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Planning to enter w soon to expire PR card. Please advice, help please

crazy123

Full Member
Jul 12, 2014
24
0
Folks,

I am am currently in US and planning to enter Canada soon. I do have a valid PR card but unfortunately I am woo fully shot of meeting RO. But I do want to enter Canada for good some how. I need all the advice you can on the following points.
1. Whats the best way to enter in this situation air or land (I prefer air as of now).?

2. Which city. In the past I have always gone to VC but for job prospectus reasons I am planning to enter via Toronto? But the question is which city I should enter via? I am open to any city. I want safe entry

3. What is the best time to land at PoE?

4. In the past I have been referred to an officer who checked the details and then let me in (but that time I was meeting RO). However still now so many people have told me about a possibility of entering w/o secondary checking just based on the electronic entry via Kiosk? Can you please advise me here. How do I ensure that I don't have to confront an officer.

5. Bottom line I want to somehow touch down in Canada without triggering any secondary inquiry. Please tell me how I can do it?

6. God forbid, but in case there is section 44 inquiry, what are my options? I still have a work permit for USA valid for significant time. But I really want to settle down in Canada. If there is section 44 inquiry, should I still go ahead and stay there? What are the available options?

You don't have to answer all questions, just give me your 2 cents on any questions you can. Thank you so much in advance everyone.
 

Besram

Star Member
Jun 13, 2019
55
13
Folks,

I am am currently in US and planning to enter Canada soon. I do have a valid PR card but unfortunately I am woo fully shot of meeting RO. But I do want to enter Canada for good some how. I need all the advice you can on the following points.
1. Whats the best way to enter in this situation air or land (I prefer air as of now).?

2. Which city. In the past I have always gone to VC but for job prospectus reasons I am planning to enter via Toronto? But the question is which city I should enter via? I am open to any city. I want safe entry

3. What is the best time to land at PoE?

4. In the past I have been referred to an officer who checked the details and then let me in (but that time I was meeting RO). However still now so many people have told me about a possibility of entering w/o secondary checking just based on the electronic entry via Kiosk? Can you please advise me here. How do I ensure that I don't have to confront an officer.

5. Bottom line I want to somehow touch down in Canada without triggering any secondary inquiry. Please tell me how I can do it?

6. God forbid, but in case there is section 44 inquiry, what are my options? I still have a work permit for USA valid for significant time. But I really want to settle down in Canada. If there is section 44 inquiry, should I still go ahead and stay there? What are the available options?

You don't have to answer all questions, just give me your 2 cents on any questions you can. Thank you so much in advance everyone.
Suggest doing a search on this form first before asking extensive questions. All these questions have been answered many times.


1) Impossible to say. There is no data on who gets reported where, only anecdotal evidence. Just do what is most convenient.

2) There is some data on this in this article: https://www.thestar.com/news/immigration/2017/01/18/about-1400-immigrants-a-year-ordered-removed-from-canada-for-residency-non-compliance.html

Bottom line: avoid Montreal airport.

3) Again, impossible to say. Logic might suggest during busy times, but then again they may just ramp up their staffing so it may not make a difference. Again, do what is convenient and cost-efficient.

4) Even with an electronic kiosk, you will still meet an officer who may ask you additional questions. There is no way to avoid seeing an officer altogether.

5) Once you are in breach of your residency obligation, there is no safe way to guarantee not being reported. Your best bet is to show up at a point of entry, be friendly and honest about your situation (misrepresentation will make it much worse) and hope for the best.

6) Consult a lawyer and appeal the decision if you believe you have any H&C grounds. You will be allowed to remain in Canada with full working rights until your appeal is decided, which often takes longer than year.
 
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Bs65

VIP Member
Mar 22, 2016
11,218
1,854
Just to add to (5) sounds obvious but only answer questions asked by CBSA do not volunteer any extra information. If you get asked how long you been away be honest and answer given not being honest of course makes things worse.

If by chance you do not get asked then great but there is no need to offer up information voluntarily if not asked. Having a valid PR card could be a positive but as above ultimately just depends on luck and the CBSA officer you are in front of whether they chose to follow through or not based on your answers and demeanor when answering their questions..

Good luck
 
Last edited:

Besram

Star Member
Jun 13, 2019
55
13
Just to add to (5) sounds obvious but only answer questions asked by CBSA do not volunteer any extra information. If you get asked how long you been away be honest and answer given not being honest of course makes things worse.

