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PGP 2023

canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
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12,782
Ok can I instead consider moving to Quebec? I hears we need to show income for only one year for the PGP program....but I am not sure how soon will be I be qualified to submit my application (assuming I get through initial lottery at federal level) as a Quebec resident? If I do taxes in Quebec this year in 2023, will it be okay? But my 2022 tax return is from Ontario.
Moving to Quebec just to try and qualify for PGP not knowing if you will be selected and what the selection criteria will be in the upcoming years is not a good plan. If you want to live in Quebec and have a good job there then potentially qualifying for PGP earlier is a bonus. IRCC seems to be prioritizing those who have been trying to secure PGP the longest and even if there is a new EOI pool there may still be some form of prioritization. There may also be finally verification that you meet LICO to prevent so many people applying who don’t qualifying and then denying people or having people not apply after getting selected. In general most people wait 5-10 years after getting PR to get selected for PGP even if they have met LICO. Parent sponsorship is never guaranteed and the demand far exceeds the number of spots available. With our ageing population and our HC system on life support PGP can also be reassessed at any point. There are so many unknowns so nobody nobody will be able to predict when you’ll be able to get selected for PGP so making large life decisions solely based on the potential of possibly securing a spot and not other reasons is not advisable.

1. We have no idea what happens to those who decline an invitation because they didn’t qualify in the first place. This is the first time IRCC gas continued to use the same pool multiple years in a row. If you don’t qualify you shouldn’t be applying because there is no guarantee you will be out back into the pool. Hopefully there will finally be concrete proof needed of meeting LICO during EOI.
 

canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
53,022
12,782
Ok how about the income of 2023? My 2 month income is more than the annual requirement. As the application is typically made in Nov/Dec, can I show NOA of 2021 and 2022, and pay stubs for 2023 in order to show that I have the requisite income to support my parents? Why do I need to necessarily give 2020 NOA when my most recent income of 2023 is adequate enough (albeit without T4 or NOA)?
In 2020 for 2 months you made over 40K?
 

SeniorStakes

Hero Member
Nov 7, 2018
720
408
Toronto
Moving to Quebec just to try and qualify for PGP not knowing if you will be selected and what the selection criteria will be in the upcoming years is not a good plan. If you want to live in Quebec and have a good job there then potentially qualifying for PGP earlier is a bonus. IRCC seems to be prioritizing those who have been trying to secure PGP the longest and even if there is a new EOI pool there may still be some form of prioritization. There may also be finally verification that you meet LICO to prevent so many people applying who don’t qualifying and then denying people or having people not apply after getting selected. In general most people wait 5-10 years after getting PR to get selected for PGP even if they have met LICO. Parent sponsorship is never guaranteed and the demand far exceeds the number of spots available. With our ageing population and our HC system on life support PGP can also be reassessed at any point. There are so many unknowns so nobody nobody will be able to predict when you’ll be able to get selected for PGP so making large life decisions solely based on the potential of possibly securing a spot and not other reasons is not advisable.

1. We have no idea what happens to those who decline an invitation because they didn’t qualify in the first place. This is the first time IRCC gas continued to use the same pool multiple years in a row. If you don’t qualify you shouldn’t be applying because there is no guarantee you will be out back into the pool. Hopefully there will finally be concrete proof needed of meeting LICO during EOI.
My wife and I are very clear about this if Canada doesn't allow our parents to permanently move here, we will leave Canada after acquiring citizenship. We might move to US or otherwise back to India. Even US allows its citizens to move their parents permanently in a matter of one year.

Canada wants taxes but is not going the extra mile to support people who pay taxes by giving them full time access to their parents. This strategy won't work in the long term and will instead lead to big long term Healthcare liability. Any prudent country must not cover near term expenses by long term borrowing.

We are not the only ones thinking of emigrating out from Canada after citizenship. I am not against people who are ahead in the PGP queue. The law can certainly prioritize them but it can't be based on luck, lottery etc.

They give child care benefit of 500 cad per month and considers newborns as dependents. How about parents who are more than 80 years old...they need the same level of care as newborns.
 
