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PR expiring while stuck abroad

Jadran1

Newbie
Feb 21, 2021
9
0
Hello. First post here.
I have PR, have lived in Canada 7 years, working succesfully for myself the last 3 years.
Went snowbirding to the Philippines November 2019 for 3 months. Got stuck because of Covid ( closed borders here). Did not want to travel anyway (61, asthma). Started contacting IRCC November last year but have only received 2 generic, non case- specific, replies by email.
This are my problems;
- PR- card expires end March.
- I am running/ have run out of days in Canada.
- IRCC refuses to reply to webmail- form or email.
-,I cannot fill out application forms; Adobe does open the PDF forms on my chromebook, even in Linux. Nobody here has a Microsoft or Apple.
- I still own that little business. How does that work with visa?
Canadavisa, when messaged, said that I should contact IRCC directly- but that is exactly my problem, see above.

I basically need knowledgeble advise on how to proceed. I have enough money to sit it out quite a while, am not begging, just don't want to lose my status ( am originally Dutch but have no ties to that country anymore).
I should have returned sooner, I know- but hindsight is easy.

Sensible replies are greatly appreciated.
 
 

canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
47,006
11,159
Hello. First post here.
I have PR, have lived in Canada 7 years, working succesfully for myself the last 3 years.
Went snowbirding to the Philippines November 2019 for 3 months. Got stuck because of Covid ( closed borders here). Did not want to travel anyway (61, asthma). Started contacting IRCC November last year but have only received 2 generic, non case- specific, replies by email.
This are my problems;
- PR- card expires end March.
- I am running/ have run out of days in Canada.
- IRCC refuses to reply to webmail- form or email.
-,I cannot fill out application forms; Adobe does open the PDF forms on my chromebook, even in Linux. Nobody here has a Microsoft or Apple.
- I still own that little business. How does that work with visa?
Canadavisa, when messaged, said that I should contact IRCC directly- but that is exactly my problem, see above.

I basically need knowledgeble advise on how to proceed. I have enough money to sit it out quite a while, am not begging, just don't want to lose my status ( am originally Dutch but have no ties to that country anymore).
I should have returned sooner, I know- but hindsight is easy.

Sensible replies are greatly appreciated.
Do you still meet your RO? When will you no longer be compliant with your RO? Assume you still have a home in Canada that is ready for you to return to.
 

MidoRafa

Star Member
Jul 5, 2012
199
40
Hello. First post here.
I have PR, have lived in Canada 7 years, working succesfully for myself the last 3 years.
Went snowbirding to the Philippines November 2019 for 3 months. Got stuck because of Covid ( closed borders here). Did not want to travel anyway (61, asthma). Started contacting IRCC November last year but have only received 2 generic, non case- specific, replies by email.
This are my problems;
- PR- card expires end March.
- I am running/ have run out of days in Canada.
- IRCC refuses to reply to webmail- form or email.
-,I cannot fill out application forms; Adobe does open the PDF forms on my chromebook, even in Linux. Nobody here has a Microsoft or Apple.
- I still own that little business. How does that work with visa?
Canadavisa, when messaged, said that I should contact IRCC directly- but that is exactly my problem, see above.

I basically need knowledgeble advise on how to proceed. I have enough money to sit it out quite a while, am not begging, just don't want to lose my status ( am originally Dutch but have no ties to that country anymore).
I should have returned sooner, I know- but hindsight is easy.

Sensible replies are greatly appreciated.
There is nothing IRCC can do for you preemptively (they can't give you an exemption from the rules/law, can't act on an expiring card unless you submit a renewal application, etc.), hence the non-specific replies you're getting from them. They would probably advise you to return ASAP, and remind you of the Residency Obligation (RO) of the PR (730 days of residence in the last 5 years).
The only two things you can do at this point:
Option 1: return to Canada before your PR card expires. Even if you're "running/ have run out of days" (= in violation of RO), they may very well cut you some slack at the borders due to the pandemic, your age and health condition, how many days are off, officer not even noticing/asking, etc. There are obviously mandatory testing and quarantine plans that will be in effect and which you'll have to comply with.

