permanent residency obligation (refusal of Travel document)

[dpenabill]

His chances of getting a residency spot in Canada are extremely low.

It's true. Canada makes it difficult on foreign educated and trained health professionals - especially doctors.

What I do not understand is offering such definitive opinions based on very little information.

Professional accreditation or licensing based on foreign credentials is especially individual specific, and depends a great deal on the particular individual's credentials. NO ONE can offer a credible let alone reliable opinion about a particular individual's opportunities or lack of opportunities in Canada without knowing a great deal of very specific information about that individual's educational and professional background and credentials.

Nearly half or more of the physicians who work in our regional health centre (the only "hospital" in the region) were primarily educated OUTSIDE Canada.

That said, knowing that does NOT support any inference about the chances any OTHER individual educated and trained abroad might qualify for or obtain a position in Canada. IT DEPENDS ON THE INDIVIDUAL'S OWN EDUCATION, TRAINING, and ACCREDITATION.

Statistically, sure, no doubt there are more whose education, training, and other credentials will NOT easily meet Canadian requirements. Probably a lot, lot more. BUT qualifying for a position in Canada is NOT a lottery. NOT a game of chance. It depends on the particular individual's education, training, experience, and so on . . .

Thus, for example, sure this much is ALMOST correct: "Canada makes it difficult on foreign educated and trained health professionals - especially doctors." Almost because it is NOT the case that Canada "makes it difficult," but more about the difference in qualifications and standards. Because of higher and stricter standards, yes it is difficult for many foreign educated and trained health professionals to obtain accreditation or positions in Canada. BUT nonetheless, it is also true that many foreign educated and trained health professionals DO IN FACT obtain accreditation or positions in Canada.

This forum tends to be rife with judgmental conclusions based on, at most, a sketchy outline of facts. Such conclusions are NOT well founded.

 

[canuck78]

What I do not understand is offering such definitive opinions based on very little information.

Professional accreditation or licensing based on foreign credentials is especially individual specific, and depends a great deal on the particular individual's credentials. NO ONE can offer a credible let alone reliable opinion about a particular individual's opportunities or lack of opportunities in Canada without knowing a great deal of very specific information about that individual's educational and professional background and credentials.

Nearly half or more of the physicians who work in our regional health centre (the only "hospital" in the region) were primarily educated OUTSIDE Canada.

That said, knowing that does NOT support any inference about the chances any OTHER individual educated and trained abroad might qualify for or obtain a position in Canada. IT DEPENDS ON THE INDIVIDUAL'S OWN EDUCATION, TRAINING, and ACCREDITATION.

Statistically, sure, no doubt there are more whose education, training, and other credentials will NOT easily meet Canadian requirements. Probably a lot, lot more. BUT qualifying for a position in Canada is NOT a lottery. NOT a game of chance. It depends on the particular individual's education, training, experience, and so on . . .

Thus, for example, sure this much is ALMOST correct: "Canada makes it difficult on foreign educated and trained health professionals - especially doctors." Almost because it is NOT the case that Canada "makes it difficult," but more about the difference in qualifications and standards. Because of higher and stricter standards, yes it is difficult for many foreign educated and trained health professionals to obtain accreditation or positions in Canada. BUT nonetheless, it is also true that many foreign educated and trained health professionals DO IN FACT obtain accreditation or positions in Canada.

This forum tends to be rife with judgmental conclusions based on, at most, a sketchy outline of facts. Such conclusions are NOT well founded.

Do you know anything about the current medical residency program in Canada? Almost all residency positions are taken after all the Canadian students match. Think there were 50ish spots left with 30ish Canadian medical students not matching. Most specialties have zero residency spots left. If you have to do a residency or redo a residency but there are no spots available you are out of luck. We are only talking about physicians. It is actually doable for other medical professionals even if you have to return to school. Used to be relatively easy to get licensed as a foreign doctor. Things changed 10-15 years ago when salaries went up significantly in Canada.

 

[canuck78]

Wanted to add that the son doesn’t sound like he meets RO either.

 

[dpenabill]

if I get this travel document after the non compliency determination, can I use this to stay and complete my residency obligation or is it just to appeal within Canada?
If so how long I can stay in Canada and in what capacity? would the condition be similar to a visitor visa with a six month stay permit or can I stay longer as PR?

