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PhD student as a course instructor, NOC 4011 or 4021?

vivosvoco

Star Member
Oct 31, 2018
135
18
Hi all,

I have a question about PhD student who works as a course instructor. In USA sometimes doctoral students can be assigned to teach undergrad-level course without faculty's supervision. Thus, they are not teaching assistants, but course instructors who have full control of the class (including creating syllabus, delivering lectures, holding office hours, grading, etc.). Their duties are not so much about conducting research but teaching. In this case, which NOC is more appropriate? 4011 or 4021? By the way, It is at a university (like UC Berkeley or Princeton), not a college.

Thanks so much!
V
 

jaffaral

Champion Member
Jun 29, 2014
1,285
202
33
Pakistan
Category........
FSW
Visa Office......
UAE
NOC Code......
4012
App. Filed.......
13-08-2018
Doc's Request.
08-04-2019
AOR Received.
13-08-2018
Med's Done....
23-07-2018
Passport Req..
11-04-2019
VISA ISSUED...
08-05-2019
LANDED..........
04-06-2019
Hi all,

I have a question about PhD student who works as a course instructor. In USA sometimes doctoral students can be assigned to teach undergrad-level course without faculty's supervision. Thus, they are not teaching assistants, but course instructors who have full control of the class (including creating syllabus, delivering lectures, holding office hours, grading, etc.). Their duties are not so much about conducting research but teaching. In this case, which NOC is more appropriate? 4011 or 4021? By the way, It is at a university (like UC Berkeley or Princeton), not a college.

Thanks so much!
V
Select ur noc based on job duties as will be included in your job reference letter.
 

vivosvoco

Star Member
Oct 31, 2018
135
18
Select ur noc based on job duties as will be included in your job reference letter.
Thanks for replying! I understand your feedback. I just realize IRCC changed the NOC descriptions, and now for NOC 4011, the main duties include research and teaching grad courses. I guess I will go with NOC 4021 since my appointment only required me to teach an undergrad course...
 

PlimPlum

Star Member
Jan 11, 2018
62
24
Thanks for replying! I understand your feedback. I just realize IRCC changed the NOC descriptions, and now for NOC 4011, the main duties include research and teaching grad courses. I guess I will go with NOC 4021 since my appointment only required me to teach an undergrad course...
You are not a community/vocational college instructor (4021) though (one of its main duties is supervising teaching assistants). If you are teaching, then you are most likely hired as a university teaching assistant/associate while you are doing your PhD, not as a university instructor. 4012- post-secondary teaching and research assistants seems more appropriate here.
 

vivosvoco

Star Member
Oct 31, 2018
135
18
You are not a community/vocational college instructor (4021) though (one of its main duties is supervising teaching assistants). If you are teaching, then you are most likely hired as a university teaching assistant/associate while you are doing your PhD, not as a university instructor. 4012- post-secondary teaching and research assistants seems more appropriate here.
I was told that title does not matter, but duties do. NOC 4012 needs to assist professor or instructor, and cannot create the syllabus or determine the course content. That's why I thought 4021 would be the correct one for me.

Btw, what is going on with the NOC pages now? The NOC 4012 page looks confusing and odd to me. They seem to mismatch some duties for RA and TA...
 

PlimPlum

Star Member
Jan 11, 2018
62
24
I was told that title does not matter, but duties do. NOC 4012 needs to assist professor or instructor, and cannot create the syllabus or determine the course content. That's why I thought 4021 would be the correct one for me.

Btw, what is going on with the NOC pages now? The NOC 4012 page looks confusing and odd to me. They seem to mismatch some duties for RA and TA...
I used 4012 when I applied because of:
  • Grade examinations, term papers and laboratory reports.
  • Conduct seminars, discussion groups and laboratory sessions to supplement lectures
  • Assist in the preparation and administration of examinations
I've also taught courses with full responsibility, but it came after the first year. So for me 4012 included above all plus teaching later on. It doesn't have to match the NOC 100%, but should match some of the main responsibilities.
Did you start teaching immediately from the first year or were you a teaching assistant to a professor? If it is the former, then 4012 seems still the correct code.
 

