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PR Obligations and Days count outside Canada with Canadian Citizen

RajGill

Star Member
Jan 3, 2013
100
0
Hi All - I will be Canadian citizen soon and my husband holds PR landed in Mar 2016 who is on H1 B so never stayed in Canada expect the visitor visits which could be close 3 months. So, definitely he has not yet met PR obligation of 730 days which needs to be fulfilled till July 2021.

1. Since, his day counts will start soon as he will be accompanying a Canadian citizen spouse along him (soon from day I take oath?). In such situation does, his PR card will be renewed even he is short of 730 days?

2. We have to complete that 730 days to request his PR card renewal ?
3. Would he be able to maintain his PR status as long he is accompanying a Canadian spouse irrespective of meeting residency obligation?

Thanks,
Rajdeep
 

k.h.p.

VIP Member
Mar 1, 2019
8,810
2,249
Canada
1. I don't know.

2. Yes. But I would expect an intensive examination of his residency if he hasn't spent more than three months in Canada since 2016.

3. Maybe.
 

canuck_in_uk

VIP Member
May 4, 2012
31,558
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06/12
Hi All - I will be Canadian citizen soon and my husband holds PR landed in Mar 2016 who is on H1 B so never stayed in Canada expect the visitor visits which could be close 3 months. So, definitely he has not yet met PR obligation of 730 days which needs to be fulfilled till July 2021.

1. Since, his day counts will start soon as he will be accompanying a Canadian citizen spouse along him (soon from day I take oath?). In such situation does, his PR card will be renewed even he is short of 730 days?

2. We have to complete that 730 days to request his PR card renewal ?
3. Would he be able to maintain his PR status as long he is accompanying a Canadian spouse irrespective of meeting residency obligation?

Thanks,
Rajdeep
Given the fact that he never established residency in Canada and you would clearly be joining him after becoming a Canadian, there is a very good chance that IRCC would see it as circumventing the rules and not accept that the days would count.
 

RajGill

Star Member
Jan 3, 2013
100
0
I moved with him in 2015 after marriage and have been travelling on-off to complete 1095 days. So, we have been always together - will day counts will start for him once I take oath and will be able to renew his PR card next year?
 

Besram

Hero Member
Jun 13, 2019
202
115
I would not recommend renewing the PR card when it expires in July 2021. Even if IRCC accepts that he is accompanying you, this will only count once you actually have become a citizen. Remember, he must have at least 730 days of residency (or the equivalent time in accompanying you). So you should wait with applying until he has accumulated 730 days of accompanying you since you became a citizen.

This is the best case scenario.

However:

@canuck_in_uk has brought up a different issue, which is the question of who is accompanying whom. I am not an expert on this topic, but my understanding is that in certain cases it does matter. In your case, it sure sounds like you are accompanying him, and not the other way around. This could be a problem.

Bottom line: your case is not straight-forward. It may make sense to get some legal advice.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,279
3,040
Hi All - I will be Canadian citizen soon and my husband holds PR landed in Mar 2016 who is on H1 B so never stayed in Canada expect the visitor visits which could be close 3 months. So, definitely he has not yet met PR obligation of 730 days which needs to be fulfilled till July 2021.

1. Since, his day counts will start soon as he will be accompanying a Canadian citizen spouse along him (soon from day I take oath?). In such situation does, his PR card will be renewed even he is short of 730 days?

2. We have to complete that 730 days to request his PR card renewal ?
3. Would he be able to maintain his PR status as long he is accompanying a Canadian spouse irrespective of meeting residency obligation?

Thanks,
Rajdeep
The situation is likely more complicated than you appear to understand, and in regards to some aspects there is a clear misunderstanding.

The latter first: misunderstanding the PR Residency Obligation during the first five years:

If he landed in Mar 2016, his first five year Residency Obligation period is Mar 2016 to Mar 2021, NOT to July 2021. That is, he only has until Mar 2021 to meet the requirement that he is present in Canada for at least 730 days during his first five years. Reminder: the first five years runs from date of landing to the fifth year anniversary of that day . . . . you appear to be looking at the expiration date of his PR card, which is NOT what matters, not what counts.

To put this in perspective, unless he has been IN Canada at least 315 days since his landing, he is already in BREACH of the PR Residency Obligation. This is because there are not enough days left between now and March 31, 2021 for him to get to 730 by then unless he has already been IN Canada at least 315 days. Another way to do the calculation, which I find to be easier, is to count how many days he has been absent from Canada: if he has been outside Canada more than 1096 days since the day he landed, he is already in breach of the RO.

You suggest he has been in Canada a total of maybe 90 days (three months) or so. If this is all he has been in Canada, he is already well in breach of the RO and he is at risk of being issued a Departure Order for inadmissibility any time he is examined at a Port-of-Entry.