". . . how long I can stay in Canada and in what capacity?"

As long as you appeal, and the appeal is pending, you are still a Canadian, still entitled to enter Canada, and still entitled to remain and work and so on in Canada, just like any other Canadian. That is, you continue to be a Canadian Permanent Resident (PRs are "Canadian" in Canadian immigration law.)

Thus, if you are eligible for a special PR TD (based on having been present in Canada within the previous year), you can use such a PR TD to come to Canada and stay pending the appeal. You can stay until there is a final adjudication your PR status is terminated. That means you can stay as long as the appeal is pending and if you win the appeal, you keep PR status. If you lose the appeal you lose PR status.

Otherwise, if you can travel via the U.S., you could come to Canada even if you are not granted a special PR TD. Again, as long as you appeal and the appeal is pending, you are still a Canadian and still entitled to enter Canada.

". . . if I get this travel document after the non compliency determination, can I use this to stay and complete my residency obligation?"

Again, you can stay pending the appeal. Whether you can stay beyond that depends on winning the appeal.

Even if you lose, IF your spouse is a PR, living in Canada, and otherwise eligible to sponsor a family member, you can then make an INLAND sponsored spouse PR application and continue to stay pending that.

Because of the latter, the fact that you should probably qualify to be sponsored again, and right away, STAYING in Canada pending the appeal could have a big positive impact on whether you win the appeal. The days IN Canada will not count toward calculating RO compliance for purposes of the decision to be made in the appeal (and that is the decision which will determine whether you lose or get to keep PR status). BUT they will be CONSIDERED in the H&C assessment, and for a PR with family settled in Canada, staying in Canada pending the appeal is what can really make a big difference. Indeed, if you were to stay outside Canada, that would tend to show little or no hardship imposed if you lose PR status and thus have to live outside Canada.

So the days in Canada pending the appeal do not "count" in the calculation sense, but they do "count" in an important sense if there are other positive H&C factors . . . family ties in Canada plus actually settling to stay in Canada in the meantime, looming as particularly influential factors. Note, however, the length of time spent abroad compared to time in Canada is still the biggest factor.


ALL THAT SAID . . .

My husband is a PR in Canada and has met his residency obligations.

. . . even if my appeal is successful, I can not stay enough in Canada to meet my residency obligations. Provided I get a travel document to visit my husband in Canad, I have to go back and stay for another one year with my son to support him and then I am planning to go back to Canada with my son next year permanently.

There is a high possibility that I may have to apply again for a travel document next year (even if my appeal is successful now and I receive a travel document). I am wondering whether to appeal or leave the decision unanswered.

If you are NOT prepared to come and stay in Canada relatively soon, that will likely weigh against you in the appeal.

If your PR spouse in Canada is eligible to sponsor a spouse, your other option is to be sponsored again WHEN you are prepared to come to Canada to live.

A big factor to consider in your situation is just how much in breach of the PR you are. And how much time you can spend in Canada pending an appeal. Among others. But the extent of the breach looms as the most influential factor.

One option is to appeal, come to Canada for a visit, consult with a competent lawyer while in Canada, and make an INFORMED decision about how to navigate going forward. Or, appeal, come to Canada to visit, and see how the appeal goes. If it is granted, you get to keep PR status. If it is lost, you then look at your options for a new sponsored spouse application.

Do you know anything about the current medical residency program in Canada? Almost all residency positions are taken after all the Canadian students match. Think there were 50ish spots left with 30ish Canadian medical students not matching. Most specialties have zero residency spots left. If you have to do a residency or redo a residency but there are no spots available you are out of luck. We are only talking about physicians. It is actually doable for other medical professionals even if you have to return to school. Used to be relatively easy to get licensed as a foreign doctor. Things changed 10-15 years ago when salaries went up significantly in Canada.

Since I have multiple acquaintances (some of whom one might say are friends but I tend to not be presumptuous about relationships) with children who recently completed or entered residencies, and since my partner continues to work (going back after retiring) in the regional health center, which is a medical teaching institution, and works with more than a few medical professionals who immigrated to Canada, some many years ago, some more recently, it is fair to say that, at the very least, I know a little, and this is beyond some recent personal experiences with a couple NEW physicians locally (as I have oft said, acknowledged, and emphasized, the anecdotal experience only illuminates what has happened sometimes, suggesting the same might happen again, but NEVER, not alone, illuminates the rule or what will happen in other situations). But that is NOT relevant.