If by chance you do not get asked then great but there is no need to offer up information voluntarily if not asked. Having a valid PR card could be a positive but as above ultimately just depends on luck and the CBSA officer you are in front of whether they chose to follow through or not based on your answers to their questions..

Good luck
Absolutely. It was implied in my answer, but worthwhile pointing it out.

One more suggestion for the OP:

You mention in your thread title that your PR card is about to expire. Try to get to Canada before that happens (but you probably know this already).

If your PR card is no longer valid, you will be disadvantaged in two ways:

1) you can no longer travel by air (or with any commercial carrier for that matter) because that will require a valid PR card

2) The chances of being asked additional questions at the land border (and thus the chances of being reported) will likely be higher.
 

canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
22,019
4,960
Sounds like you may be entering right before your PR expires having not spent any time in Canada. Seems crazy to move a family with kids with such a blatant violation of RO. You will have to make sure any future employer is aware that you will not be able to do any business travel outside of Canada.
 

IndianBos

Full Member
Oct 8, 2014
29
10
Category........
Visa Office......
CPC-O
NOC Code......
2174
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
19-Jun-2014
Nomination.....
16-Oct-2014
File Transfer...
11-Dec-2014
Med's Request
24-Apr-2015 (Delayed for adding a child)
Med's Done....
9-May-2015 (Updated 29-May-2015)
Interview........
N/A
Passport Req..
17-Jun-2015 (mailed 29-June-2015)
VISA ISSUED...
11-Jul-2015
LANDED..........
Soon
OK, thank you all folks. Really appreciate your help.
We entered Canada from US in Sep-2018 after being short of residency obligation by 15 days. Based on my experience:
1. Avoid land border, I think there is more scrutiny. That is my experience based on using both land crossing and airports.
2. If you get questioned in the secondary, answer truthfully. If your PR card is valid for more than 1.5 years, they will make comments on your file and let you in with a warning. Most probably you won't be reported, but you will have to avoid international travel for 2 years till you fulfill your residency obligation.
3. Be ready to explain why so much delay in moving. If you already have a job in Canada tell that to the officer. This shows you are moving here for good.
 

crazy123

Full Member
Jul 12, 2014
24
0
We entered Canada from US in Sep-2018 after being short of residency obligation by 15 days. Based on my experience:
1. Avoid land border, I think there is more scrutiny. That is my experience based on using both land crossing and airports.
2. If you get questioned in the secondary, answer truthfully. If your PR card is valid for more than 1.5 years, they will make comments on your file and let you in with a warning. Most probably you won't be reported, but you will have to avoid international travel for 2 years till you fulfill your residency obligation.
3. Be ready to explain why so much delay in moving. If you already have a job in Canada tell that to the officer. This shows you are moving here for good.
Thank you for the feedback. Really valuable for me at this stage. In my case, the issue is much more difficult, because the RO is probably not going to be met and the PR card is close to expiry. Although I am still going to take my chances and try sincerely. Hope everything works out for me :). Regards.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
4,183
1,379
Folks,

I am am currently in US and planning to enter Canada soon. I do have a valid PR card but unfortunately I am woo fully shot of meeting RO. But I do want to enter Canada for good some how. I need all the advice you can on the following points.
1. Whats the best way to enter in this situation air or land (I prefer air as of now).?

2. Which city. In the past I have always gone to VC but for job prospectus reasons I am planning to enter via Toronto? But the question is which city I should enter via? I am open to any city. I want safe entry

3. What is the best time to land at PoE?

4. In the past I have been referred to an officer who checked the details and then let me in (but that time I was meeting RO). However still now so many people have told me about a possibility of entering w/o secondary checking just based on the electronic entry via Kiosk? Can you please advise me here. How do I ensure that I don't have to confront an officer.

5. Bottom line I want to somehow touch down in Canada without triggering any secondary inquiry. Please tell me how I can do it?

6. God forbid, but in case there is section 44 inquiry, what are my options? I still have a work permit for USA valid for significant time. But I really want to settle down in Canada. If there is section 44 inquiry, should I still go ahead and stay there? What are the available options?

You don't have to answer all questions, just give me your 2 cents on any questions you can. Thank you so much in advance everyone.
The responses from other forum participants generally cover what you need to know. And I am NOT offering anything new for you in particular.