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SeniorStakes

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Nov 7, 2018
720
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Toronto
My wife and I are very clear about this if Canada doesn't allow our parents to permanently move here, we will leave Canada after acquiring citizenship. We might move to US or otherwise back to India. Even US allows its citizens to move their parents permanently in a matter of one year.

Canada wants taxes but is not going the extra mile to support people who pay taxes by giving them full time access to their parents. This strategy won't work in the long term and will instead lead to big long term Healthcare liability. Any prudent country must not cover near term expenses by long term borrowing.

We are not the only ones thinking of emigrating out from Canada after citizenship. I am not against people who are ahead in the PGP queue. The law can certainly prioritize them but it can't be based on luck, lottery etc.

They give child care benefit of 500 cad per month and considers newborns as dependents. How about parents who are more than 80 years old...they need the same level of care as newborns.
Also, our employers can move us to Quebec anytime at the same salary. It's straightforward but I am not sure how soon we will become Quebec residents.
 

canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
53,022
12,782
Ok looks like you are asking about 2023, not 2020. By the grace of God, I am fortunate to make 240K and my wife makes 120K in our respective full-time positions, which is equivalent to 60K @ two months.
Sorry I meant 2021. Did you make over 40k (or LICO for your family size) in Canada during the 2 months since you arrived?
 

canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
53,022
12,782
Also, our employers can move us to Quebec anytime at the same salary. It's straightforward but I am not sure how soon we will become Quebec residents.
If you are working remotely you may need to prove to Quebec that you are actually settling in Quebec not trying to remain in Quebec and work remotely to try to qualify for PGP. Do they have offices in Quebec? Has your employer looked at language laws if working (even remotely) in Quebec? Not sure myself but that could complicate things. Are they are large employer?
 

canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
53,022
12,782
My wife and I are very clear about this if Canada doesn't allow our parents to permanently move here, we will leave Canada after acquiring citizenship. We might move to US or otherwise back to India. Even US allows its citizens to move their parents permanently in a matter of one year.

Canada wants taxes but is not going the extra mile to support people who pay taxes by giving them full time access to their parents. This strategy won't work in the long term and will instead lead to big long term Healthcare liability. Any prudent country must not cover near term expenses by long term borrowing.

We are not the only ones thinking of emigrating out from Canada after citizenship. I am not against people who are ahead in the PGP queue. The law can certainly prioritize them but it can't be based on luck, lottery etc.

They give child care benefit of 500 cad per month and considers newborns as dependents. How about parents who are more than 80 years old...they need the same level of care as newborns.
The US doesn’t provide the same social benefits or healthcare that Canada does which is why it is easier for parents to move to the US. In countries where there is Medicare it is in general very difficult, if not impossible to sponsor parents, especially with access to public healthcare. You are clearly very intelligent but it is fairly clear why children are considered dependent but parents are not. Children haven’t developed the capacity to care for themselves. They also have not been able to work and save money to live in retirement. The cost the government incurs to care for children is much less than caring for most seniors especially in the last 5 years of life. Seniors who have PR through PGP likely qualify for OAS/GIS after 10 years which is more than the child benefit families receive for each child each month. Canada, like most western countries, currently accepts a large volume of immigrants to counteract an ageing population. If all parents could move to Canada that would defeat one of the main reasons for immigration. Agree with the longterm liability issue but allowing all patents to get PR would be an equally large liability when they have not paid into the system and as our existing population ages. Your argument is one of the primary reasons we likely need to return to intent to reside in Canada as a part of citizenship application and raise citizenship length to be more in line with other countries versus 3 years.
 

SeniorStakes

Hero Member
Nov 7, 2018
720
408
Toronto
If you are working remotely you may need to prove to Quebec that you are actually settling in Quebec not trying to remain in Quebec and work remotely to try to qualify for PGP. Do they have offices in Quebec? Has your employer looked at language laws if working (even remotely) in Quebec? Not sure myself but that could complicate things. Are they are large employer?
Yes they are a large employer. As I said, it's straightforward for both my wife and I to move over to Quebec without knowing French. They do have a large office there as well. In fact my manager had earlier offered me Montreal but then thinking my wife may not get a job, I requested for Toronto. However, they ended up hiring my wife too several months later...for the Toronto location itself this time.
 