RENEWING the PR CARD:

"2. We have to complete that 730 days to request his PR card renewal ?"​

To be eligible for a new PR card, the PR must be in compliance with the PR RO. There does not appear to be any scenario in which he will meet this eligibility requirement before the end of 2021 at the soonest, since he has already been outside Canada more than 1096 days (more than 1300 days it appears) in the last four years and the date of landing.

Note, the way the PR Residency Obligation (RO) works it can never be "completed" as such. Some look at the first five year obligation as if the new PR can, in a way, "complete" the RO, but that is not how it really works. At this stage, since he is already in breach of the RO and it will be late in 2021, at the very soonest, before he could possibly be in compliance with the RO, there is no point in further explaining the first five year calculation.

For him, he will need to have at least 730 days credit toward the RO based on the five year time period before the date of the PR card application. Or any other time he might be examined (such as at a PoE when returning to Canada).

Thus, for him, what will matter is getting enough credit to add up to 730 days WITHIN the PREVIOUS FIVE YEARS and do this BEFORE making an application for a new PR card. Which, again, is not even possible until near the end of 2021 at the soonest.


CREDIT FOR TIME ABROAD LIVING WITH CANADIAN CITIZEN SPOUSE:

This is where it gets more complicated. As others have already suggested, it is NOT for-sure that he will even be given credit toward the PR Residency Obligation for time you are living together abroad AFTER you become a Canadian citizen.

Obviously, he will NOT be given credit toward complying with the PR RO for time living with you abroad BEFORE you become a Canadian citizen. After all, during that period of time there is no way he could be "accompanying a Canadian citizen who is [his] spouse," since his spouse was not a Canadian citizen during that time.

BUT even AFTER you become a Canadian citizen, the situation does NOT meet the qualifying criteria for the accompanying-a-Canadian-citizen-spouse credit according to what representatives of the Minister have been arguing before the Immigration Appeal Division in numerous cases. Nor does it under any of the last three published IAD decisions regarding this issue.

Who-accompanied-whom is not even an issue if neither of you accompanied the other. Which it appears is your situation.

I recently posted links to two cases in which IAD panels ruled that who-accompanied-whom does not matter (note: the Minister argued in both those cases that it does matter) :

In'Airat v Canada (Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness), 2019 CanLII 124093 (CA IRB), http://canlii.ca/t/j4cls

Jiang v Canada (Citizenship and Immigration), 2019 CanLII 128447 (CA IRB), http://canlii.ca/t/j4wmz

BUT both of those IAD panels REJECTED the view that just living together will qualify for the accompanying-a-Canadian-citizen-spouse credit. Both those IAD panels ruled that the couple needs to have moved abroad either together or about the same time. (You appear to assert you have been living together these last four years . . . that seems likely to be a hard sell if you were in Canada for more than three of those years while he was only in Canada three months).

In the meantime, in that post I also referenced and linked a decision in which the IAD panel did rule that who-accompanied-whom does matter and the that credit is only available where the Canadian citizen "is the primary person or the cause for being outside Canada." See Gehrke v Canada (Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness), 2019 CanLII 124068 (CA IRB), http://canlii.ca/t/j4cms

For that post and discussion, see the topic linked by @Besram and go to the last page . . . which should link here: https://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/threads/who-accompanied-whom-can-matter-for-prs-living-with-citizen-spouse-abroad-update.579860/page-5


HOW IT WILL ACTUALLY GO I CANNOT FORECAST:

There is clearly wide variability in how things actually go for different individuals in different factual situations. Will he be issued a 44(1) Report and Departure Order the next time he arrives at a PoE coming to Canada? Or the time after that? Very, very difficult to forecast. BUT he is for sure AT RISK. He is clearly NOW in breach of the RO. And even if you live together and he gets credit for days after you become a citizen, it will take at least twenty-one more months, plus some, for him to get back into compliance.

BUT it is far from certain that he will be allowed credit toward the RO for time you live with him abroad after you become a citizen.
 
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canuck_in_uk

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May 4, 2012
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I moved with him in 2015 after marriage and have been travelling on-off to complete 1095 days. So, we have been always together - will day counts will start for him once I take oath and will be able to renew his PR card next year?
You haven't always been together if you have spent 3 years in Canada.
 
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armoured

VIP Member
Feb 1, 2015
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Hi All - I will be Canadian citizen soon and my husband holds PR landed in Mar 2016 who is on H1 B so never stayed in Canada expect the visitor visits which could be close 3 months. So, definitely he has not yet met PR obligation of 730 days which needs to be fulfilled till July 2021.
Just to note, if you are a citizen or your PR status in full compliance including with residency obligation (and you will stay in Canada), it is possible for you to sponsor him anew under family class/spouse (should he actually lose his existing PR status).

