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Need Urgent Help!!!Can HIV positive person get PR ?

computergeek

VIP Member
Jan 31, 2012
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Vancouver BC
Category........
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Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
06-03-2012
AOR Received.
21-06-2012
File Transfer...
21-6-2012
Med's Done....
11-02-2012
Interview........
Waived
Passport Req..
26-09-2012
VISA ISSUED...
10-10-2012
LANDED..........
13-10-2012
ddigao2 said:
Hey, computergeek
Long time no see!! ;D
Just an update:
Our attorney has done all paperwork related to our case (response to the fairness letter /hiv+ spouse) and sent it to the consulate in November. On December 20 we received my partner (principal applicant) passport with his student visa (yayyy!!!), but we are still waiting for mine :)/) .
Have you heard of cases like this? The couple may receive the visas separately?

Thanks for your help, and have a very nice year 2014!! :D
That would mean that you have overturned their original basis for refusal because if one of you is deemed inadmissible, you are both deemed inadmissible. There may be additional processing required (e.g., surveillance) for your paperwork, but they should not refuse you at this point.

Congratulations on overcoming this obstacle - it's a significant victory.
 

ddigao2

Member
Jul 29, 2013
12
0
Is that so?? OMG, we are SO worried that something may go wrong at this point...
What does this "surveillance" mean? Do you think it somehow will be an obstacle to a future PR?

Thank you very very much for your help!
 

computergeek

VIP Member
Jan 31, 2012
5,143
277
124
Vancouver BC
Category........
Visa Office......
CPP-O/LA
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
06-03-2012
AOR Received.
21-06-2012
File Transfer...
21-6-2012
Med's Done....
11-02-2012
Interview........
Waived
Passport Req..
26-09-2012
VISA ISSUED...
10-10-2012
LANDED..........
13-10-2012
ddigao2 said:
Is that so?? OMG, we are SO worried that something may go wrong at this point...
What does this "surveillance" mean? Do you think it somehow will be an obstacle to a future PR?

Thank you very very much for your help!
If required, medical surveillance involves notifying officials at the provincial level and then providing you with follow-up contact rules.

What does your attorney say?
 

ddigao2

Member
Jul 29, 2013
12
0
He says:
"This is a good sign. People with inadmissible family members are inadmissible, so they would refuse his application if they were going to refuse yours."
But my partner received his visa on Dec 20... and so far I haven't received mine... Does it take so long like this?
 

computergeek

VIP Member
Jan 31, 2012
5,143
277
124
Vancouver BC
Category........
Visa Office......
CPP-O/LA
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
06-03-2012
AOR Received.
21-06-2012
File Transfer...
21-6-2012
Med's Done....
11-02-2012
Interview........
Waived
Passport Req..
26-09-2012
VISA ISSUED...
10-10-2012
LANDED..........
13-10-2012
ddigao2 said:
He says:
"This is a good sign. People with inadmissible family members are inadmissible, so they would refuse his application if they were going to refuse yours."
But my partner received his visa on Dec 20... and so far I haven't received mine... Does it take so long like this?
That's exactly what I said: if he got his visa, you will get yours.

LOL. This is CIC. If it requires coordination with provincial government then yes, it will take longer. But you will get your paperwork just not as fast as you'd like.
 

rosjana16

Full Member
Feb 14, 2014
20
0
ComputerGeek
You are a God Send, or whatever you believe in!!

Here is our situation:
I am a US Citizen, have been living in BC for 8+ years on work permits.
My wife applied for an open work permit and received it January 2012. But when she took her medical for it, she was diagnosed with HIV. She then had to take a 2nd follow up medical. Which we never heard anything back from it. She started on HIV meds in BC August 2012.
Her WP was valid only until June 2013 and she applied for another open WP/extension which she received to coincide with my WP that expires May 2013.
So she has been living and working in BC and receiving HIV meds sinces August 2012.
She takes Truvada,Reyataz(Atazanavir), Norvir(Ritonavir)

We are now going to apply for PR. Does any of the above, the fact that she has been living in BC and receiving her meds free have any effect or change our circumstance? Or that she has received new WP well after she has been receiving the free meds in BC?