However, there are some conflicting observations offered, and some observations warranting emphasis, some warranting an expanded response, and some warranting clarification. And some I quibble with, just a bit. So I am offering some broader observations addressing this topic and related issues generally.

I will address PoE-shopping in a separate post and in some depth.

A particularly important observation that demands emphasis regards the question about how to avoid triggering any Secondary inquiry.

5) Once you are in breach of your residency obligation, there is no safe way to guarantee not being reported. Your best bet is to show up at a point of entry, be friendly and honest about your situation (misrepresentation will make it much worse) and hope for the best.
And this is worth repeating:
"Once you are in breach of your residency obligation, there is no safe way to guarantee not being reported. Your best bet is to show up at a point of entry, be friendly and honest about your situation (misrepresentation will make it much worse) and hope for the best."​

I will add that the SOONER the PR actually comes to Canada the better.

Otherwise, once a PR is in breach the RISK of a referral to Secondary is at least real and substantial. We can discuss a number of factors which can increase or decrease the risk, but the key factors are obvious:
-- the less in breach, the better
-- the more recent the PR was last in Canada, the better
-- presenting a valid PR card is better than not having a valid PR card
-- PRs still within the first five years of landing appear to be allowed more leniency
-- the individual PR's credibility​

By the time a PR who has been living abroad is prepared to actually return to Canada, most of those key factors are set, and the PR's personal credibility is about the only big factor which the PR can control.

In regards to the latter, the all-important factor of maintaining credibility, it is true (as many will say) that it is best to simply, directly, and honestly answer questions asked by CBSA without volunteering any extra information. BUT it is also important to NOT appear evasive (that is, to NOT be evasive but also to avoid *appearing* to be evasive). Border officials tend to ask some open-ended questions and Canadians in particular often phrase questions in a way which is asking for more than or even something somewhat different than a literal answer. So it is important to be forthright and forthcoming, to respond to what the officer is asking without being cryptic or at all evasive, and definitely avoid being misleading in any way (most of us know how to state truths which can be misleading; a PoE examination is NO time to get cute in this regard; in particular, as @Bs65 and many others say, "be honest," which is more than just stating what is true).
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
4,183
1,379
RE: Which PoE is Better (PoE-shopping)?


1. Whats the best way to enter in this situation air or land (I prefer air as of now).?

1) Impossible to say. There is no data on who gets reported where, only anecdotal evidence. Just do what is most convenient.

2) There is some data on this in this article: https://www.thestar.com/news/immigration/2017/01/18/about-1400-immigrants-a-year-ordered-removed-from-canada-for-residency-non-compliance.html

Bottom line: avoid Montreal airport.
The Star article is dated information, more than three years old, and the data referenced in it largely relates to years well before that, to more than a year BEFORE Trudeau formed a majority Liberal government back in 2015, and thus derives from a period of time when, under PM Harper, and Ministers Kenney and then Alexander, Canada was significantly, if not dramatically, elevating scrutiny and enforcement of the PR Residency Obligation. But the link to this information is very much appreciated (I rarely read the The Star even though it has more than its share of informative articles related to immigration, most of which however tend to be largely opinion not hard information; some, however, such as this one, do report hard information, and since I do not recall seeing this one in particular, the link really is very much appreciated).

At the very least the data cited in the article illustrates that YES, CBSA is screening and examining returning PRs for RO compliance, and reporting a rather significant number of PRs who have failed to comply with the RO when they arrive at a PoE.

[Interesting sidebar: article cites numbers of Departure Order appeals, and who did so successfully, comparing 2008 numbers and 2014 numbers; these numbers clearly illustrate the significantly elevated scrutiny and stricter enforcement implemented in the years between Harper's earlier minority government years and late in his majority government years. There is another article, which should link here, which similarly illustrates a dramatic increase in the number of PRs losing PR status between very early in Harper's time as PM (2006) and later (2011), further showing the extent to which Canada increased scrutiny and implemented stricter RO enforcement.]

This reinforces the conventional wisdom often observed in this forum: once a PR is in breach of the RO, there is a real and significant RISK of losing PR status, and in particular a real and substantial RISK the PR will be Reported and issued a Departure Order upon arrival at a PoE.

