outland vs. inland for French citizen?

[hillb]

Hi all,

Here's our situation:

- I'm Canadian and my husband is French; we just got married in August and have been together for four years, with lots of documentary evidence to prove it. We're together in Quebec right now and have been since June, and our intention is to continue living here together. When my husband came into the province in June, they gave him a 3-month visitor visa instead of the regular 6-month one because they didn't like that he's been in Quebec so many times over the past couple of years. That 3-month tourist visa ran out on September 15th; about a month before that, we applied for a tourist visa extension and we're still waiting for the response on that. Our understanding is that he can stay in Canada while we're waiting for this response.

- Meanwhile, we're putting his residency documents together and trying to decide whether he should apply with an inland or an outland application. He would like to have the work permit that he would be able to apply for along with the inland application, but at the same time we've heard that outland applications are typically processed faster. (Does anyone know if this is truly the case for French citizens?) At the same time, we're concerned about what will happen if he applies with the outland application and receives a response to his visitor-visa extension inquiry that says he needs to leave immediately. Someone has told us that in that case he can just make another, second ask for a visitor-visa extension (and keep doing this again and again while his outland residency application is in processing). Can these just be done infinitely? Not sure.

- There appear to be two outland categories: one saying that he's applying outland but is living in Canada (which is the case, in that he's here in Canada right now) and another that says that he's applying outland and is living outside of Canada. Is one preferable to the other? Or are they essentially the same, because the application will go through the same processing office in either case?

- Our case is pretty straightforward in that we're married and have been together for some time, but we have spent nearly our entire four-year relationship on the road (traveling) and he hasn't worked in that time, so maybe this will slow things down. Our French friend applied outland and received his residency in four months, but that was some years ago and I think things have changed.

Thanks so much for your guidance! —HB

 

[k.h.p.]

If they only gave him a 3-month stay instead of 6-months, then a status extension is a crapshoot. Hopefully it works for you.

As you've noted, inland is the only option that gets you the work permit. Outland does not. Spouses who apply inland should generally not leave Canada for more than a couple of weeks as that may be seen as abandoning the application, and if a spouse leaves Canada and gets denied re-entry, the application will be abandoned.

If you apply outland, he would be required to leave Canada to do any biometrics and attend any interviews required, even if you apply outland and put a Canadian address. He could leave Canada and try to return, but admission is never guaranteed and is subject to the CBSA.

I'm not sure if outlands are always faster - I've heard what you've said as well, but I've also heard that the two paths are about the same right now.

You cannot just keep applying for extensions if you're denied for the current application. If his extension is denied, he will have been out of status since September 15 and will have been overstaying; he would then have to apply for a restoration of status. Importantly, in extension applications, you have to prove ties outside of Canada and provide reasons that would give the visa officer a basis in believing that you'd leave Canada when your admission expired. That isn't your intention here, which can cause some issues. He is allowed to have a "dual intent," that is, intend to remain in Canada but also intend to leave if he loses status.

The most important thing in your case is the limitation of stay to three months. That means that CBSA already felt he was not a genuine visitor. More restrictions and denial of entry would likely flow from that unless something substantially changes.

 

[hillb]

If they only gave him a 3-month stay instead of 6-months, then a status extension is a crapshoot. Hopefully it works for you.

As you've noted, inland is the only option that gets you the work permit. Outland does not. Spouses who apply inland should generally not leave Canada for more than a couple of weeks as that may be seen as abandoning the application, and if a spouse leaves Canada and gets denied re-entry, the application will be abandoned.

If you apply outland, he would be required to leave Canada to do any biometrics and attend any interviews required, even if you apply outland and put a Canadian address. He could leave Canada and try to return, but admission is never guaranteed and is subject to the CBSA.

I'm not sure if outlands are always faster - I've heard what you've said as well, but I've also heard that the two paths are about the same right now.