Some more info.
I make more than above average money(200k+) I was thinking that is possibly why they have let her stay, because i pay a lot of taxes?
She is on my extended health plan from Manulife
 

computergeek

VIP Member
Jan 31, 2012
5,143
277
124
Vancouver BC
Category........
Visa Office......
CPP-O/LA
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
06-03-2012
AOR Received.
21-06-2012
File Transfer...
21-6-2012
Med's Done....
11-02-2012
Interview........
Waived
Passport Req..
26-09-2012
VISA ISSUED...
10-10-2012
LANDED..........
13-10-2012
rosjana16 said:
ComputerGeek
You are a God Send, or whatever you believe in!!

Here is our situation:
I am a US Citizen, have been living in BC for 8+ years on work permits.
My wife applied for an open work permit and received it January 2012. But when she took her medical for it, she was diagnosed with HIV. She then had to take a 2nd follow up medical. Which we never heard anything back from it. She started on HIV meds in BC August 2012.
Her WP was valid only until June 2013 and she applied for another open WP/extension which she received to coincide with my WP that expires May 2013.
So she has been living and working in BC and receiving HIV meds sinces August 2012.
She takes Truvada,Reyataz(Atazanavir), Norvir(Ritonavir)

We are now going to apply for PR. Does any of the above, the fact that she has been living in BC and receiving her meds free have any effect or change our circumstance? Or that she has received new WP well after she has been receiving the free meds in BC?

Some more info.
I make more than above average money(200k+) I was thinking that is possibly why they have let her stay, because i pay a lot of taxes?
She is on my extended health plan from Manulife
I have what I think are some very good arguments to push CIC on their position with respect to treatment in BC but if you really want to pursue PR you should dig in and prepare for a fight.

In my case, I had a good income (similar to your own situation). I also had insurance and a PHSP (a form of health savings account) sufficient to pay 100% of the cost of the drugs. CIC summarily rejected it. Note that at no time have I ever taken advantage of the research study at St. Paul's that is partially funded by the province. Despite this: 100% insurance coverage, never having taken the "free" drugs, having been required to file a sworn affidavit that I would not do so, the rejection was boiler plate with a one line statement that BC pays for the drugs and thus I am ineligible for PR.

In addition to the five arguments raised in the original court filings (three specific to the process in my case and two Charter arguments) I have since developed two additional arguments: (1) that the Province does not fund these drugs. They fund a research study. The drugs are covered 0% by Fair PharmaCare. To participate in the research study, the participants waive their right to privacy as all of their medical information is shared with the research group and become part of their ongoing large scale study; (2) Canada is a signatory to a UN convention on the treatment of people with disabilities. It antedates IRPA and thus is the controlling law. The implementation of discrimination against HIV positive people by CIC contravenes Canada's obligations under that UN Convention.

I don't expect either argument will be accepted by CIC in any case, but presenting them sets one up quite well for a legal challenge in Federal Court. CIC has a poor track record in Court against those applicants who challenge A38 "excessive demand" findings. But most people don't have the stomach for the fight.

I learned a tremendous amount about CIC during the 39 months it took for me to successfully obtain PR (second application). I learned they "lose" quite a lot of the things one sends them. While I'm sure there is no malice intended, it is convenient how they lose such information.

Even though they rejected my initial application, the mere act of challenging it and being granted leave forced someone on the legal side to review what had been done. While I do not know that this is the case, their actions strongly suggest they realized I was likely to be granted Judicial Review (which means that the Court would have quashed the original decision and sent it back for re-determination by CIC). The second application (a sponsored application) was granted in record time and without following the process described in OP 15 (mandatory interview, sponsor notification, 60 day period for sponsor to withdraw).

Note that BC also permits "opting out" of health care coverage. This is not something most provinces permit, but BC and AB do permit it. If your wife is a US citizen, she has the legal right to obtain US based health care coverage (even if not living in the US) and can pick a plan that provides coverage. It's not a cheap option - figure US$5k or so - but it is an option. If she chooses to do so, do not pick an ACA based exchange plan. Washington state has excellent plans and you can buy directly from the insurance carrier.

The reason for this is simple: exchange based plans are prohibited from accepting "copay assistance" from the pharmaceutical companies. Non-exchange based plans do not have such a restriction. Thus, if you pick an 80% coverage plan for Reyataz (Atazanavir), Truvada (emtrictabine/tenofovir) and Norvir (ritonavir) you will find that the cost will be something like:

Reyataz - CAD 648/mo
Truvada - CAD 783/mo
Norvir - CAD 87/mo

(Prices are from the Quebec formulary - search "RAMQ formulary").