Obviously there are costs and issues with this approach as well. But it is an option that may be feasible in your case. I think others can comment, but the fact that he was a PR before and lost that status should not negatively affect his application. (Assuming no other significant issues)
 
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canuck78

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Jun 18, 2017
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Just to note, if you are a citizen or your PR status in full compliance including with residency obligation (and you will stay in Canada), it is possible for you to sponsor him anew under family class/spouse (should he actually lose his existing PR status).

Obviously there are costs and issues with this approach as well. But it is an option that may be feasible in your case. I think others can comment, but the fact that he was a PR before and lost that status should not negatively affect his application. (Assuming no other significant issues)
Think the major issue is that they don’t intend to return to Canada anytime soon which they would need to prove and the evidence required has become very strict. It sounds like both have only been working for US employers for some time although one may have been working remotely for some of the time. The evidence that they will be returning to Canada would need to be significant.
 
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Wolfpmd3

Champion Member
Apr 26, 2015
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He hasn't met his PR obligations. As of now, we won't be able to do so either. So this is what's going to happen:

  1. He will remain a PR, he won't lose his status automatically.
  2. He will not be able to enter Canada nor get a new PR card or get a PR travel document.
  3. If he ever wants to enter Canada, he'll have two choices:
  • Voluntarily renounce his PR status and then reapply for PR either through spousal sponsorship or Express Entry. The former is of course the faster since sponsorship can easily take between 1-2 years and you'll have to be living in Canada to be able to Sponsor him.
  • Apply to have his case reviewed so that he can keep his PR status without having met his PR obligations. (Since he'll be accompanying you for less than those 760 days he needs, don't event dream this'll help his case) - - > this option which could take years will mean that while he has this assessed he will be unable to enter Canada or fill any application for PR or TRV.

Bottomline, it's very unlikely we'll be able to continue to be a Canadian PR and he'll have to start from scratch as a foreign immigrant.
 

Wolfpmd3

Champion Member
Apr 26, 2015
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I would not recommend renewing the PR card when it expires in July 2021. Even if IRCC accepts that he is accompanying you, this will only count once you actually have become a citizen. Remember, he must have at least 730 days of residency (or the equivalent time in accompanying you). So you should wait with applying until he has accumulated 730 days of accompanying you since you became a citizen.

This is the best case scenario.

However:

@canuck_in_uk has brought up a different issue, which is the question of who is accompanying whom. I am not an expert on this topic, but my understanding is that in certain cases it does matter. In your case, it sure sounds like you are accompanying him, and not the other way around. This could be a problem.

Bottom line: your case is not straight-forward. It may make sense to get some legal advice.
I disagree no legal advice is needed.
It's pretty straight forward, once his PR expires he won't be able to renew it and he won't ever be allowed to enter Canada as a PR unless he Voluntarily renounces his PR status and regains status by following the process again (either through express entry or family sponsorship)
 

canuck78

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Jun 18, 2017
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I disagree no legal advice is needed.
It's pretty straight forward, once his PR expires he won't be able to renew it and he won't ever be allowed to enter Canada as a PR unless he Voluntarily renounces his PR status and regains status by following the process again (either through express entry or family sponsorship)
Think the fundamental issue is there is no intention to actually return to Canada anytime soon.
 
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armoured

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Feb 1, 2015
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Think the major issue is that they don’t intend to return to Canada anytime soon which they would need to prove and the evidence required has become very strict. It sounds like both have only been working for US employers for some time although one may have been working remotely for some of the time. The evidence that they will be returning to Canada would need to be significant.
I agree mostly. As someone else here wrote, "Think the fundamental issue is there is no intention to actually return to Canada anytime soon."

So yes, there is a contradiction here between the desire to retain PR status (as currently even if not in compliance), not live in Canada on a permanent basis (as defined by IRCC practices and law), and work in the USA presumably full time.

I only meant to point out that if/when they wish to live in Canada full-time (acc to info provided in this thread), it is possible to re-apply.
 
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canuck78

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Jun 18, 2017
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I agree mostly. As someone else here wrote, "Think the fundamental issue is there is no intention to actually return to Canada anytime soon."

So yes, there is a contradiction here between the desire to retain PR status (as currently even if not in compliance), not live in Canada on a permanent basis (as defined by IRCC practices and law), and work in the USA presumably full time.

I only meant to point out that if/when they wish to live in Canada full-time (acc to info provided in this thread), it is possible to re-apply.
Assume the goal is to obtain TN visas if the woman returned to live in Canada while continuing to work for the US employer and has/is returned/returning to the US.