You cannot just keep applying for extensions if you're denied for the current application. If his extension is denied, he will have been out of status since September 15 and will have been overstaying; he would then have to apply for a restoration of status. Importantly, in extension applications, you have to prove ties outside of Canada and provide reasons that would give the visa officer a basis in believing that you'd leave Canada when your admission expired. That isn't your intention here, which can cause some issues. He is allowed to have a "dual intent," that is, intend to remain in Canada but also intend to leave if he loses status.

The most important thing in your case is the limitation of stay to three months. That means that CBSA already felt he was not a genuine visitor. More restrictions and denial of entry would likely flow from that unless something substantially changes.

Thank you so much for the response. We've been told by several people that while you're waiting for the response to your visitor-visa extension request you can stay in the country. And that if the response comes and says you need to leave, that you then have two weeks to pack up and do so. Does this sound right to you? You mention that if the extension is denied, then he will have been out of status since September 15th, but I've never heard of that before.

If we apply inland, then he's not allowed to leave Canada while the residency application is being processed, yes? But I'm still not clear on the status of people who use the inland application and then stay in Canada while it's processing, sometimes for 12 or more months. Do all of these applicants apply for visitor-visa extensions? Or are you automatically granted the right to stay in Canada until processing is done once you've submitted an inland application? What if we submit an inland application next week, and in a few weeks from now my husband receives the response to his visitor-visa extension query and he's been denied? I'm not clear on how these two processes fit together. Thanks so much again for your help.

 

[k.h.p.]

He can wait in Canada on implied status while the extension is being processed. If he is denied the extension, he has lost status. He will be given 30 days (typically) to leave the country.

If you apply inland and apply for an open work permit, you are on implied status if your initial status expires after you've applied until you have a decision on the OWP. If the OWP is approved, you have status. If it is denied, well, your PR app is likely to be denied.

A PR application does not give you implied status. The work permit does. If you apply this week for inland PR and do not apply for the OWP, if the visitor extension is denied, your husband will no longer have status. Theoretically, he is supposed to leave the country, but many people overstay.

 

[hillb]

He can wait in Canada on implied status while the extension is being processed. If he is denied the extension, he has lost status. He will be given 30 days (typically) to leave the country.

If you apply inland and apply for an open work permit, you are on implied status if your initial status expires after you've applied until you have a decision on the OWP. If the OWP is approved, you have status. If it is denied, well, your PR app is likely to be denied.

A PR application does not give you implied status. The work permit does. If you apply this week for inland PR and do not apply for the OWP, if the visitor extension is denied, your husband will no longer have status. Theoretically, he is supposed to leave the country, but many people overstay.

Thanks again! It seems like if we apply using an outland PR application, then we'll be subject to whatever decision is made re. his visitor-visa extension. And if he's denied, he'll need to leave within a month. If we apply inland and at the same time for an OWP, then he'll have the implied status that the OWP application provides — or it appears that that's what you're saying! So if we apply inland and for the OWP before we get the response about his visitor-visa extension, then even if he is denied for the visitor-visa extension he'll still have implied status from the OWP application and get to stay until we get the OWP response — yes? Gah, so confusing...

 

[k.h.p.]

Yes, that's correct.

And you have to apply inland and for the OWP before he gets an answer on his extension request because you have to have a valid status to be eligible for the OWP.

If he is denied for the extension, he cannot apply for the OWP. He can apply inland, but he will not receive implied status for the PR application.

All that being said, people have and do live out-of-status awaiting a PR application result. It isn't comfortable, but it is done.

 

[hillb]

Yes, that's correct.

And you have to apply inland and for the OWP before he gets an answer on his extension request because you have to have a valid status to be eligible for the OWP.

If he is denied for the extension, he cannot apply for the OWP. He can apply inland, but he will not receive implied status for the PR application.

All that being said, people have and do live out-of-status awaiting a PR application result. It isn't comfortable, but it is done.

If he's denied the extension after he's already submitted the application for the OWP, will that at all affect the OWP app? It seems not, if the app has already been submitted once the denial comes, but want to make sure.