That article reports (as of 2014) an approximate AVERAGE of 1400 PRs being "intercepted at the border each year and ordered removed from the country for not fulfilling their residency obligations." And, it appears, less than 100 of those PRs will successfully appeal the 44(1) Report and Departure Order (1413 issued Departure Order in 2014; of the 1008 appeals that year, only 78 were successful). This looks like real enforcement, and fairly strict enforcement.

This information is very illuminating even though it leaves open major gaps in relevant data, particularly contextual data such as the number of PRs who are waived through without being examined as to RO compliance, or the number of such PRs waived through despite failing to comply with the RO. BUT the article does offer some data as to a couple particular Ports of Entry, comparing the number of Departure Orders (for breach of RO) issued in the airports for Montreal versus Toronto. However, here again this difference lacks contextual data so we do not know if the respective numbers are proportional to the overall number of PRs arriving at those Ports of Entry from abroad.

But here again, conventional wisdom appears to be reinforced, as it has been widely and long reported that Quebec Ports of Entry appear to be more strict, both in terms of screening RO compliance and in deciding who is Reported and issued a Departure Order (also called a "Removal Order").

Note, however, I ordinarily steer clear of these sorts of observations. In part I do not want to contribute to PoE-shopping; I do not condone let alone offer guidance about how to manipulate Canada's immigration system. However there are also pragmatic reasons for this.

In particular, as I noted above, there are many other factors which will have far more influence in how it goes when a returning PR arrives at a PoE. And even if Quebec Ports of Entry tend to be more strict, those other factors are still what will most likely influence (1) whether there is RO compliance questioning, and (2) if so, whether that results in being Reported.

Leading to . . . the observation numbered 1 in a recent post by @IndianBos. Note: observations numbered 2 and 3 in the post by @IndianBos are very good observations well worth making and emphasizing, with one clarification. How long a returning PR in breach of the RO should avoid international travel can be up to 2 years, but may also be significantly less; what matters is that the PR avoid international travel until the PR is in full compliance with the Residency Obligation (which can be significantly less than two years if the PR has spent much time in Canada in the previous three or four years) and even then only travel abroad if the PR can readily show he or she is in compliance with the RO on the date the PR returns to Canada (remembering that days in Canada more than five years prior to the date the PR arrives at the PoE NO LONGER COUNT toward RO compliance).

Observation numbered 1 in the post by @IndianBos, however, is at least potentially confusing.

"1. Avoid land border, I think there is more scrutiny. That is my experience based on using both land crossing and airports."​

Generally there are many other factors, other than which PoE is used, which have more influence in the level of scrutiny a PR encounters at a PoE. There is no where near enough statistically reliable information to discern any advantage or disadvantage in using a land or airport PoE for the return to Canada. With some exceptions. Smaller, less busy land border crossings appear to scrutinize irregular travelers more (which is probably more about the irregularity than it is about how busy the that crossing is -- smaller, less busy crossings are obviously smaller and less busy because they are primarily local crossing points and NOT mainstream travel routes). And Quebec. And for Quebec this appears to apply to both a land crossing as well as an airport PoE.

For a PR whose PR card is expired, however, many will suggest it is better to travel to the U.S. and approach re-entering Canada at a land crossing PoE. The reason for this is not that there is less scrutiny at a land crossing PoE but because this avoids making a PR Travel Document application. There are many indications that PR TD applications are indeed more thoroughly scrutinized for Residency Obligation compliance than is done at a PoE. It is not that the land crossing PoE is a better re-entry point, but rather about the ability to travel to the land crossing PoE without first obtaining a PR TD.

Beyond that, of course CBSA officials are not nearly so slow or dim witted as some might characterize them. No particular genius is required to have questions about WHY a particular PR is using this or that land crossing when that seems to be a route taking the traveler out of the way. So, when someone flying from Asia goes through the U.S. and travels to a border crossing near Buffalo, N.Y., it is totally natural to wonder why this route given the availability of faster more direct routes, and probably less expensive routes. Or even flying to Seattle and taking the not so short land route to B.C. and Vancouver.

Which brings this around to an off-the-mark, albeit persistent observation in this forum, suggesting how it goes at the PoE depends a lot on "luck." NOT REALLY. Luck has rather little to do with it. There are all sorts of clues and indicators which can alert CBSA personnel there is reason to ask more questions, do more probing, to expand the inquiry to include questions about RO compliance. The PR's situation, the particular details, matter.
 
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