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Physical presence calculator while on probation

Tosca1

Newbie
Jan 24, 2024
5
0
Hello,

I was charged summarily for a criminal offense and subsequently given a conditional discharge with a probation for 22 months . There were no traveling restrictions with my probation order. The probation is ending this year and I wish to apply for citizenship.

The problem is, I traveled abroad during my probation. When I enter the probation start and end dates on the calculator, it would not let me enter an absence between those dates giving an error that says: "The 'From' date you have entered falls between a date interval you have already entered for time spent serving a sentence in Canada. Please check that the dates are correct."

So my question is: since the calculator won't let me list my travels during probation, should I just not mention them? Or? They don't matter anyways, since the time on probation doesn't count as physical presence. However, I don't want to misrepresent!
 

Tosca1

Newbie
Jan 24, 2024
5
0
Also, here is an overview / details of my situation :

Please help me answer some of the questions I have pertaining to my citizenship application and eligibility.

I became a permanent resident in December 2019, technically I have the 1095 days required to be able to apply for citizenship.

However, in November 2022, I was charged with the following:
  • Guilty to Dangerous Driving (Conditional Discharge) under the Criminal Code. No fine. Probation for 30 months;
  • Guilty to Driving with a Suspended Licence (under the Highway Traffic Act); $$ fine with 18 months to pay;
Thus, I understand that I cannot apply while on probation !!!

However I just went to court with my criminal lawyer and made an application to vary my probation order , the goal is to have my probation shortened or terminated so that I can apply for citizenship. I have completed all conditions on the probation order. The crown is offering to reduce my probation from 30 months to 22 months, which will then end my probation in September 2024. ( instead of May 2025).

Considering my charges and the fact that I have a conditional discharge and considering this rule ; " Time on probation as a result of a conditional discharge may count towards physical presence if the probation was completed successfully (i.e. you were not charged with a breach of probation or a failure to comply during that probation). This time does not have to be declared for the purposes of the physical presence calculator."

Therefore, how does this affect me? Do I have to declare it for the purpose of the physical presence calculator?

So If I wait for my probation to be terminated in September 2024 ( all the conditions as part of the conditional discharge have been completed), will I be able to apply right away?


Also I am trying to fight my case and potentially have my probation terminated at the earliest, potentially earlier than September 2024 , meaning less than 22 months ( which is what the crown is offering now) ... since I have already completed all the conditions, but I am not sure to get a favourable decision from the court as they are offering to take out 8 months from the original 30 months that i was ordered! The case is still pending.

Another question regarding the application form and this precise question, am I supposed to answer yes or no ? :

In the 4 years immediately before the date of your citizenship application, have you:
--Been convicted of an indictable offence under any Act of Parliament or an offence under the Citizenship Act?


Please consider that my offences were hybrid offences prosecuted by summary conviction.

Lastly, my PR card is expiring in January 2025, according to the immigration rules, we are supposed to apply 9 months before its expiry. If I apply in April 2024 which will be 9 months before the expiry, I will still be on probation.

As a result, Can I apply for a PR card renewal while on probation, or do I need to be discharged from the conditional discharge? Do the same rules apply for PR renewal and Citizenship application?


Thank you in advance for your time and effort by trying to answer my questions,
 

mukomana

Star Member
Mar 19, 2021
111
67
Hello,

I was charged summarily for a criminal offense and subsequently given a conditional discharge with a probation for 22 months . There were no traveling restrictions with my probation order. The probation is ending this year and I wish to apply for citizenship.

The problem is, I traveled abroad during my probation. When I enter the probation start and end dates on the calculator, it would not let me enter an absence between those dates giving an error that says: "The 'From' date you have entered falls between a date interval you have already entered for time spent serving a sentence in Canada. Please check that the dates are correct."

So my question is: since the calculator won't let me list my travels during probation, should I just not mention them? Or? They don't matter anyways, since the time on probation doesn't count as physical presence. However, I don't want to misrepresent!
I’m not an expert at this but if you decide not to mention them , you better write a detailed letter of explanation telling them you didn’t include them because it was giving you an error
 

Tosca1

Newbie
Jan 24, 2024
5
0
@mukomana thank you very much for your response. Please check if you can answer the other questions I posted relating to the same matter!
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,297
3,062
I was charged summarily for a criminal offense and subsequently given a conditional discharge with a probation for 22 months . There were no traveling restrictions with my probation order. The probation is ending this year and I wish to apply for citizenship.

The problem is, I traveled abroad during my probation. When I enter the probation start and end dates on the calculator, it would not let me enter an absence between those dates giving an error that says: "The 'From' date you have entered falls between a date interval you have already entered for time spent serving a sentence in Canada. Please check that the dates are correct."