SeniorStakes

Hero Member
Nov 7, 2018
720
408
Toronto
The US doesn’t provide the same social benefits or healthcare that Canada does which is why it is easier for parents to move to the US. In countries where there is Medicare it is in general very difficult, if not impossible to sponsor parents, especially with access to public healthcare. You are clearly very intelligent but it is fairly clear why children are considered dependent but parents are not. Children haven’t developed the capacity to care for themselves. They also have not been able to work and save money to live in retirement. The cost the government incurs to care for children is much less than caring for most seniors especially in the last 5 years of life. Seniors who have PR through PGP likely qualify for OAS/GIS after 10 years which is more than the child benefit families receive for each child each month. Canada, like most western countries, currently accepts a large volume of immigrants to counteract an ageing population. If all parents could move to Canada that would defeat one of the main reasons for immigration. Agree with the longterm liability issue but allowing all patents to get PR would be an equally large liability when they have not paid into the system and as our existing population ages. Your argument is one of the primary reasons we likely need to return to intent to reside in Canada as a part of citizenship application and raise citizenship length to be more in line with other countries versus 3 years.
Immigration is tantamount to parents producing numerous kids in a bid to get care in later age. Is there an end to this cycle? Solution of Problem A is never creation of Problem B - this is why we need more intellectuals in the Parliament than in investment banks. Canada is letting people immigrate to take care of oldies. In 2070, the current set of immigrants would be oldies and Justin Trudeau may not even be around to substantiate his decisions. Will Canada let more people immigrate to take care of 2070 oldies? This will further lead to creation of 2120 oldies. To do well in the next elections, political leaders should never solve short-term problems by creating long-term problems. US has a much better sustainable model where although their economic immigration is just 10%, their system is not bound to explode 50 years from now, unlike Canada.

Fairness sounds great in textbooks, not in practice. If today I can afford to have my parents here, there should be a system through which I can buy their PR or pay the aggregate expenses the Canadian economy will eventually spend on them - this is capitalism which is sustainable. Socialism has negative spiral effects as explained above. Canada should stop trying to make capitalism and socialism work in tandem. They are short-term capitalists and long-term socialists. Canada is a cold country and God has constructed it with an intent to have sparse population. When people start squeezing oil and start inhabiting people in large quantities, nature won't eventually like this phenomenon.

Ok so here are my thoughts on what will work and what is sustainable:
1. Eliminate free healthcare - make people pay 20% of all healthcare expenses. People should be reimbursed the remaining 20% only if they need it economically. Providing free healthcare to a person owning several million dollar homes is not just bizarre, but truly foolish.
2. Stop immigration of this much magnitude - It's a cold country and not meant to house so many people.
3. Above two steps will automatically solve most of the problems
4. Allow parents to live with their children in a PR way, not supervisa. Every human being has the right to be with their loved ones, regardless of his or her age, gender or country of birth - this is fairness in true sense ... providing free healthcare to millionaires is stupidity, not fairness or socialism.
 

SeniorStakes

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Nov 7, 2018
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Toronto
Agree with the longterm liability issue but allowing all patents to get PR would be an equally large liability when they have not paid into the system and as our existing population ages.
Specifically on the above point, with 120K+ in taxes every year, my wife and I have been contributing more than the liability we would create by having our parents here. Yes, this arguments sounds anti-socialist, but on same note, granting PR, on the basis of lottery, to parents of a person paying nil or 5K in taxes is equally anti-capitalist and demotivating to future immigrants.

Socialist countries never make it big and the state of several countries in Europe is a testimony to this statement. The only sustainable model is capitalism where people have an incentive to work hard and take care of their loved ones. In socialist countries, government keep on raising taxes ultimately leading to mass exodus.
 