vivosvoco

Star Member
Oct 31, 2018
135
18
I used 4012 when I applied because of:
  • Grade examinations, term papers and laboratory reports.
  • Conduct seminars, discussion groups and laboratory sessions to supplement lectures
  • Assist in the preparation and administration of examinations
I've also taught courses with full responsibility, but it came after the first year. So for me 4012 included above all plus teaching later on. It doesn't have to match the NOC 100%, but should match some of the main responsibilities.
Did you start teaching immediately from the first year or were you a teaching assistant to a professor? If it is the former, then 4012 seems still the correct code.
I think I have to disagree with you on this, because I also worked as a TA previously and know the difference. For my instructorship, I had my own class, designed the syllabus, gave and grade exams, etc. These were done without any faculty supervision. If I used NOC 4012, I won't meet its lead statement, which is to assist professor in teaching.

It seems to me that you probably only got one letter that states all your teaching experience? In that way it's probably efficient to combine your TA and Instructor duties, and use NOC 4012? In my case, there is a gap between my TA and Instructor appointments, so it seems odd to me to mix them together under NOC 4012...
 

jaffaral

Champion Member
Jun 29, 2014
1,285
202
33
Pakistan
Category........
FSW
Visa Office......
UAE
NOC Code......
4012
App. Filed.......
13-08-2018
Doc's Request.
08-04-2019
AOR Received.
13-08-2018
Med's Done....
23-07-2018
Passport Req..
11-04-2019
VISA ISSUED...
08-05-2019
LANDED..........
04-06-2019
I think I have to disagree with you on this, because I also worked as a TA previously and know the difference. For my instructorship, I had my own class, designed the syllabus, gave and grade exams, etc. These were done without any faculty supervision. If I used NOC 4012, I won't meet its lead statement, which is to assist professor in teaching.

It seems to me that you probably only got one letter that states all your teaching experience? In that way it's probably efficient to combine your TA and Instructor duties, and use NOC 4012? In my case, there is a gap between my TA and Instructor appointments, so it seems odd to me to mix them together under NOC 4012...
What ever u select just make sure ur duties should match at least 75% of the duties mentioned for that particular NOC. U can disregard those that start with “ May”. So the NOC has 10 duties u should have 7-8 of those duties mentioned in your letter
 

vivosvoco

Star Member
Oct 31, 2018
135
18
What ever u select just make sure ur duties should match at least 75% of the duties mentioned for that particular NOC. U can disregard those that start with “ May”. So the NOC has 10 duties u should have 7-8 of those duties mentioned in your letter
OK. thanks.

By the way, have you seen the updated format on NOC 4012's page?

Main duties
  • Grade examinations, term papers and laboratory reports.
  • Compile research results and assist professors in the analysis of results and the preparation of journal articles or papers.
Post-secondary teaching assistants
  • Conduct literature reviews, surveys, laboratory experiments and other research for use in scholarly publications
  • Conduct seminars, discussion groups and laboratory sessions to supplement lectures
  • Assist in the preparation and administration of examinations
Research assistants
  • Organize reference materials, visual aids and other materials as required by university professors or college teachers for lectures

Does this mean the duty of grading is a must for TA now?
 

jaffaral

Champion Member
Jun 29, 2014
1,285
202
33
Pakistan
Category........
FSW
Visa Office......
UAE
NOC Code......
4012
App. Filed.......
13-08-2018
Doc's Request.
08-04-2019
AOR Received.
13-08-2018
Med's Done....
23-07-2018
Passport Req..
11-04-2019
VISA ISSUED...
08-05-2019
LANDED..........
04-06-2019
Your window of duties is very narrow better make sure that most of the duties match with what’s mention in NOC description

RA/TA in Canada is considered as same position in a sense that all the RA are assigned as TAs to professors not necessarily to the professor with whom they r doing their research.

If u want more detailed answer u have to share the duties mentioned on your reference letter and then based on that people can guide u if this NOC is suitable
 

vivosvoco

Star Member
Oct 31, 2018
135
18
Your window of duties is very narrow better make sure that most of the duties match with what’s mention in NOC description

RA/TA in Canada is considered as same position in a sense that all the RA are assigned as TAs to professors not necessarily to the professor with whom they r doing their research.