You are still talking about probabilities based on numbers. Whether an individual whose education, training, experience, and other elements of their credentials, particularly with some additional education and training in Canada, will qualify for and obtain a professional position in Canada, again, DEPENDS ON THAT INDIVIDUAL'S PERSONAL QUALIFICATIONS. It is NOT a lottery. It is not determined by chance. So if you do NOT know what the respective individual's actual qualifications and credentials are, you do NOT know what chances they have of obtaining a position in Canada, or obtaining a related position that will put them on a path to practice their profession in Canada. And given that lack of knowledge it is utter BS to state a definitive conclusion about whether or not a particular individual can or cannot obtain this or that position in Canada. Especially when NO ONE was asking.

As for other professions, the only Canadian lawyer I personally know obtained his legal education OUTSIDE Canada. Not all that long ago. And it was NOT in the U.S. (recognizing that American educational and professional credentials tend to facilitate an easier path to comparable status in Canada than, say, education and credentials from certain other countries . . . but of course, in which country the education and credentials were obtained are very much one element in each individual's personal qualifications, which are what matters).

In the meantime, the Canadian government is spending tens of millions of dollars to work with provinces and other stakeholders "to improve foreign credential recognition." Among current projects, the government has specifically invested in a framework that is "helping internationally-trained health care practitioners to put their knowledge and skills to work sooner in communities across Canada."

Wanted to add that the son doesn’t sound like he meets RO either.

Why? And based on what? Has the OP deleted posts or parts of posts posing questions about the son's status? Or deleted any other facts about the son other than he is attending medical school abroad?

Really, what is your point? If it is about immediate family living abroad and an observation that might offset some of the positive weight, in an H&C assessment, the OP would likely have otherwise due to having a spouse settled and living in Canada as a PR, the fact the son might need H&C relief to retain PR status is probably a very, very tiny factor in the OP's case and has very, very little relevance to any of the queries posed by the OP.

 

[keesio]

Statistically, sure, no doubt there are more whose education, training, and other credentials will NOT easily meet Canadian requirements. Probably a lot, lot more. BUT qualifying for a position in Canada is NOT a lottery. NOT a game of chance. It depends on the particular individual's education, training, experience, and so on . . .

It is well known that Canada, more so than other developed countries, make it a more arduous (and expensive) process for foreign trained health professionals.

https://www.thestar.com/news/2010/03/25/why_cant_this_foreigntrained_md_get_work.html
https://www.readersdigest.ca/health/healthy-living/why-canada-shutting-out-doctors/

It is certainly TRUE that Canada needs to check the credentials of these foreign trained professionals to make sure they measure up. But experts agree that it can be a bit too overboard (and costly).

Yes it is tough in the US also. But not as bad (or as expensive) as here. Enough so that foreign trained health professions will give up here and go to the US if they can. I know at least two friends who moved to the US after getting Canadian citizenship because it was just too hard to start practicing here (one had a job offer from a US hospital pending on her getting her Canadian citizenship).

Also my wife is a health professional from the US. She had to jump through hoops to get her license here. Throughout the whole process, she kept (constantly) commenting on how much more arduous and expensive the process here is to get licensed compared to what foreign trained health professionals have to deal with to practice in the US. The most frustrating thing for her was to get the degree from her school recognized. She paid a lot of money to get it recognized even though the school is well known (especially in her field) and University of Toronto actually uses much of the curriculum developed by her school (including text books) for their department. Much of what she had to go through didn't make any sense. It is like they added all this process which sounds good in theory, but ends up needlessly complicating the process.

 

[canuck78]

". . . how long I can stay in Canada and in what capacity?"

As long as you appeal, and the appeal is pending, you are still a Canadian, still entitled to enter Canada, and still entitled to remain and work and so on in Canada, just like any other Canadian. That is, you continue to be a Canadian Permanent Resident (PRs are "Canadian" in Canadian immigration law.)