Option 2: if your card expires while you're away, you will have to apply for a PRTD (you can't apply for card renewal if you're outside the country). At which point you will have to list your days of presence and absence and they will -probably- do the math, and you may wish to mention your health concerns in that application somehow. If approved then all is well and good and you can return to Canada, but may have to wait before you renew your PR card until you're compliant with the RO again.
If, on the other hand, you get denied you could apply for Humanitarian and Compassionate consideration based on your circumstances. Others may be able to chime in on the specifics of that.
There's an option 2b that some people choose/can do which is to enter Canada on an expired PR card from a land border (from the US). A PRTD is not required in that case, but you'd have to be able to fly to and enter the US and continue onwards to Canada by road. You'll probably still be questioned at the borders, but again, given your and the global situation they may just turn a blind eye to the RO violation, but you'd still have to comply with all covid-related protocols and procedures in place at the time of course.

Good luck.
 
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canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
47,006
11,159
There is nothing IRCC can do for you preemptively (they can't give you an exemption from the rules/law, can't act on an expiring card unless you submit a renewal application, etc.), hence the non-specific replies you're getting from them. They would probably advise you to return ASAP, and remind you of the Residency Obligation (RO) of the PR (730 days of residence in the last 5 years).
The only two things you can do at this point:
Option 1: return to Canada before your PR card expires. Even if you're "running/ have run out of days" (= in violation of RO), they may very well cut you some slack at the borders due to the pandemic, your age and health condition, how many days are off, officer not even noticing/asking, etc. There are obviously mandatory testing and quarantine plans that will be in effect and which you'll have to comply with.

Option 2: if your card expires while you're away, you will have to apply for a PRTD (you can't apply for card renewal if you're outside the country). At which point you will have to list your days of presence and absence and they will -probably- do the math, and you may wish to mention your health concerns in that application somehow. If approved then all is well and good and you can return to Canada, but may have to wait before you renew your PR card until you're compliant with the RO again.
If, on the other hand, you get denied you could apply for Humanitarian and Compassionate consideration based on your circumstances. Others may be able to chime in on the specifics of that.
There's an option 2b that some people choose/can do which is to enter Canada on an expired PR card from a land border (from the US). A PRTD is not required in that case, but you'd have to be able to fly to and enter the US and continue onwards to Canada by road. You'll probably still be questioned at the borders, but again, given your and the global situation they may just turn a blind eye to the RO violation, but you'd still have to comply with all covid-related protocols and procedures in place at the time of course.

Good luck.

If you don’t meet your RO you should jump straight to the PRTD based on H&C and not apply for a normal PRTD
 
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scylla

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Jun 8, 2010
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Hello. First post here.
I have PR, have lived in Canada 7 years, working succesfully for myself the last 3 years.
Went snowbirding to the Philippines November 2019 for 3 months. Got stuck because of Covid ( closed borders here). Did not want to travel anyway (61, asthma). Started contacting IRCC November last year but have only received 2 generic, non case- specific, replies by email.
This are my problems;
- PR- card expires end March.
- I am running/ have run out of days in Canada.
- IRCC refuses to reply to webmail- form or email.
-,I cannot fill out application forms; Adobe does open the PDF forms on my chromebook, even in Linux. Nobody here has a Microsoft or Apple.
- I still own that little business. How does that work with visa?
Canadavisa, when messaged, said that I should contact IRCC directly- but that is exactly my problem, see above.

I basically need knowledgeble advise on how to proceed. I have enough money to sit it out quite a while, am not begging, just don't want to lose my status ( am originally Dutch but have no ties to that country anymore).
I should have returned sooner, I know- but hindsight is easy.

Sensible replies are greatly appreciated.
It's not clear what you mean by "I am running out of days in Canada". If you mean that you no longer meet the residency requirement or soon won't meet the residency requirement, then you need to make it a top priority to return to Canada before your PR card expires.

If your PR card expires while you are outside of Canada, then you would need to apply for a PR Travel Document to return. If you don't meet the residency requirement at the time you apply for the PRTD, then you will have to ask for H&C consideration and will be rolling the dice on whether that's accepted or IRCC moves to revoke your PR status.

Returning to Canada before the expiry of your PR card is the safest option if keeping your PR status is a priority for you.

