Need some clarity on PR renewal and the so called "secondary review"

[747-captain]

Hello everyone!

I recently became a PR on Feb. 23, 2016. I stayed 2 days in Canada at my sister's house in the greater Toronto area and then left for India to visit my Dad and Mom, who I hadn't seen in 15 years. I returned to Toronto on Mar. 22, 2016 using a PRTD and stayed for 8 days. I flew back to the San Francisco bay area on April 30th, using my advance parole (I have an adjustment of status green card app going on in the US for the last 18 years - long and complicated story). I did this because I just graduated from UC Berkeley, and without any experience, it would be literally impossible to get a proper job in Canada in my field (Electrical Engineering and Computer Science) since the job market is so bad there.

Now, I plan to live in the bay area for the next 2.5 years or so, work here and save a good amount of money and then head to Canada just before I need to meet my RO obligations (sometime maybe around November or December of 2018?). Just to make it simpler let's forget the 10 days residency that I already have. Let's say I get back to Canada Nov. 23rd, 2018. That gives me my 730 days + a 3 month buffer = 820 days (well more than what I need) to fullfill my RO. Let's say I take away roughly 30 days from that to take some short trips to visit family back in the US etc. I will still have 790 days.

After reading stuff in this section of the forum, I was shocked beyond belief to find out that since I will be "cutting it pretty close" I would most likely find myself in something called "secondary review" while trying to renew my PR card! The shocking part is that it could take 17 to 18 months if this happens with practically no accountability from CIC!

To this end, I have scoured the threads to find information on the negative consequences of this situation. Many people on here keep saying "Don't worry, you can live in Canada with an expired PR without any problems". Actually this is not at all true in a practical sense, unless maybe you're a millionaire and simply can live in your house and not do anything for 17 or 18 months!!

I would truly appreciate it if people in the know can chime in and help me with my concerns. So here they are:

I'm assuming you need a valid PR to get a job (even if you currently have a job you might get laid off, or might need to change jobs for a million other reasons), and you need a valid PR to join school if you want to go on for higher education. You might want to open a new bank account. You might need to do a million other things that need a valid PR card, that I've not even thought of yet!!

One cannot simply put their life on hold for 17 or 18 months (or whatever infinite amount of time they decide to take to renew your PR). This is insanity at its best! It really puzzles me, because these types of ridiculous and outrageous things do not happen in the United States. Here in the US, even if a particular process did take very long, they would not simply let you "hang in the balance". You would be provided some sort of "INTERIM" card with a short validity period, that you have to renew every so often until your "PERMANENT" card is decided upon.

1)
So do they have any provision at all to provide any sort of temporary card for those 17 or 18 months? I'm assuming no, since I have not heard anyone mention anything.

2)
Is there anything one can do if they need to do any of the things I've mentioned above that require a valid PR card to be presented? Does CIC really require one to put their entire lives "on hold" for such an insane length of time? Are there any other alternate solutions? I can understand them to expect you to not travel outside Canada for that period of time, but how do they expect you to live in Canada without a job and all of the other everyday things that might require a PR card? That is totally and unbelievably absurd!!

Thanks guys for sharing your thoughts and shedding some light on what appears to be an insane and unacceptable situation!

 

[foodie69]

As far as I know, your permanent residence status has nothing to do with a valid PR card. It is only a card that expires, not your status. To get a job you need a SIN number, that is it. I never showed my PR card to anyone for jobs..

The problem with an expired card is when you travel outside Canada by plane, the airline might not let you board. If you are visa exempt, you will need an eTA soon, but as a PR one does not qualify. My 2 cents, others chime in..

 

[747-captain]

As far as I know, your permanent residence status has nothing to do with a valid PR card. It is only a card that expires, not your status. To get a job you need a SIN number, that is it. I never showed my PR card to anyone for jobs..

The problem with an expired card is when you travel outside Canada by plane, the airline might not let you board. If you are visa exempt, you will need an eTA soon, but as a PR one does not qualify. My 2 cents, others chime in..

Thanks for your response!

OK as far as jobs go, that makes sense then. How about if you want to pursue higher education or want to do other things (various benefits that a PR is entitled to)? I've seen the websites of many universities and colleges that say that to be considered a "domestic" student one must be a citizen or PR (I don't recall if it stated that they need a copy of a valid PR).

 

[Rob_TO]

Is there anything one can do if they need to do any of the things I've mentioned above that require a valid PR card to be presented? Does CIC really require one to put their entire lives "on hold" for such an insane length of time? Are there any other alternate solutions? I can understand them to expect you to not travel outside Canada for that period of time, but how do they expect you to live in Canada without a job and all of the other everyday things that might require a PR card? That is totally and unbelievably absurd!!

All an employer should care about is that you have a valid SIN. Similarly they don't ask Canadian citizens to show proof of a valid passport or something to hire them, so they shouldn't do it for a PR either.

Not sure about schools what kind of IDs they ask for to prove domestic status.

As for traveling, US citizens are visa-exempt and eTA-exempt so there shouldn't be any issue there whether you have a valid PR card or not. For those not as lucky, one can always apply for a temporary PR Travel Document if traveling.

Plus who knows what the PR renewal situation will be like 5 years from now.

 

[Bcboundboy]

Your entire post seems to stem from a misunderstanding. A PR card expires. Permanent Resident Status does not (it can be lost if you don't meet the RO, which you know about). If you have met the obligations, then your status is intact and you can do all the things every other PR can do, regardless of the condition of your card.