If u want more detailed answer u have to share the duties mentioned on your reference letter and then based on that people can guide u if this NOC is suitable
For my TA experience, some of them only cover the following three (by the way, in my letter these duties are rephrased):
  • Organize reference materials, visual aids and other materials as required by university professors or college teachers for lectures
  • Conduct seminars, discussion groups and laboratory sessions to supplement lectures
  • Assist in the preparation and administration of examinations
In the 2011 version of NOC, TA has 4 duties (the above three and the 4th one of grading exams/papers), so I suppose I was fine according to the version of 2011. But in the latest version of 2016, the duties are rearranged as shown in the previous posts, and I don't know if that changes my eligibility...
 

jaffaral

Champion Member
Jun 29, 2014
1,285
202
33
Pakistan
Category........
FSW
Visa Office......
UAE
NOC Code......
4012
App. Filed.......
13-08-2018
Doc's Request.
08-04-2019
AOR Received.
13-08-2018
Med's Done....
23-07-2018
Passport Req..
11-04-2019
VISA ISSUED...
08-05-2019
LANDED..........
04-06-2019
For my TA experience, some of them only cover the following three (by the way, in my letter these duties are rephrased):
  • Organize reference materials, visual aids and other materials as required by university professors or college teachers for lectures
  • Conduct seminars, discussion groups and laboratory sessions to supplement lectures
  • Assist in the preparation and administration of examinations
In the 2011 version of NOC, TA has 4 duties (the above three and the 4th one of grading exams/papers), so I suppose I was fine according to the version of 2011. But in the latest version of 2016, the duties are rearranged as shown in the previous posts, and I don't know if that changes my eligibility...
In my reference letter (my noc was same as yours) I was fulfilling no 1 from Main Duties and all 3 that are mentioned under Teaching Assistant.

I didn’t have no 2 from main duties mentioned

Currently as per my gcms I have cleared my eligibility. So to me it seems u will be considered as RA so u don’t need any to demonstrate activities under TA position. U already have one responsibility from RA portion and try to convince your employer to mention both the duties from main duties section and u shall be ok
 

vivosvoco

Star Member
Oct 31, 2018
135
18
In my reference letter (my noc was same as yours) I was fulfilling no 1 from Main Duties and all 3 that are mentioned under Teaching Assistant.

I didn’t have no 2 from main duties mentioned

Currently as per my gcms I have cleared my eligibility. So to me it seems u will be considered as RA so u don’t need any to demonstrate activities under TA position. U already have one responsibility from RA portion and try to convince your employer to mention both the duties from main duties section and u shall be ok
No I can't, because I was a TA helping professor to teach class, and no research was involved. I mean, I don't know why they only put two duties under Main Duties. Also, the duty under RA portion is definitely not for RA...The following is what the 2011 version says:


Main duties

Post-secondary teaching assistants perform some or all of the following duties:
  • Organize reference materials, visual aids and other materials as required by university professors or college teachers for lectures
  • Conduct seminars, discussion groups and laboratory sessions to supplement lectures
  • Assist in the preparation and administration of examinations
  • Grade examinations, term papers and laboratory reports.
Research assistants perform some or all of the following duties:
  • Conduct literature reviews, surveys, laboratory experiments and other research for use in scholarly publications
  • Compile research results and assist professors in the analysis of results and the preparation of journal articles or papers.
 

jaffaral

Champion Member
Jun 29, 2014
1,285
202
33
Pakistan
Category........
FSW
Visa Office......
UAE
NOC Code......
4012
App. Filed.......
13-08-2018
Doc's Request.
08-04-2019
AOR Received.
13-08-2018
Med's Done....
23-07-2018
Passport Req..
11-04-2019
VISA ISSUED...
08-05-2019
LANDED..........
04-06-2019
I didn’t see 2016 version. I verified my duties based on noc 2011 version. Under TA roles (not RA) I didn’t have duty 3 that was matching in any way with other 12-13 duties mentioned in my letter. Yet I cleared my eligibility by end of October 2018. I m aug 2018 AOR
 

vivosvoco

Star Member
Oct 31, 2018
135
18
I didn’t see 2016 version. I verified my duties based on noc 2011 version. Under TA roles (not RA) I didn’t have duty 3 that was matching in any way with other 12-13 duties mentioned in my letter. Yet I cleared my eligibility by end of October 2018. I m aug 2018 AOR
Yeah I always used version 2011 until I read that IRCC checks the duties against 2016 version...then I found out about this weird version.
12~13 duties! That's a lot! Would it possible for you to PM me and share the duties? will appreciate it..!