So my question is: since the calculator won't let me list my travels during probation, should I just not mention them? Or? They don't matter anyways, since the time on probation doesn't count as physical presence. However, I don't want to misrepresent!
Upfront: The effect of criminal charges and prosecution on Canadians who are not yet citizens (that is, Canadian PRs) is complex, not easily sorted out, and subject to a wide range of variables and contingencies depending on lot of particular details and the variable interaction of such details. If there is any doubt at all, BEST to PAY for a real, in-person consultation with an experienced lawyer, a consultation based on the PR's specific facts and circumstances. That is, BEST to see a LAWYER.

Note, for example, if the criminal offence charged is one that could be prosecuted summarily OR by indictment (so-called "hybrid" offences, which actually make up the bulk of crimes prescribed in the Canada Criminal Code), for PRs it does NOT matter if it was actually prosecuted as a summary offence. For purposes of what makes a PR inadmissible, and for purposes of the applicable prohibitions in regards to citizenship eligibility, a hybrid offence is considered to be an indictable offence even if it was charged and prosecuted as a summary offence.

So you probably want to LAWYER-UP. And all of the following comments are offered with that in mind, more or less to help illuminate some important aspects of this BUT with the caveat you should talk to a lawyer about how this applies to YOU, in your particular situation. Yeah, better to LAWYER-UP.

Additionally, while I have done scores and scores of hypothetical presence calculations, wrestling with a wide variety of situations, I never worked through this scenario. So I cannot offer any insight into the practical how-to-report, what-to-report here.

Longer Observations Offered But With Caution That It Is Best To See a Lawyer:

Criminal charges complicate things. And it in these situations it is probably worth the cost of a paid-for consultation with a reputable immigration lawyer who is experienced with how the criminal law affects immigration issues.

Here's the thing: you may have almost nothing to worry about and the days you were IN Canada during the time you were on probation will count, no need to even declare the probation in the presence calculation . . . BUT if the probation period is a period on probation that does not count toward meeting the presence requirement, that probably also means you are subject to a prohibition.

When proceedings attendant a conditional charge are finally, fully complete, AND the charge is in fact discharged, as in dismissed, as in NOT resulting in a conviction, and any probation imposed as a condition for that has been completed SUCCESSFULLY, a PR applying for citizenship does NOT need to declare that probation for the purpose of the physical presence calculation. Which I guess is music to your ears, good news, perhaps damn good news.

BUT that comes with a caveat, a caution: that only works if there is in fact NO conviction, the case is discharged, and again, probation was successfully completed. And the court records need to clearly confirm this.

See the relevant IRCC's FAQ's here: https://eservices.cic.gc.ca/rescalc/redir.do;jsessionid=46AC3E766D187D08BE36AACBAD9F670E?redir=faq#Q11 and question 11 in particular.

Here is the question . . .
Q11: I have heard that some time spent imprisoned, on parole or on probation can still be counted as physical presence. Is this true?

Here is the pertinent part of the answer . . .
A11: In general, time spent serving a sentence for an offence in Canada cannot count towards physical presence for the purposes of becoming a Canadian citizen (i.e. you cannot count time spent serving a term of imprisonment, on probation, and/or parole as physical presence). There are, however, the following exceptions:
Time on probation as a result of a conditional discharge may count towards physical presence if the probation was completed successfully (i.e. you were not charged with a breach of probation or a failure to comply during that probation). This time does not have to be declared for the purposes of the physical presence calculator.

Additionally, once there is a final disposition of the criminal case, and the charge is officially discharged, no conviction, nothing still pending, there is no need to declare this in response to the prohibitions listed in question 16 in citizenship application.

There are two catches.

One catch I have already noted, but it demands repeating with emphasis. The official court record needs to confirm this status of the case, that the charge is officially, in effect, dismissed. Problem is there tends to be a lot of confusion and misunderstanding about the actual, final and official disposition of many criminal charges. Nonetheless, if the PR is certain the final disposition was a conditional discharge and now all the conditions are met, including successful completion of any probation, good to go, no problem, no prohibition, no need to declare the probation in the physical presence calculation. Leading to the second catch . . .

You need to be REALLY CERTAIN, because IRCC will definitely find out about the charge, despite it being discharged without a conviction, and most likely require the applicant to obtain and submit copies of the official court record showing the final disposition, offence discharged. Because the charge itself will very likely pop up in background screening, even though there is no need for the PR to declare it in the application or presence calculator, it is probably a good idea to somehow make reference to it in making the application and include an explanation the charges have been totally discharged. Whether submitting a copy of the official court records with the application will avoid delays later due to a request for such records, I do not know. This is one thing, among many, to discuss with an experienced lawyer.

As I noted, sorting this stuff out can get complicated. Did you actually successfully complete probation, for example? Were there notification requirements, or perhaps even restrictions, in regards to travel? And if so, did you comply? (I am not asking you to say one way or another here; just noting these might be relevant to whether your probation has been successfully completed.)