US prices are approximately 50% higher, so instead of CAD$1518 per month, figure ~USD$2300 per month. Copay for that is $460 per month. However, the copay assistance plans from Gilead (Truvada) and AbbyVie (Reyataz) will cover all but a small amount of the copay (less than $100/mo). She would have to personally bring them into Canada (Schedule F is permitted for supplies up to 90 days as long as they are imported by the patient personally and only for personal use).

Another argument (presented during the fairness letter response) is to argue about costs. There is a company in Manitoba that sells generic equivalents - but they are geo-locked (so you cannot get to their website from Canada. But using an anonymizing browser such as Tor permits you to access the site even from Canada). While Norvir (ritonavir) is actually cheaper the other two are much cheaper when using the generic versions (available from some reputable manufacturers in India, where patent laws are quite a bit different). We didn't do that either, but it leads to pricing that is below the excessive demand threshold.

At any rate, it's possible to prevail, but it means you need to be willing to fight. You also need to do your own homework because even the best attorney (and there are only a couple I could suggest with experience in this space) won't be as interested in your case as you are.

I hope this helps.
 

rosjana16

Full Member
Feb 14, 2014
20
0
computergeek said:
I have what I think are some very good arguments to push CIC on their position with respect to treatment in BC but if you really want to pursue PR you should dig in and prepare for a fight.

In my case, I had a good income (similar to your own situation). I also had insurance and a PHSP (a form of health savings account) sufficient to pay 100% of the cost of the drugs. CIC summarily rejected it. Note that at no time have I ever taken advantage of the research study at St. Paul's that is partially funded by the province. Despite this: 100% insurance coverage, never having taken the "free" drugs, having been required to file a sworn affidavit that I would not do so, the rejection was boiler plate with a one line statement that BC pays for the drugs and thus I am ineligible for PR.

In addition to the five arguments raised in the original court filings (three specific to the process in my case and two Charter arguments) I have since developed two additional arguments: (1) that the Province does not fund these drugs. They fund a research study. The drugs are covered 0% by Fair PharmaCare. To participate in the research study, the participants waive their right to privacy as all of their medical information is shared with the research group and become part of their ongoing large scale study; (2) Canada is a signatory to a UN convention on the treatment of people with disabilities. It antedates IRPA and thus is the controlling law. The implementation of discrimination against HIV positive people by CIC contravenes Canada's obligations under that UN Convention.

I don't expect either argument will be accepted by CIC in any case, but presenting them sets one up quite well for a legal challenge in Federal Court. CIC has a poor track record in Court against those applicants who challenge A38 "excessive demand" findings. But most people don't have the stomach for the fight.

I learned a tremendous amount about CIC during the 39 months it took for me to successfully obtain PR (second application). I learned they "lose" quite a lot of the things one sends them. While I'm sure there is no malice intended, it is convenient how they lose such information.

Even though they rejected my initial application, the mere act of challenging it and being granted leave forced someone on the legal side to review what had been done. While I do not know that this is the case, their actions strongly suggest they realized I was likely to be granted Judicial Review (which means that the Court would have quashed the original decision and sent it back for re-determination by CIC). The second application (a sponsored application) was granted in record time and without following the process described in OP 15 (mandatory interview, sponsor notification, 60 day period for sponsor to withdraw).

Note that BC also permits "opting out" of health care coverage. This is not something most provinces permit, but BC and AB do permit it. If your wife is a US citizen, she has the legal right to obtain US based health care coverage (even if not living in the US) and can pick a plan that provides coverage. It's not a cheap option - figure US$5k or so - but it is an option. If she chooses to do so, do not pick an ACA based exchange plan. Washington state has excellent plans and you can buy directly from the insurance carrier.

The reason for this is simple: exchange based plans are prohibited from accepting "copay assistance" from the pharmaceutical companies. Non-exchange based plans do not have such a restriction. Thus, if you pick an 80% coverage plan for Reyataz (Atazanavir), Truvada (emtrictabine/tenofovir) and Norvir (ritonavir) you will find that the cost will be something like:

Reyataz - CAD 648/mo
Truvada - CAD 783/mo
Norvir - CAD 87/mo

(Prices are from the Quebec formulary - search "RAMQ formulary").

US prices are approximately 50% higher, so instead of CAD$1518 per month, figure ~USD$2300 per month. Copay for that is $460 per month. However, the copay assistance plans from Gilead (Truvada) and AbbyVie (Reyataz) will cover all but a small amount of the copay (less than $100/mo). She would have to personally bring them into Canada (Schedule F is permitted for supplies up to 90 days as long as they are imported by the patient personally and only for personal use).