Contacting IRCC won't help you or change any of the above.

Your business in Canada doesn't help you either unfortunately.
 

Jadran1

Newbie
Feb 21, 2021
9
0
Thanks to everybody who replied. Appreciated.

I am still a bit stuck, not in the least because of the new quarantine measures. I also have problems collecting data for my travel history in time. An explanation; i am long haul crossborder trucker, which means I have a lot of travel history and many days in the USA. Through my logs I have most data- but 2016 is lacking. I do not have paper logs from that period here with me. My former neighbour is trying to find them, but they will have to be sent to me, and I also put in a request with US- customs.
I will however most likely not have the required 730 days.
Questions;
- There is a rule that says time spent abroad can count against the 730 days when you work for a Canadian company. Could that help, or is that specifically for detachments abroad?
- will my days be counted and i possibly refused entry when I enter Canada on a valid PR- card?
- is there a possibility to explain my situation in writing? If so, to whom?
- I still have no solution for the software- problem (the required Adobe- version- 10 or higher- not working on my Chromebook), that prevents me from opening and filling out IRCC- forms.
Getting quite desperate, to be honest
 

armoured

VIP Member
Feb 1, 2015
12,056
6,086
Thanks to everybody who replied. Appreciated.

I am still a bit stuck, not in the least because of the new quarantine measures. I also have problems collecting data for my travel history in time. An explanation; i am long haul crossborder trucker, which means I have a lot of travel history and many days in the USA. Through my logs I have most data- but 2016 is lacking. I do not have paper logs from that period here with me. My former neighbour is trying to find them, but they will have to be sent to me, and I also put in a request with US- customs.
I will however most likely not have the required 730 days.
Questions;
- There is a rule that says time spent abroad can count against the 730 days when you work for a Canadian company. Could that help, or is that specifically for detachments abroad?
- will my days be counted and i possibly refused entry when I enter Canada on a valid PR- card?
- is there a possibility to explain my situation in writing? If so, to whom?
- I still have no solution for the software- problem (the required Adobe- version- 10 or higher- not working on my Chromebook), that prevents me from opening and filling out IRCC- forms.
Getting quite desperate, to be honest
Respectfully, I believe you are over-thinking this. It's not even clear which IRCC forms you are attempting to fill out.

If you return to Canada as soon as possible - and definitely before your PR card expires - you will have many more options and a reasonable likelihood of being able to retain your PR status and get compliant with the residency obligation (given enough time).

If you are desperate, your absolute best, most simple action is to return to Canada as soon as possible.

To attempt to answer some of your questions:
-if you return before your PR card expires, you will NOT be refused entry. One of two things will likely happen:

1) You are admitted with no formal report started on your non-compliance with residency obligation. Basically the CBSA officer at port of entry asks you questions and potentially just waves you through, or asks more questions, or they go through a more detailed examination and (again, potentially) decide to be lenient and let you through with no formal process started. (Here you would verbally explain your circumstances, if asked, that travel restrictions and your health concerns and changing rules etc made it hard for you to return. If you have documentation of anything germane, you could show those as well. They are required to consider such factors)

While no-one can say in advance how this will go, there is a good chance that at the border - when you answer truthfully that you originally departed planning to leave only for several months and covid meant you stayed longer, etc - that you will simply be admitted without anything more substantive than a warning to you that you are currently out of compliance and a note to file. In effect, you're being given a chance to get back in compliance. In this case you remain in Canada until you are compliant again with the residency obligation and apply for renewal of your PR card. (Residency obligation counted in only most recent five-year window so your 2016 days will begin to drop out of your calculation - which at minimum will make the lack of records less of a problem, but you'll also lose some of the days you were present in Canada in 2016 for RO purposes). Note, you can live in Canada and do almost everything without a currently-valid PR card (travelling abroad the biggest issue).

2) You are formally reported and the process started of potentially revoking your PR status. You can live and work in Canada while this is proceeding, including right to appeal and the appeal process. Again, no-one can tell you how an appeal will go, but they will also be required to consider the covid-related issues and you seem to have real reasons why travelling back to Canada would be difficult and potentially unsafe. (This would be the point at which you would actually have an opportunity to explain situation in writing). Obviously if appeal lost, much more complicated, but deal with that later.