I alluded to the other side of the coin, the not-good-news side. If the official court disposition shows a conviction for a hybrid offence (such as because the conditions that make up the "conditional" part of the conditional discharge were not satisfied), even if the charge was handled as a summary offence that would constitute a prohibition and bar you from being eligible for citizenship for FOUR years AFTER the date of conviction. Moreover, depending on what the actual offence was, and more to the point depending on what the maximum punishment could be if it was prosecuted by indictment, if the offence is one which could result in imprisonment for ten years, or more, that would meet the definition of serious criminality which could lead to loss of PR status . . . again EVEN IF prosecuted summarily.

Yeah, did I mention it is a good idea to see a lawyer? I think I did. See a lawyer.
 

Tosca1

Newbie
Jan 24, 2024
5
0
@dpenabill I can’t thank you enough for taking the time and writing this thorough and concise answer regarding my complicated situation. I will definitely hire an immigration Lawyer to have more answer to my questions.

I still have question for you @dpenabill:

I’m really worried about this part that deals with how my charges were processed.

This is my situation:

1. I plead guilty to dangerous driving - a hybrid offence
2. ⁠the crown proceeded summarily
3. ⁠ received a conditional discharge which is not a conviction.

Therefore , I want to know how this will be interpreted when it comes to immigration law? Will i be able to apply? Please enlighten me on this part.

Thank you so much for all your help @dpenabill
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,297
3,062
@dpenabill I can’t thank you enough for taking the time and writing this thorough and concise answer regarding my complicated situation. I will definitely hire an immigration Lawyer to have more answer to my questions.

I still have question for you @dpenabill:

I’m really worried about this part that deals with how my charges were processed.

This is my situation:

1. I plead guilty to dangerous driving - a hybrid offence
2. ⁠the crown proceeded summarily
3. ⁠ received a conditional discharge which is not a conviction.

Therefore , I want to know how this will be interpreted when it comes to immigration law? Will i be able to apply? Please enlighten me on this part.

Thank you so much for all your help @dpenabill
I am NOT an expert. I am not a Canadian lawyer.

If your understanding is correct, and in particular if you KNOW that there is now a final disposition of the case (no conditions still pending for example), probation successfully completed, this does not affect your PR status, and does not affect your eligibility for citizenship. You do not even need to declare the probation in the physical presence calculator.

BUT . . . you really need to be certain about this outcome, to be sure the official court record shows this outcome. It is very likely that IRCC will ask for a copy of the official court records.

This is not to suggest I doubt your account. But given how widely the precise details in criminal cases vary, with the formalities in procedure tending to vary from court to court (or so it appears based on anecdotal reporting), there tends to be a lot of confusion, misunderstanding, and sometimes (it appears) it is the court record itself which is confusing or otherwise not clear (this appears to be due or related to how informally charges like this are sometimes handled in local courts, more or less handled as a minor offence, despite the same statutory offence also being, potentially, a very serious offence; note, for example, that dangerous driving as prescribed in Section 320.13(1) in the Criminal Code can be punished by imprisonment for up to TEN years).

As I described in the previous post:
. . . if the PR is certain the final disposition was a conditional discharge and now all the conditions are met, including successful completion of any probation, good to go, no problem, no prohibition, no need to declare the probation in the physical presence calculation.

That is, again, if you are certain that the court records in your case establish that the criminal case has been totally discharged, NOTHING still pending, the probation was successfully completed, it is almost as if you were never charged.

Which is to say what you describe, if that is what the court records show, if that is what is documented in the official records, that would mean there is NO negative impact on you vis-à-vis your immigration status and eligibility for citizenship. In fact, that would mean you do not need to answer [yes] to any of the prohibitions questions (question 16 in the application CIT 0002) and you do not need to declare the probation in the physical presence calculator.

BUT again, you will probably be asked to provide a certified copy of the court records to confirm they show a final disposition discharging the case. And, in applying for citizenship, it is probably a good idea to inform IRCC of the case; perhaps including a supplemental page or LoE (letter of explanation) with the application.

You might be able to go to the court yourself and obtain a copy of the records showing the final disposition of your case, and ascertain for yourself that the court records confirm what you understand about the outcome. I am not personally acquainted with examining or obtaining court records in Canada, so I don't know much at all about how this goes. And of course some people will be far more capable and confident, in doing this, than others. You may be comfortable enough with what you know to proceed with applying, including a very brief explanation stating you have had a dangerous driving charge that was conditionally discharged, all conditions met. Or, if you are not certain what the court record shows, consult with an experienced lawyer. (Despite my extensive background in legal matters, for example, in this situation I would probably see a lawyer.)