Another argument (presented during the fairness letter response) is to argue about costs. There is a company in Manitoba that sells generic equivalents - but they are geo-locked (so you cannot get to their website from Canada. But using an anonymizing browser such as Tor permits you to access the site even from Canada). While Norvir (ritonavir) is actually cheaper the other two are much cheaper when using the generic versions (available from some reputable manufacturers in India, where patent laws are quite a bit different). We didn't do that either, but it leads to pricing that is below the excessive demand threshold.

At any rate, it's possible to prevail, but it means you need to be willing to fight. You also need to do your own homework because even the best attorney (and there are only a couple I could suggest with experience in this space) won't be as interested in your case as you are.

I hope this helps.
Of course it all helps! You are a source of great info.
How much did this all cost you to fight, if you don't mind me asking? it may not be worth it in the end.
I am using an Immigration Lawyer to apply for our CEC PR application, and he has stated that he would fight any rejection for us and spoke about setting up a fund, but i just don't know if it will end up just not being worth it financially.

Also, you said you were "granted a leave", what does that mean?
Thanks
 

computergeek

VIP Member
Jan 31, 2012
5,143
277
124
Vancouver BC
Category........
Visa Office......
CPP-O/LA
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
06-03-2012
AOR Received.
21-06-2012
File Transfer...
21-6-2012
Med's Done....
11-02-2012
Interview........
Waived
Passport Req..
26-09-2012
VISA ISSUED...
10-10-2012
LANDED..........
13-10-2012
rosjana16 said:
Of course it all helps! You are a source of great info.
How much did this all cost you to fight, if you don't mind me asking? it may not be worth it in the end.
I am using an Immigration Lawyer to apply for our CEC PR application, and he has stated that he would fight any rejection for us and spoke about setting up a fund, but i just don't know if it will end up just not being worth it financially.

Also, you said you were "granted a leave", what does that mean?
Thanks
My original attorney charged $4k for the FSW application. When I received the fairness letter he basically backed away and I hired a different attorney (one with quite a bit of experience in medical inadmissibility, including successful Judicial Review applications) for an additional $3k (plus expenses) to handle the fairness response. When I decided to challenge the decision in court, the cost was an additional $3200 plus expenses to file the initial application and an additional $1000 when the application for leave was granted.

My second application was self-prepared (sponsored spouse). By that time I had a pretty god idea of what needed to be done.

When you challenge an immigration decision in Court, you are not automatically given a hearing. That is, hearing your case is discretionary - you have to convince a judge that there are issues worthy of the Court's attention. This is known as an "application for leave" - you are requesting the leave of the Court to present your case. The second part is called an "Application for Judicial Review". If Judicial Review is granted it means you've won your case - the Court has reviewed and overturned the original decision.

When you apply for both simultaneously (which is the norm) it is referred to as the "Application for Leave and Judicial Review". It's a formal legal process.

(1) File initial Application for Leave and Judicial Review, usually with a Rule 9 request (this asks for the written reasons for the refusal). This is actually inexpensive - $50. From looking at my electronic case notes, they take these seriously. My notes are very clear that this is a high priority for the CIC office (in my case NYC) to respond ASAP.

Normally, the government files papers denying your application and serving notice as to who will represent CIC (someone from Justice Canada). In rare circumstances, the government might agree, in which case the whole process is fairly quick. I'd be surprised if 0.1% of cases end up this way.

Once the written reasons have been given, you (or your attorney) have 30 days to prepare your legal arguments. At that point you file any affidavits required and a "Memorandum of Law" that basically sets out the case for why the Court should hear your case.

(2) 30 days after your legal arguments are filed, Justice Canada responds to your legal arguments. This is the "Response".

(3) 10 days after Justice Canada files their response, you can respond to their legal arguments. This is the "Reply". At this point you also formally request that your Application for Leave be considered by the Court.

(4) The Court either grants your Application for Leave or denies it. If it is denied, you are done. The Court does not explain why they denied it, they just do. If it is granted, it comes with a scheduling order. This scheduling order establishes the deadlines for various filings that must be done prior to the oral hearing. The oral hearing must be within 90 days of the Court granting the Application for Leave.

Approximately 20% of Applications for Leave are granted a hearing based upon my informal review. This may have changed as the refugee process has changed (most applications relate to refugee cases).