Thus, if you are eligible for a special PR TD (based on having been present in Canada within the previous year), you can use such a PR TD to come to Canada and stay pending the appeal. You can stay until there is a final adjudication your PR status is terminated. That means you can stay as long as the appeal is pending and if you win the appeal, you keep PR status. If you lose the appeal you lose PR status.

Otherwise, if you can travel via the U.S., you could come to Canada even if you are not granted a special PR TD. Again, as long as you appeal and the appeal is pending, you are still a Canadian and still entitled to enter Canada.

". . . if I get this travel document after the non compliency determination, can I use this to stay and complete my residency obligation?"

Again, you can stay pending the appeal. Whether you can stay beyond that depends on winning the appeal.

Even if you lose, IF your spouse is a PR, living in Canada, and otherwise eligible to sponsor a family member, you can then make an INLAND sponsored spouse PR application and continue to stay pending that.

Because of the latter, the fact that you should probably qualify to be sponsored again, and right away, STAYING in Canada pending the appeal could have a big positive impact on whether you win the appeal. The days IN Canada will not count toward calculating RO compliance for purposes of the decision to be made in the appeal (and that is the decision which will determine whether you lose or get to keep PR status). BUT they will be CONSIDERED in the H&C assessment, and for a PR with family settled in Canada, staying in Canada pending the appeal is what can really make a big difference. Indeed, if you were to stay outside Canada, that would tend to show little or no hardship imposed if you lose PR status and thus have to live outside Canada.

So the days in Canada pending the appeal do not "count" in the calculation sense, but they do "count" in an important sense if there are other positive H&C factors . . . family ties in Canada plus actually settling to stay in Canada in the meantime, looming as particularly influential factors. Note, however, the length of time spent abroad compared to time in Canada is still the biggest factor.


ALL THAT SAID . . .



If you are NOT prepared to come and stay in Canada relatively soon, that will likely weigh against you in the appeal.

If your PR spouse in Canada is eligible to sponsor a spouse, your other option is to be sponsored again WHEN you are prepared to come to Canada to live.

A big factor to consider in your situation is just how much in breach of the PR you are. And how much time you can spend in Canada pending an appeal. Among others. But the extent of the breach looms as the most influential factor.

One option is to appeal, come to Canada for a visit, consult with a competent lawyer while in Canada, and make an INFORMED decision about how to navigate going forward. Or, appeal, come to Canada to visit, and see how the appeal goes. If it is granted, you get to keep PR status. If it is lost, you then look at your options for a new sponsored spouse application.






Since I have multiple acquaintances (some of whom one might say are friends but I tend to not be presumptuous about relationships) with children who recently completed or entered residencies, and since my partner continues to work (going back after retiring) in the regional health center, which is a medical teaching institution, and works with more than a few medical professionals who immigrated to Canada, some many years ago, some more recently, it is fair to say that, at the very least, I know a little, and this is beyond some recent personal experiences with a couple NEW physicians locally (as I have oft said, acknowledged, and emphasized, the anecdotal experience only illuminates what has happened sometimes, suggesting the same might happen again, but NEVER, not alone, illuminates the rule or what will happen in other situations). But that is NOT relevant.

You are still talking about probabilities based on numbers. Whether an individual whose education, training, experience, and other elements of their credentials, particularly with some additional education and training in Canada, will qualify for and obtain a professional position in Canada, again, DEPENDS ON THAT INDIVIDUAL'S PERSONAL QUALIFICATIONS. It is NOT a lottery. It is not determined by chance. So if you do NOT know what the respective individual's actual qualifications and credentials are, you do NOT know what chances they have of obtaining a position in Canada, or obtaining a related position that will put them on a path to practice their profession in Canada. And given that lack of knowledge it is utter BS to state a definitive conclusion about whether or not a particular individual can or cannot obtain this or that position in Canada. Especially when NO ONE was asking.

As for other professions, the only Canadian lawyer I personally know obtained his legal education OUTSIDE Canada. Not all that long ago. And it was NOT in the U.S. (recognizing that American educational and professional credentials tend to facilitate an easier path to comparable status in Canada than, say, education and credentials from certain other countries . . . but of course, in which country the education and credentials were obtained are very much one element in each individual's personal qualifications, which are what matters).

