Phd stream - Skilled Worker Application Refused

[Nadees]

Hello everyone,

I applied under PhD stream in April last year. I am happy that I just defended my PhD thesis yesterday - But, then I've got this quite depressing reply from CiC.

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"..... I am not satisfied that you meet these requirements. Your letter of reference for your work as a Lecturer did not demonstrate that during the period of employment you performed a substantial number of the main duties under the NOC code you selected -- NOC 4121. Similarly, your letter of reference for your work as a Research Assistant for the University of Alberta did not match a substantial number of the main duties under NOC 4121. Your work as a Teaching Assistant for the University of Alberta did meet the requirements of R75(2)(b) and (c), but was not continuous full-time for at least one year as required in a) above. As such, you failed to demonstrate that your periods of work experience met the requirements listed above. Subsection 75(3) states that if a foreign national fails to meet these requirements, the application shall be refused and no further assessment is required. I am not satisfied that you meet these requirements ....."
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I think I have more than enough quality experience under NOC 4121. I was a permanent lecturer in a public university in Pakistan for more 3.5 years. I have had strong TA/RA experience. Here's the draft of the letter I got from my employer in Pakistan:

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To Whom it May it Concern

Re: Verification of Employment at the xxxx University xxxx

This letter is written to confirm that Mr. xxxx is an employee as lecturer in the Department of xxxxx, starting from February xx, 2005 to date. He is on study leave since August, 2008.

His basic pay scale (BPS) has been as follows:
BPS-17 : from February xx, 2005 to December xx, 2006.
BPS-18 : from January xx, 2007 to date.

Mr. xxxx normal workload was 40 hours per week during his period of active employment (February xx, 2005 to August xx, 2008). His main responsibilities were to teach three undergraduate statistics courses per semester and to assist in his department’s academic and administrative activities.

Should you have any questions or need further information, please feel free to contact me.

xxxxxx
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Unfortunately, for the sake for brevity, the letter only stated that I assisted in department's academic and administrative activities. But, I did perform most of the NOC 4121 duties during my lectureship as indicated by 40 hours per week workload. These are as follows:

> Teach one or more university subjects to undergraduate and graduate students
> Prepare and deliver lectures to students and conduct laboratory sessions or discussion groups
> Prepare, administer and grade examinations, laboratory assignments and reports
> Advise students on course and academic matters and career decisions
> Conduct research in field of specialization and publish findings in scholarly journals or books.

I don't know what would be the best option for me now. Should I get a new detailed letter and file and appeal? Should I resubmit my application or legally challenge the decision? I am really disturbed I look forward to your kind help and suggestions.

Regards,
Nadee

 

[donutbox]

Hello everyone,

I applied under PhD stream in April last year. I am happy that I just defended my PhD thesis yesterday - But, then I've got this quite depressing reply from CiC.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"..... I am not satisfied that you meet these requirements. Your letter of reference for your work as a Lecturer did not demonstrate that during the period of employment you performed a substantial number of the main duties under the NOC code you selected -- NOC 4121. Similarly, your letter of reference for your work as a Research Assistant for the University of Alberta did not match a substantial number of the main duties under NOC 4121. Your work as a Teaching Assistant for the University of Alberta did meet the requirements of R75(2)(b) and (c), but was not continuous full-time for at least one year as required in a) above. As such, you failed to demonstrate that your periods of work experience met the requirements listed above. Subsection 75(3) states that if a foreign national fails to meet these requirements, the application shall be refused and no further assessment is required. I am not satisfied that you meet these requirements ....."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think I have more than enough quality experience under NOC 4121. I was a permanent lecturer in a public university in Pakistan for more 3.5 years. I have had strong TA/RA experience. Here's the draft of the letter I got from my employer in Pakistan:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To Whom it May it Concern

Re: Verification of Employment at the xxxx University xxxx

This letter is written to confirm that Mr. xxxx is an employee as lecturer in the Department of xxxxx, starting from February xx, 2005 to date. He is on study leave since August, 2008.