Those are busy 90 days. Each side files further legal briefs and affidavits. There is an opportunity to cross-examine the parties (so your attorney can question the medical officer and/or immigration officer).

Normally this is straight-forward. In my case it was (literally) a mess, including a motion to amend the scheduling order (I think we threatened to file a motion to strike, but Justice Canada agreed to withdraw some material). The whole thing was surprisingly messy for a process that almost always seems to be rather smooth. The docket for my case is very different than all the cases I have reviewed in the past.

Ultimately, Justice Canada agreed to "see what they could do" to wrap up the second application. It's clear there were a few phone calls placed (5 weeks before the hearing date!) and suddenly my application was reviewed twice: once by an officer that said "it all looks good, but we need to do more work because of this prior refusal" and a few days later by a more senior officer (one that seems to handle complex cases) that said "the prior refusal doesn't apply, everything else is in order, this file is RFV ['ready for visa']". Two weeks later (again, I think it was pushed along by a phone call) LA requested my passport. That same day my attorney filed a notice of discontinuance (which means I dropped the legal action). Two weeks after that I received my passport and COPR back from LA.

Only you can decide if it is worth fighting, but I'd say your odds of success are good - assuming you have the right team representing you.
 

simeon_tap

Newbie
Feb 28, 2014
3
0
Hi, I have a question

Lets assume somebody already has PR and lives in Canada.
If this person will get infected with TB or HIV (and CIC somehow get to know about this), he (or she) will he lose PR status or not ?
 

computergeek

VIP Member
Jan 31, 2012
5,143
277
124
Vancouver BC
Category........
Visa Office......
CPP-O/LA
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
06-03-2012
AOR Received.
21-06-2012
File Transfer...
21-6-2012
Med's Done....
11-02-2012
Interview........
Waived
Passport Req..
26-09-2012
VISA ISSUED...
10-10-2012
LANDED..........
13-10-2012
simeon_tap said:
Hi, I have a question

Lets assume somebody already has PR and lives in Canada.
If this person will get infected with TB or HIV (and CIC somehow get to know about this), he (or she) will he lose PR status or not ?
Such a person would not lose PR status. Losing PR status requires issues of criminality or failure to meet the residency obligation.
 

simeon_tap

Newbie
Feb 28, 2014
3
0
Cool :) Its different in different countries... As far as I know, if you have Russian PR, and get infected, you will lose your Russian PR
 

computergeek

VIP Member
Jan 31, 2012
5,143
277
124
Vancouver BC
Category........
Visa Office......
CPP-O/LA
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
06-03-2012
AOR Received.
21-06-2012
File Transfer...
21-6-2012
Med's Done....
11-02-2012
Interview........
Waived
Passport Req..
26-09-2012
VISA ISSUED...
10-10-2012
LANDED..........
13-10-2012
simeon_tap said:
Cool :) Its different in different countries... As far as I know, if you have Russian PR, and get infected, you will lose your Russian PR
[/quote

While it is difficult to obtain PR in Canada with an HIV positive test result, it is not impossible. The US doesn't even test for it any longer, and having it is not a bar to immigration. Of course this also reflects differences in the way health care is funded - in Canada, it is funded by provincial and federal government. In the US, it is paid for by private insurance typically, with the insurance paid for by individuals and/or employers.

I'm not surprised that Russia would be much more challenging - they do not permit HIV positive visitors.
 

ddigao2

Member
Jul 29, 2013
12
0
Dear computergeek.

I'm so so so so so happy to announce that my visa was approved! I've received the worker visa w-1.

Thank you soo much for all the things that you taught me in this forum. Thank you very much!!!

Now, part II: start planning the PR process...

Thanks a lot!!!
 

computergeek

VIP Member
Jan 31, 2012
5,143
277
124
Vancouver BC
Category........
Visa Office......
CPP-O/LA
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
06-03-2012
AOR Received.
21-06-2012
File Transfer...
21-6-2012
Med's Done....
11-02-2012
Interview........
Waived
Passport Req..
26-09-2012
VISA ISSUED...
10-10-2012
LANDED..........
13-10-2012
ddigao2 said:
Dear computergeek.

I'm so so so so so happy to announce that my visa was approved! I've received the worker visa w-1.

Thank you soo much for all the things that you taught me in this forum. Thank you very much!!!

Now, part II: start planning the PR process...

Thanks a lot!!!
Congratulations! Best wishes for your life in Canada.