In comparison: if you remain outside of Canada and your PR card expires, you'll have no choice but to apply for a PR travel document, and that may be much harder to get without being in compliance with RO. (Not impossible, but harder)
 
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jddd

Champion Member
Oct 1, 2017
1,522
564
I cannot fill out application forms; Adobe does open the PDF forms on my chromebook, even in Linux. Nobody here has a Microsoft or Apple.

I have enough money to sit it out quite a while
Where in the Philippines are you? Windows and Apple computers are the most widely used computers in the Philippines. There are a lot of internet cafes there too who all use Windows PCs.

If you have enough money, you may consider also just buying what you need. Before you do, try to save the form on your desktop, right click on it and open with Acrobat.
 
 

armoured

VIP Member
Feb 1, 2015
12,056
6,086
Where in the Philippines are you? Windows and Apple computers are the most widely used computers in the Philippines. There are a lot of internet cafes there too who all use Windows PCs.

If you have enough money, you may consider also just buying what you need. Before you do, try to save the form on your desktop, right click on it and open with Acrobat.
This is correct of course in that you'll need a Mac or windows machine (or possibly some Linux variants, don't know).

But before getting into those weeds - what application form and why? Still haven't heard what form OP is attempting to complete.

Best solution is to get on a plane. No acrobat needed at all. (As far as I'm aware)
 

jddd

Champion Member
Oct 1, 2017
1,522
564
This is correct of course in that you'll need a Mac or windows machine (or possibly some Linux variants, don't know).

But before getting into those weeds - what application form and why? Still haven't heard what form OP is attempting to complete.

Best solution is to get on a plane. No acrobat needed at all. (As far as I'm aware)
I agree, I was just trying to answer his question about the forms since everyone else already provided the best options to the RO concern.
 
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armoured

VIP Member
Feb 1, 2015
12,056
6,086
I agree, I was just trying to answer his question about the forms since everyone else already provided the best options to the RO concern.
Apologies, I didn't mean that to sound like a criticism of your assistance - just to emphasize to the original poster that there's no sense getting bogged down in the technical issue of how to fill out forms when the question at hand is what forms and why. (Notably because I have a tendency to do this myself)
 
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Jadran1

Newbie
Feb 21, 2021
9
0
Hello again.

On the questions about Adobe anD forms: I was trying to see the various required forms for renewal of the PR card, and the application for a PRTD. None will open.
Jddd, I am in Southern Leyte , Padre Burgos to be exact. The local computer cafe has closed, and if you don't believe me when I say that the few people here who have ( mainly borrowed from employers) laptops have Chromebooks I can't help it. This is a poor province; you're not going to buy a desktop on 9000 or less peso salary per month, also because hardware is simply expensive.
I do find it strange that IRCC, knowing about the Adobe on Chromebook- issues, refuses to act. Worse even, on their website they give outdated and therefore false information about it. 'Use another computer', is the best they could tell me when I asked for help.
 
 

Jadran1

Newbie
Feb 21, 2021
9
0
On my return; I am thinking that ship has sailed. I almost certainly don't have enough days; if I return now, it will take some 14 months before I am at the required 730 days treshhold. I will be trucking again; every thorough inspection on the road will be a risk, and I won't be able to do crossborder work, which is the vast majority of what my employer does.
Also, ideally I wanted to work in Canada in the summer and be in the Philippines in winter. That of course won't work either.
Lastly, the entry restrictions ( together with air fare prices, which have more than doubled) are making a return prohibitively expensive and difficult. And I am serious about the Covid- risk: I really do not fancy air travel at this moment, something even IRCC will agree with I guess.
 

Jadran1

Newbie
Feb 21, 2021
9
0
I thank all who have replied. You have helped me make up my mind. I am not happy with the result, but I can only blame myself.
My problem is that I have no ties anymore with The Netherlands, and at my age I won't find a job there. I am okay staying in The Philippines, my only fear is that Duterte one day will decide to kick all old white guys out, or something like that. If I live like a poor Philippino, something I have no problems with, I will manage until I formally retire for Dutch law at 68. ( the $100 or so CPP- money will help).
Ann I can of course always visit as a tourist...