His basic pay scale (BPS) has been as follows:
BPS-17 : from February xx, 2005 to December xx, 2006.
BPS-18 : from January xx, 2007 to date.

Mr. xxxx normal workload was 40 hours per week during his period of active employment (February xx, 2005 to August xx, 2008). His main responsibilities were to teach three undergraduate statistics courses per semester and to assist in his department's academic and administrative activities.

Should you have any questions or need further information, please feel free to contact me.

xxxxxx
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Unfortunately, for the sake for brevity, the letter only stated that I assisted in department's academic and administrative activities. But, I did perform most of the NOC 4121 duties during my lectureship as indicated by 40 hours per week workload. These are as follows:

> Teach one or more university subjects to undergraduate and graduate students
> Prepare and deliver lectures to students and conduct laboratory sessions or discussion groups
> Prepare, administer and grade examinations, laboratory assignments and reports
> Advise students on course and academic matters and career decisions
> Conduct research in field of specialization and publish findings in scholarly journals or books.

I don't know what would be the best option for me now. Should I get a new detailed letter and file and appeal? Should I resubmit my application or legally challenge the decision? I am really disturbed I look forward to your kind help and suggestions.

Regards,
Nadee

What exactly are the main duties of NOC 4121?

 

[Nadees]

The exact description of the main duties is as follows.

University professors perform some or all of the following duties:
>Teach one or more university subjects to undergraduate and graduate students
>Prepare and deliver lectures to students and conduct laboratory sessions or discussion groups
>Prepare, administer and grade examinations, laboratory assignments and reports
>Advise students on course and academic matters and career decisions
>Direct research programs of graduate students and advise on research matters
>Conduct research in field of specialization and publish findings in scholarly journals or books
>May serve on faculty committees dealing with such matters as curriculum planning and degree requirements, and perform a variety of administrative duties
>May represent their universities as speakers and guest lecturers
>May provide professional consultative services to government, industry and private individuals.

 

[donutbox]

The exact description of the main duties is as follows.

University professors perform some or all of the following duties:
>Teach one or more university subjects to undergraduate and graduate students
>Prepare and deliver lectures to students and conduct laboratory sessions or discussion groups
>Prepare, administer and grade examinations, laboratory assignments and reports
>Advise students on course and academic matters and career decisions
>Direct research programs of graduate students and advise on research matters
>Conduct research in field of specialization and publish findings in scholarly journals or books
>May serve on faculty committees dealing with such matters as curriculum planning and degree requirements, and perform a variety of administrative duties
>May represent their universities as speakers and guest lecturers
>May provide professional consultative services to government, industry and private individuals.

Can you also say what is the exact title of NOC 4121 (is it "University Professor")?


I agree with CIC on this point:

"Your letter of reference for your work as a Lecturer did not demonstrate that during the period of employment you performed a substantial number of the main duties under the NOC code you selected"


I really can't see how that letter from your employer in Pakistan matches NOC 4121. The letter suggests that you were just a "summer worker", at best you were a TA/RA......which is not the same as a "University Professor"


Even though the letter states that "...Mr. xxxx is an employee as lecturer in the Department of xxxxx", how does this very vague one sentence statement below matches the detailed NOC 4121 description you indicated?


"....his main responsibilities were to teach three undergraduate statistics courses per semester and to assist in his department's academic and administrative activities."



Do you notice that CIC keeps referring to one word in particular? That word is "substantial".

You indicated that you did perform most of the NOC 4121 duties during my lectureship.....notice however that CIC's response to you is that you did not match a substantial number of the main duties under NOC 4121......the key word there is substantial.


In my opinion, you did yourself a great disservice by submitting that letter from your employer Pakistan.....especially considering that you are an academic, that letter really does not say much about you...the letter does not say anything really about the actual work you did....more importantly, that letter does not indicate/suggest how your job as a lecturer matches NOC 4121.