--ariana--

Full Member
Nov 26, 2017
33
18
Specifically on the above point, with 120K+ in taxes every year, my wife and I have been contributing more than the liability we would create by having our parents here. Yes, this arguments sounds anti-socialist, but on same note, granting PR, on the basis of lottery, to parents of a person paying nil or 5K in taxes is equally anti-capitalist and demotivating to future immigrants.

Socialist countries never make it big and the state of several countries in Europe is a testimony to this statement. The only sustainable model is capitalism where people have an incentive to work hard and take care of their loved ones. In socialist countries, government keep on raising taxes ultimately leading to mass exodus.
Sorry but the entitlement in your post is astonishing. When you moved to Canada, you knew the rules and the fact that it is a socialist country, which is why immigration was easy. Secondly, if you love US so much, why didn’t you move there? That’s right because US doesn’t give green card easily, you have to wait for 20-30 or 50 years with Indian passport. Whereas in Canada, you can get PR in less than a year without even having lived in the country. Considering your income level, you can have them live here for 5 years on Super visa. The only downside of super visa is you have to pay for all medical expenses, and since you make good enough money you should be able to pay for it yourself. You barely moved 2 years back and you already want your parents to get all the rights. But people have been waiting 10years to reunite with their families. Even in india you have to live for over 10 years to get citizenship.

The reason the government gives CCB is to help families have more kids who are our future. We need younger generation to work in Canada in the future. Canada already has an aging population and they don’t need more.

As for private healthcare, there are private clinics and thanks to Dougie he’s opening more for profit private hospitals and clinics, you’re more than welcome to go there. But more than half the people here are struggling to keep a roof over their heads and be able to have a full stomach, and you expect them to also start paying for healthcare, even though we’re also paying massive amounts in taxes. And for what? Just so that rich entitled people like you can get what they want? On top of that you still want to use Canadian resources to get citizenship, then you’ll probably move to another western country, make a lot of money and then come back here for retirement to get old age benefits and free healthcare, without having contributed to the country for whole life. People like you is what is wrong with this country. I also moved here from India 5 years back and still waiting for opportunity to show interest in PGP, but I’m okay with waiting a little bit. A lottery system is insane but taking away free healthcare is even worse.
 

canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
53,022
12,782
Specifically on the above point, with 120K+ in taxes every year, my wife and I have been contributing more than the liability we would create by having our parents here. Yes, this arguments sounds anti-socialist, but on same note, granting PR, on the basis of lottery, to parents of a person paying nil or 5K in taxes is equally anti-capitalist and demotivating to future immigrants.

Socialist countries never make it big and the state of several countries in Europe is a testimony to this statement. The only sustainable model is capitalism where people have an incentive to work hard and take care of their loved ones. In socialist countries, government keep on raising taxes ultimately leading to mass exodus.
You have no idea whether you tax liability will cover your healthcare costs and your dependents if you have children. All you taxes doesn’t only go to healthcare first of all. If one of you get cancer or a multitude of diseases and conditions that could use up a large portion of the taxes you contribute to healthcare for your lifetime. If you are not a fan of how Canada works then you should have moved to the US. The parent sponsorship program is purely an H&C program it makes no economic sense. I have seen plenty of families who make less money barely rely on the healthcare system for any caregiving while the wealthiest have applied for any low income progrqm available for their parents, used longterm care homes versus doing the caregiving at home, etc. Family income does not necessarily lead to higher healthcare spending. Would add that sponsoring a parent relies on 1-3 years of income so families can end up earning significantly more than they did during that period. Families can also end up earning significantly less. Almost all the countries that provide publicly funded healthcare don’t allow parents to immigrate and use the public system or only allow a very limited number. Canada isn’t a socialist country. The healthcare system is only around 70% publicly funded. Our income and wealth still factors into your lifestyle, ability to afford housing, food, further education, transportation, etc. so there is plenty of incentive to earn more and achieve more. Taxes are going up everywhere since most of the world has been living off of debt. Canada isn’t an outlier.
 
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