In the meantime, the Canadian government is spending tens of millions of dollars to work with provinces and other stakeholders "to improve foreign credential recognition." Among current projects, the government has specifically invested in a framework that is "helping internationally-trained health care practitioners to put their knowledge and skills to work sooner in communities across Canada."



Pointing out that OP should be concerned about both their RO if they both want to return to Canada. Foreign training recognition has nothing to do with foreign doctors working in Canada it is purely a budget issue. We have Canadian medical graduates not being able to find employment in Canada in many specialties. I have a good friend who graduated as the top plastic surgery program in Canada, did fellowships at U of T and UBC and had problems finding a full-time job in Canada in non-cosmetic plastic surgery. Others have had to work in the US until a spot opened up in Canada. Older doctors don’t want to retire. Canada significantly increased their medical school enrolment somewhat recently by creating a few new schools but residency spots have not increased. The creation of a family medicine only school was a very smart thing and should probably be replicated with lower tuition and a 3 year condensed program like some innovative programs in the US. We do need more family doctors but that can easily be done by redirecting students in Canadian medical schools into specialties Canada needs so we don’t end up with unemployed cardiologists which is an actual problem. You can’t easily just add spots in residency programs because students won’t get enough experience if there are too many spots in every year. If you have trained in the EU, US, Australia, NZ or South Africa you have a fighting chance but would never recommend any other IMG attempt to move to Canada. Chances are so low you will ever practice. Young already trained family doctors may have a better chance if they are willing to go to a underserviced area but there are so many Canadians who have been also trained abroad who are likely to get preference and are fighting to change the system so they do get preference before other IMGs. If you are or want to be a psychiatrist or pathologist or speak French you have a better shot than other specialties. If you are an IMG and will need a spot in radiology, ophthalmology, dermatology, plastics, etc. there is no point in coming to Canada since there will be no residency spot available. I also know a lot about the medical system and how hard it is for doctors to move around the system. People hear about long wait times to see doctors and think that Canada has a shortage of doctors and it will be easy to get hired. Totally incorrect. When people read what they will need to do to get licensed in Canada it seems long but doable. The issue is getting a residency spot. These are all budgets issues and Canada is unlikely to have the budget to hire lots of IMGs when we are producing more doctors and retaining them. If IMGs want to move somewhere the US, UK, other parts of Europe will give them much better chances of actually practicing. What often happens when IMGs realize they won’t be able to practice in Canada is that they wait to get citizenship and leave or leave their families and work abroad. Often they let their PR lapse so they don’t have to pay taxes. None of these options benefit Canada. I was shocked to see how little research some IMGs (as well as other health professionals) do when applying for PR. They arrive in Canada and start to realize that they may never be able to practice again.

 

[dpenabill]

It is well known that Canada, more so than other developed countries, make it a more arduous (and expensive) process for foreign trained health professionals.

What does that have to do with affirming the declarative, definitive statement that:

"Also don’t understand the point in attending medical school abroad if you want to live in Canada. His chances of getting a residency spot in Canada are extremely low."​

Regarding which, quoting that statement, you posted

It's true.

Except you know NOTHING about this individual's actual credentials, not about the individual's education, training, experience, or other credentials.

AND again, no matter what the numbers are, there is a career path, at the very least, for some foreign educated and trained health care professionals. DEPENDING on their individual, personal qualifications, and depending on their willingness and ability to obtain further education, training, and experience in Canada.

Negatively dismissing the value of an individual's educational endeavors abroad without knowing even minimal details about that individual's personal qualifications is NOT warranted. It is malarkey.

Let's be clear: the path to becoming a licensed physician or surgeon is NOT easy, period. Statistically one can accurately cite the very small percentage of high school and university students with hopes of becoming a doctor who will succeed in doing so. But it is NOT a lottery. It is not a game of chance. It is about ability, opportunity, effort, support, and some luck. Who can and who will become a doctor DEPENDS ON THE INDIVIDUAL'S PERSONAL QUALIFICATIONS, and a LOT of WORK. Yeah, the odds are steep. Even for those who are smart, born in Canada, and well educated.

Also my wife is a health professional from the US. She had to jump through hoops to get her license here. Throughout the whole process . . . .