(Obviously you can't just go ahead an write a letter that matches a NOC perfectly....but you are an academic, I am sure your academic institution could have worded that letter such that it is relatively clear that you satisfy NOC 4121 requirements)


From reading the letter, all I see is:

(a) You are employed as a lecturer.
(b) You worked 40hrs/week.
(c) You teach undergrad classes.
(d) You assist in academic and administrative activities.

Does (a) to (b) seem like they substantially match NOC 4121 to you? How does (a) to (b) substantially match NOC 4121 description:

>Teach one or more university subjects to undergraduate and graduate students
>Prepare and deliver lectures to students and conduct laboratory sessions or discussion groups
>Prepare, administer and grade examinations, laboratory assignments and reports
>Advise students on course and academic matters and career decisions
>Direct research programs of graduate students and advise on research matters
>Conduct research in field of specialization and publish findings in scholarly journals or books
>May serve on faculty committees dealing with such matters as curriculum planning and degree requirements, and perform a variety of administrative duties
>May represent their universities as speakers and guest lecturers
>May provide professional consultative services to government, industry and private individuals.

Compared to job description of NOC 4121, that letter makes it seems like you were just a "summer worker".

I think what even made all of this worst, is that the NOC you are applying under suggest that you are an academic, which means your writings to CIC and submissions would be "academically impressive".....but your job letter suggest the opposite.

 

[donutbox]

Oh wait, I just noticed another thing about your letter, it is titled "Verification of Employment...".....that title explains why the letter is written the way it is written....the letter is written to get to the point, it is just for the purposes of confirming the following:

(a) You are employed (the fact that you are employed as a lecture is probably not even important).
(b) You work 40hrs/week.
(c) You teach classes (the type of classes are probably not important either).
(d) You assist in academic and administrative activities (this is also probably not important).


It's the type of letter you would take to the bank to prove to the bank that you are gainfully employed.....the type of letter you use to open a bank account and/or get a loan. Note that in this type of letter you have no need to describe in details what exactly does your job entails...because the banks really does not care....the bank just want to know that you are employed, how much money you make, how long you been employed etc, etc......it is not of interest to the bank that you "Prepare and deliver lectures to students and conduct laboratory sessions or discussion groups"

This is however not the type of letter to submit to CIC, CIC wants to see your job description details.....they want to see that your job description substantially matches the NOC you are applying under.

 

[Nadees]

Hi donutbox,

Thanks for the detailed replies. Yes NOC 4121 is "University Professors" with example titles stated as:

Example Titles

English professor
assistant professor, botany
associate professor, linguistics
chairperson, food sciences department
chairperson, physics department
department head, geography
lecturer – university
professor of computer science
professor of medicine
university instructor, engineering
university professor.

I can realize that it was a mistake to submit the job verification letter. I should have asked for a detailed letter describing full range of duties that I performed during the job, include my research activities.

So the best option is to reapply with a fresh letter explaining every bit in full detail? Or, is there a possibility to go for an appeal, saying that I submitted the "job verification letter" by mistake and resubmit a fully detailed letter?

Thanks again for the help.

 

[anjuku]

Hi donutbox,

Thanks for the detailed replies. Yes NOC 4121 is "University Professors" with example titles stated as:

Example Titles

English professor
assistant professor, botany
associate professor, linguistics
chairperson, food sciences department
chairperson, physics department
department head, geography
lecturer – university
professor of computer science
professor of medicine
university instructor, engineering
university professor.

I can realize that it was a mistake to submit the job verification letter. I should have asked for a detailed letter describing full range of duties that I performed during the job, include my research activities.

So the best option is to reapply with a fresh letter explaining every bit in full detail? Or, is there a possibility to go for an appeal, saying that I submitted the "job verification letter" by mistake and resubmit a fully detailed letter?