 

[747-captain]

Thanks once again for all the responses and clarifications!

Your entire post seems to stem from a misunderstanding. A PR card expires. Permanent Resident Status does not (it can be lost if you don't meet the RO, which you know about). If you have met the obligations, then your status is intact and you can do all the things every other PR can do, regardless of the condition of your card.

True, while I do understand that one does not lose their PR status merely by the card expiring, my main concern has to do with the practical implications of being in this situation.

foodie69 and Rob_TO have alleviated my concerns regarding employment (and of course, this was the most important of my concerns). However, the question still remains, that for the myriad other benefits that accrue from being a PR, one would need a valid PR Card, as that constitutes proof of one's permanent resident status (of course, this is my assumption based on my experience here in the US).

And that is why I was hoping that the many wonderful mavens who roam these boards would be able to enlighten and reassure me that I would be able to simply say to a University, for example, that asks me to prove that I'm a PR, "sorry, I can only present to you my expired card, as I've applied for its renewal which takes an insanely long time". The point is, would all of these individuals understand the intricacies and finer points of PR status versus PR card expiration? I read somewhere that they won't even accept a COPR if it is more than a year old in many circumstances! (like opening a bank account).

 

[Bcboundboy]

The only thing you are required to hold your PR card for is boarding a commercial carrier to Canada. Anything else, a valid PR card makes it easier to demonstrate PR status, but is neither necessary nor sufficient (a person could hold a valid card having failed to meet the residency obligations, thus not being a PR anymore).

In the unlikely event you encounter anyone taking issue with an expired card, point them at the IRCC pages which repeatedly state an expiring PR card does not affect status. (cic.gc.ca/english/newcomers/about-pr.asp)

 

[Leon]

I read somewhere that they won't even accept a COPR if it is more than a year old in many circumstances! (like opening a bank account).

You are talking about getting a SIN, not bank account. You don't need PR nor SIN in order to open a bank account as long as it's not an interest bearing account. If you want to open an interest bearing account, you don't need PR either but you need a SIN. If a PR landed and did not apply for a SIN and later finds himself in the situation that he is coming back, PR card was possibly never received or is expired, he would not be able to apply for a SIN with a COPR that is more than a year old.

As for other things, once you are in Canada, you are set up with everything you need in your province, job, drivers license, health care etc. you will not find people asking for your PR card much. It is not like your life stops when your PR card expires. It's not like you must stop working, stop driving, health care cancelled etc. and you must just stay in your house all the time. I don't know where you got that idea. The problems experienced by most people are if they return with an already expired PR card or about to expire and do not meet the RO and can not renew for 2 years. In that case, they are going to need to get set up, get the drivers license, get health care and find a job and this may prove to be difficult. I have also heard from college students that they are asked for PR cards and that it is a hassle when you don't have one.

Having a 3 month buffer should be plenty. Just keep all flight tickets and boarding cards and keep your old passport if you renew it during this period.

 

[747-captain]

Thanks BCboundboy and Leon. Just the answers I was looking for! And thanks for that link. It certainly very clearly states (right from the horse's mouth) that one does not lose PR status when their PR card expires. While I knew this for a fact, I wanted to know where such an official statement exists.

It is certainly reassuring to know that in Canada most places don't ask regularly to see one's PR card. That's the impression I had and that's where my concerns arose from. Now, even if a place like a University were to ask for proof of my permanent residence (to be considered a domestic student), I could always present my expired PR card and point to that link, if they should have any questions (saying that my renewal is in process)

 

[Leon]

Thanks BCboundboy and Leon. Just the answers I was looking for! And thanks for that link. It certainly very clearly states (right from the horse's mouth) that one does not lose PR status when their PR card expires. While I knew this for a fact, I wanted to know where such an official statement exists.

It is certainly reassuring to know that in Canada most places don't ask regularly to see one's PR card. That's the impression I had and that's where my concerns arose from. Now, even if a place like a University were to ask for proof of my permanent residence (to be considered a domestic student), I could always present my expired PR card and point to that link, if they should have any questions (saying that my renewal is in process)

Here is a more detailed link for you: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/manuals/ and go to Enforcement (ENF) and check out ENF 27. In chapter 5 on page 14, you will find the following text:

The PRC was developed to provide permanent residents with a secure, durable document that allows the holder to easily prove their status to transportation companies for the purposes of travel to Canada. The paper documentation issued to permanent residents in the past, the Immigrant Visa and Record of Landing (IMM 1000), was never designed as a secure travel document and became vulnerable to forgery and misuse by impostors and people-smugglers. Its primary purpose was to prove that the holder was granted permanent resident status at some point in the past. The mere possession of the document did not serve as presumptive proof of status. Moreover, the IMM 1000 was issued as a matter of administrative procedure and was never defined by statute.

IRPA does not require permanent residents in Canada to hold a PRC nor to have one when they present themselves at a port of entry.

IRPA is the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act.

 

[Cameron2020]

One cannot simply put their life on hold for 17 or 18 months (or whatever infinite amount of time they decide to take to renew your PR). This is insanity at its best! It really puzzles me, because these types of ridiculous and outrageous things do not happen in the United States. Here in the US, even if a particular process did take very long, they would not simply let you "hang in the balance". You would be provided some sort of "INTERIM" card with a short validity period, that you have to renew every so often until your "PERMANENT" card is decided upon.

You are completely right. They don't even care to issue a temporary card while they keep people waiting for 2 years.