As I have oft reminded, and it is basic reasoning, anecdotal experiences only illustrate what sometimes happens, given that on that occasion that is what happened. It suggests what MIGHT happen for someone else, NOT what will happen. Drawing any other inferences based on anecdotal experience is, at best, precarious and utterly NOT reasonable if based on only the anecdotal event itself.

I was shocked to see how little research some IMGs (as well as other health professionals) do when applying for PR. They arrive in Canada and start to realize that they may never be able to practice again.

Dripping with irony. Shocked by how little research others have done. Shocking they don't know the facts eh.

How much do you know about the individual you have declared to be, in effect, wasting his time in an educational program abroad? What are the facts that declarative opinion was based on?

How much homework a person does before pursuing a course of action is for that person to decide. Personal choice.

How much homework a person does before declaring another person's career path is a deadend, that's different. More than a few come to this site and misunderstand that we are NOT experts. Some of us are more honest about this than others. Too many here are not.

Pointing out that OP should be concerned about both their RO if they both want to return to Canada. Foreign training recognition has nothing to do with foreign doctors working in Canada it is purely a budget issue. We have Canadian medical graduates not being able to find employment in Canada in many specialties. I have a good friend who graduated as the top plastic surgery program in Canada, did fellowships at U of T and UBC and had problems finding a full-time job in Canada in non-cosmetic plastic surgery. Others have had to work in the US until a spot opened up in Canada. Older doctors don’t want to retire. Canada significantly increased their medical school enrolment somewhat recently by creating a few new schools but residency spots have not increased. The creation of a family medicine only school was a very smart thing and should probably be replicated with lower tuition and a 3 year condensed program like some innovative programs in the US. We do need more family doctors but that can easily be done by redirecting students in Canadian medical schools into specialties Canada needs so we don’t end up with unemployed cardiologists which is an actual problem. You can’t easily just add spots in residency programs because students won’t get enough experience if there are too many spots in every year. If you have trained in the EU, US, Australia, NZ or South Africa you have a fighting chance but would never recommend any other IMG attempt to move to Canada. Chances are so low you will ever practice. Young already trained family doctors may have a better chance if they are willing to go to a underserviced area but there are so many Canadians who have been also trained abroad who are likely to get preference and are fighting to change the system so they do get preference before other IMGs. If you are or want to be a psychiatrist or pathologist or speak French you have a better shot than other specialties. If you are an IMG and will need a spot in radiology, ophthalmology, dermatology, plastics, etc. there is no point in coming to Canada since there will be no residency spot available. I also know a lot about the medical system and how hard it is for doctors to move around the system. People hear about long wait times to see doctors and think that Canada has a shortage of doctors and it will be easy to get hired. Totally incorrect. When people read what they will need to do to get licensed in Canada it seems long but doable. The issue is getting a residency spot. These are all budgets issues and Canada is unlikely to have the budget to hire lots of IMGs when we are producing more doctors and retaining them. If IMGs want to move somewhere the US, UK, other parts of Europe will give them much better chances of actually practicing. What often happens when IMGs realize they won’t be able to practice in Canada is that they wait to get citizenship and leave or leave their families and work abroad. Often they let their PR lapse so they don’t have to pay taxes. None of these options benefit Canada. I was shocked to see how little research some IMGs (as well as other health professionals) do when applying for PR. They arrive in Canada and start to realize that they may never be able to practice again.

 

[keesio]

Except you know NOTHING about this individual's actual credentials, not about the individual's education, training, experience, or other credentials.

AND again, no matter what the numbers are, there is a career path, at the very least, for some foreign educated and trained health care professionals. DEPENDING on their individual, personal qualifications, and depending on their willingness and ability to obtain further education, training, and experience in Canada.

Negatively dismissing the value of an individual's educational endeavors abroad without knowing even minimal details about that individual's personal qualifications is NOT warranted. It is malarkey.

Let's be clear: the path to becoming a licensed physician or surgeon is NOT easy, period. Statistically one can accurately cite the very small percentage of high school and university students with hopes of becoming a doctor who will succeed in doing so. But it is NOT a lottery. It is not a game of chance. It is about ability, opportunity, effort, support, and some luck. Who can and who will become a doctor DEPENDS ON THE INDIVIDUAL'S PERSONAL QUALIFICATIONS, and a LOT of WORK. Yeah, the odds are steep. Even for those who are smart, born in Canada, and well educated.