Thanks again for the help.

unfortunately there is no appeal process for such a case..you cannot add any information to your file once the decision is made
so i think you should consider re-applying...i recommend you check out this forum as well
http://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/applicant-from-phd-program-after-5-nov-2011-connect-here-to-get-status-t87348.8415.html

by the way when in april did you apply?..i am also an April 2012 applicant!

 

[donutbox]

Hi donutbox,

Thanks for the detailed replies. Yes NOC 4121 is "University Professors" with example titles stated as:

Example Titles

English professor
assistant professor, botany
associate professor, linguistics
chairperson, food sciences department
chairperson, physics department
department head, geography
lecturer – university
professor of computer science
professor of medicine
university instructor, engineering
university professor.

I can realize that it was a mistake to submit the job verification letter. I should have asked for a detailed letter describing full range of duties that I performed during the job, include my research activities.

So the best option is to reapply with a fresh letter explaining every bit in full detail? Or, is there a possibility to go for an appeal, saying that I submitted the "job verification letter" by mistake and resubmit a fully detailed letter?

Thanks again for the help.

I really don't know about the appeal process, actually I don't know if there is an actual formal "appeal process". Maybe some of the other experienced members in this forum can comment on this. If there is indeed an appeal process, then yes.....you should follow the appeal process.


If there is no appeal process then yes you should go ahead and "reapply with a fresh letter explaining..."


If you re-apply fresh or you use the appeal process make sure you address every point/issue that CIC raised in their rejection of your initial application.


I really don't think you want to be saying in your appeal to CIC that you "submitted the "job verification letter" by mistake"......the reason I say this is because you are an academic (you are a "university lecturer")......it does not look good (to me and maybe to CIC) for an academic to be saying something like "I submitted the "job verification letter" by mistake"......that statement does not sound like someone who is a "university lecture", after-all, an academic should have known better (well, that might be the thinking of CIC).

Maybe you can suggest that at the time of your application you indeed thought that the information you submitted would have been enough, however upon your review of the points raised by CIC you now realize you could have submitted more detailed information that would better confirm your comparable substantial work experience as it relates to NOC 4121.......you would need to word it properly (I am assuming you did not use a lawyer/consultant for your application). <------ the point I am making with this and the previous paragraph is that you need to word your appeal or re-application properly.




***You need to also address the following indicated by CIC:

"Your work as a Teaching Assistant for the University of Alberta did meet the requirements of R75(2)(b) and (c), but was not continuous full-time for at least one year as required in a) above."



***I am not a lawyer/consultant and/or immigration expert. The views expressed above are my personal views.

 

[donutbox]

Regarding "appeal process", I just saw anjuku post.

I guess the way forward is for you to re-apply.


You should check out the Applicant from PhD program after 5 Nov, 2011 connect here to get status thread he referred to.

 

[Nadees]

Yes, I also think that reapplying seems to be the right option. Thanks for all the clarification.
-Nadees

 

[Nadees]

Hi anjuku, my application was received by CIS on 2012/04/23. Thanks for the help.

Nadees

 

[asbereth]

Nadees, I'm sorry to hear about your rejection.

As anjuku and donutbox said, if you have been following the PhD stream thread, you'll realize that this kind of rejection has been happening left and right, ever since CPP-Ottawa started assessing the first batch of PhD stream applications (another common type of rejection happened to those relying on the five adaptability points without having completed any post-secondary program).

Your letter did contain the leading statement, but, as pointed out by donutbox, it was missing a substantial number of job descriptions.

As mentioned, re-applying may be the way to go. I hope your IELTS is still valid? And you can now claim the 5 adaptability points without having completed a program, so most likely you'll have more than 67 points with just a year of experience.

 

[Nadees]

Yes asbereth, luckily my IELTS score is still valid. Also, now that I've completed the PhD program, hopefully it's gonna count towards adaptability. I am now working on the experience letter from Pakistan.