And what does it mean to live out-of-status while awaiting a PR application result? I guess it means that you're living here illegally — doesn't that mess up your chances of obtaining residency? Not sure if I understand what this really implies.

 

[k.h.p.]

If he submits the OWP app before being denied an extension, and provided the PR and OWP apps are not returned for missing documents or signatures, he gets implied status from the OWP app.

Yes, living without status means living illegally. Public policy of reuniting families means that IRCC and CBSA will typically not deport people in this situation, but don't leave Canada, don't work illegally, etc. Being out of status does not change your eligibility for PR.

 

[hillb]

If he submits the OWP app before being denied an extension, and provided the PR and OWP apps are not returned for missing documents or signatures, he gets implied status from the OWP app.

Yes, living without status means living illegally. Public policy of reuniting families means that IRCC and CBSA will typically not deport people in this situation, but don't leave Canada, don't work illegally, etc. Being out of status does not change your eligibility for PR.

OK, gotcha! A million thanks for the help.

 

[canuck_in_uk]

Thanks again! It seems like if we apply using an outland PR application, then we'll be subject to whatever decision is made re. his visitor-visa extension. And if he's denied, he'll need to leave within a month. If we apply inland and at the same time for an OWP, then he'll have the implied status that the OWP application provides — or it appears that that's what you're saying! So if we apply inland and for the OWP before we get the response about his visitor-visa extension, then even if he is denied for the visitor-visa extension he'll still have implied status from the OWP application and get to stay until we get the OWP response — yes? Gah, so confusing...

No, NOT correct. A second app submitted while already on Implied Status does NOT continue to grant Inplied Status if the first app is refused.

If he applies for the PR/OWP now and the visitor extension is later refused, he will be out of status.

 

[k.h.p.]

No, NOT correct. A second app submitted while already on Implied Status does NOT continue to grant Inplied Status if the first app is refused.

If he applies for the PR/OWP now and the visitor extension is later refused, he will be out of status.

Okay, first I've heard of that, but it does somewhat make sense.

 

[canuck_in_uk]

Okay, first I've heard of that, but it does somewhat make sense.

https://www.canada.ca/en/immigratio...s/visitors/implied-status-extending-stay.html

 

[canuck_in_uk]

If he's denied the extension after he's already submitted the application for the OWP, will that at all affect the OWP app? It seems not, if the app has already been submitted once the denial comes, but want to make sure.

And what does it mean to live out-of-status while awaiting a PR application result? I guess it means that you're living here illegally — doesn't that mess up your chances of obtaining residency? Not sure if I understand what this really implies.

If he is denied the extension, regardless of what he applies for now, he will be out of status as of the refusal date. His best option at that point is to apply for Restoration of Status. If he shows proof of applying for sponsorship, it would likely be approved.

When he applied for the visitor extension, did he state he was applying for spousal sponsorship?

 

[k.h.p.]

Ah yes, this would be the operative case:

refused, and the original permit was expired when the second application was sent, then the applicant does not have implied status and is considered out of status. (As the applicant’s original permit was expired, they must apply for restoration. The second application was missing restoration fees and would be returned to the applicant for being incomplete)

 

[hillb]

If he is denied the extension, regardless of what he applies for now, he will be out of status as of the refusal date. His best option at that point is to apply for Restoration of Status. If he shows proof of applying for sponsorship, it would likely be approved.

When he applied for the visitor extension, did he state he was applying for spousal sponsorship?

Oh, boy. Thank you so much for clarifying. He didn't state that he was applying for PR when he applied for the visitor extension, but he did write that he was now married to me, a Canadian, which wasn't yet the case when he was only granted three months on entry. And I wrote up a letter saying I'd be supporting him financially.

In this case, should we wait for the response to the visitor extension query before submitting his PR and OWP apps? Or can we just go ahead and submit those applications, and then simultaneously apply for restoration if his extension is refused? I'm not sure what can be done at the same time as what!