We never know everything about someone's credentials here. This is an anonymous forum, how can we know all the details? But we can provide pretty definitive answers to general sentiments regarding the situation of foreign trained professionals. Of course there is always a way, always an exception to the rule. But it is also good to be real and say that it is difficult to set expectations straight.

For example, it is fair to say that trying to sponsor your partner via conjugal relationship category for people from western countries is likely to fail. People say this pretty definitely and it is pretty accepted. But of course people have also dug up some cases where it did succeed and like to point out that everyone was wrong. Same with not declaring dependents when you land as PR and then try to sponsor them after. Those two scenarios are likely to fail but again each case is different and there is always a chance. But most people will say that it is a futile endeavor and the vast majority will agree with this.

canuck78 said the chances for getting residency is LOW. Not zero, but simply low. That is generally a true statement. Canada has many barriers for foreign trained health professionals. This is fact and it is a problem that I feel needs to be remedied. It is important to point this out to people before they attempt this path. Many people have complained that they wish they knew how hard it was before they applied, otherwise they might not have wasted the money and time. They felt misled about their opportunities here. This is what we (canuck78 and I) are trying to say.

 

[dpenabill]

We never know everything about someone's credentials here. This is an anonymous forum, how can we know all the details?

What you affirmed, and the part which is offensive, is @canuck78's statement "don’t understand the point in attending medical school abroad if you want to live in Canada . . ."

You admit you did so without knowing that individual's personal qualifications. It is readily apparent you also knew nothing about that individual's expectations.

This is NOT at all comparable to clarifying how certain rules apply, particularly certain rules regarding which there tends to be some confusion if not outright misunderstanding. (Requirements for sponsoring a conjugal partner involves such a rule; a more common one here is the rule allowing PRs credit toward the RO for time abroad employed by a Canadian business; among many others.)

Callously dismissing a young person's educational ambitions, especially when NO QUESTION AT ALL related to that has so much as been hinted, and when the comment is offered with NO understanding at all about that individual's expectations let alone qualifications, that is NOT about setting "expectations straight." Moreover, however, the reason I challenged this particular instance is that this appears to be part of an escalating pattern in this forum in which gratuitously negative judgments are posted, many of which are barely if at all relevant to the subject. I have no desire or intent to play forum cop, but occasionally gratuitous and unwarranted negativity needs to be called out for what it is.

For example, these days just about any question about the prospect of obtaining H&C relief by a young person who is a PR removed from Canada while a minor is as likely to generate derogatory comments as much as clarification about how H&C factors are considered. More than occasionally the posted responses include an attack on the availability of H&C relief itself for removed-as-a-minor-PRs, even though political opinions about what the law should be is NOT relevant to the questions asked. No particularly active imagination is necessary to discern an anti-immigrant sentiment at play behind some of these comments.

Thus, even though the "low" chances commentary was gratuitous (not relevant to any questions asked), as a general observation that was not the particularly objectionable part of what was said. Rather, it was the gratuitously negative innuendo judging the value of the young person's education, insinuating his schooling abroad was essentially worthless, that was so offensive.

We never know everything about someone's credentials here. This is an anonymous forum, how can we know all the details? But we can provide pretty definitive answers to general sentiments regarding the situation of foreign trained professionals. Of course there is always a way, always an exception to the rule. But it is also good to be real and say that it is difficult to set expectations straight.

For example, it is fair to say that trying to sponsor your partner via conjugal relationship category for people from western countries is likely to fail. People say this pretty definitely and it is pretty accepted. But of course people have also dug up some cases where it did succeed and like to point out that everyone was wrong. Same with not declaring dependents when you land as PR and then try to sponsor them after. Those two scenarios are likely to fail but again each case is different and there is always a chance. But most people will say that it is a futile endeavor and the vast majority will agree with this.

canuck78 said the chances for getting residency is LOW. Not zero, but simply low. That is generally a true statement. Canada has many barriers for foreign trained health professionals. This is fact and it is a problem that I feel needs to be remedied. It is important to point this out to people before they attempt this path. Many people have complained that they wish they knew how hard it was before they applied, otherwise they might not have wasted the money and time. They felt misled about their opportunities here. This is what we (canuck78 and I) are trying to say.