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Need advice: Running out of my residency obligation during the pandemic

armoured

VIP Member
Feb 1, 2015
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what are the repercussions of getting reported?
1. Will the person get deported before the expiry of the PR card?
2. Will the renewal option of PR is voided?
You will be allowed in, if reported, there will be an appeal procedure. It will take a long time during which you live and work in Canada. Travel soon and be prepared to explain why you didn't return earlier.

As other said, too early to go into details. There is a decent chance you'll be let in with no report. After which, you wait until you are in compliance to renew your pr card.

There is for the most part no problem with not having a valid pr card while within Canada, at least as far as immigration goes, you would in no sense be 'illegal.'
 
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Kalandar

Full Member
Aug 21, 2014
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Hello Folks, I hold a valid PR card and it expires on July 5th, 2021. My total number of days in Canada is 733 (as per my calculation) from the day I landed i.e 5/10/2016. . However, I am stuck in my home country for over a year now because of the pandemic and wasn't able to leave due to travel restrictions both in Canada and my home country. I have applied for my PR renewal from my home country and it did reach the Sydney office on May 14th, however, I haven't got any acknowledgement on the same and I reckon by the things are normal for me to consider travelling, my PR card will expire.

My confusion is, based on the RO days i.e 733, will I have any issues getting my PR renewed and will there be any issues getting PRTD if my PR card expires to travel back. The pandemic has really gonna affected keeping the PR status due to travel issues hence do the officers in IRCC has provisions for the same who are stuck under such cases. I would really appreciate your expert advice on the same.
 

bellaluna

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May 23, 2014
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Hello Folks, I hold a valid PR card and it expires on July 5th, 2021. My total number of days in Canada is 733 (as per my calculation) from the day I landed i.e 5/10/2016. . However, I am stuck in my home country for over a year now because of the pandemic and wasn't able to leave due to travel restrictions both in Canada and my home country. I have applied for my PR renewal from my home country and it did reach the Sydney office on May 14th, however, I haven't got any acknowledgement on the same and I reckon by the things are normal for me to consider travelling, my PR card will expire.

My confusion is, based on the RO days i.e 733, will I have any issues getting my PR renewed and will there be any issues getting PRTD if my PR card expires to travel back. The pandemic has really gonna affected keeping the PR status due to travel issues hence do the officers in IRCC has provisions for the same who are stuck under such cases. I would really appreciate your expert advice on the same.
You should be fine, even with some leniency extended.
 

Kalandar

Full Member
Aug 21, 2014
48
5
You should be fine, even with some leniency extended.
Thanks for your response. So do I have to mention anything in the Humanitarian and Compassionate ground section in the PRTD about my reasons for an extended stay in my Home country as I am not sure if my calculation that I have matches with that if IRCCs?
 

bellaluna

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May 23, 2014
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Thanks for your response. So do I have to mention anything in the Humanitarian and Compassionate ground section in the PRTD about my reasons for an extended stay in my Home country as I am not sure if my calculation that I have matches with that if IRCCs?
No need. Yours is not an H&C case.
 

Kalandar

Full Member
Aug 21, 2014
48
5
Great!! Any idea how long does it take for the PRTD process if I send the copies to IRCC by email
 

dpenabill

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Apr 2, 2010
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So do I have to mention anything in the Humanitarian and Compassionate ground section in the PRTD about my reasons for an extended stay in my Home country as I am not sure if my calculation that I have matches with that if IRCCs?
If you travel BEFORE the PR card expires, odds are good things will go OK.

If you need to apply for a PR Travel Document, it is more difficult to forecast how things will go.

My guess is that you were IN Canada for more than 4 days between May 10, 2016 and the corresponding date in 2016 for the date in 2021 you make an application for a PR TD, and thus will be in BREACH of the PR Residency Obligation. Explained in detail below. Thus I disagree with the conclusion expressed by @bellaluna, that "Yours is not an H&C case."

It may be an easy, perhaps very easy H&C case, given the Covid-19 situation and how small the breach is. BUT that depends on the particular details in your situation. Again, explained in detail below.


Hello Folks, I hold a valid PR card and it expires on July 5th, 2021. My total number of days in Canada is 733 (as per my calculation) from the day I landed i.e 5/10/2016. . However, I am stuck in my home country for over a year now because of the pandemic and wasn't able to leave due to travel restrictions both in Canada and my home country. I have applied for my PR renewal from my home country and it did reach the Sydney office on May 14th, however, I haven't got any acknowledgement on the same and I reckon by the things are normal for me to consider travelling, my PR card will expire.

My confusion is, based on the RO days i.e 733, will I have any issues getting my PR renewed and will there be any issues getting PRTD if my PR card expires to travel back. The pandemic has really gonna affected keeping the PR status due to travel issues hence do the officers in IRCC has provisions for the same who are stuck under such cases. I would really appreciate your expert advice on the same.
CAUTION: Any days you were in Canada between May 10 2016 and today, June 16, 2021, NO LONGER COUNT toward meeting the PR Residency Obligation. I am guessing that you were in Canada for 4 or more days soon after landing, and if so, based on the total of 733 days since May 10, 2016, it appears YOU are NOW in BREACH of the RO.

In breach but not by much. Not by much at all. Which suggests a very good probability that there will be NO problem IF, IF you arrive in Canada within . . . well, there's the hard part, guessing (and it is indeed guessing more than estimating) what the window is.

And as each day goes by, for days in Canada in the summer of 2016, the corresponding date in 2016 will no longer count. Only days in Canada within the last five years count (since you have passed the fifth year anniversary of landing). So the extent of the breach will depend on the extent to which your days in Canada include days here in the summer of 2016 versus the date you actually next arrive. Or the date you apply for a PR TD.

If you make the trip while your PR card is still valid, that should be OK, within a relatively safe window for leniency, especially given the Covid-19 situation. No guarantee however. And various factors can influence how it actually goes. For example, just one example among many, is how long ago was the last time you were in Canada on the date you arrive, and whether that has been three years (returning to Canada after a three year absence requires no calculating of days in Canada, since that on its face establishes a breach of the RO -- it is impossible to have been in Canada for 730 days within the last five years if the PR has been outside Canada for more than 1095 days since last in Canada).

That example looms larger if you let the PR card expire before coming to Canada and you need to apply for a PR Travel Document. Applying for a PR TD FOR-SURE triggers a RO compliance examination. Remember, a PR outside Canada who does not have a valid PR card is presumed to NOT have valid PR status (an easily overcome presumption for a PR who can show compliance with the RO).

Not sure why you proceeded contrary to the instructions for PR card applications (which explicitly say the application must be made IN Canada). Not sure, either, to what extent the failure to follow the instructions might hurt how officials perceive your case. Obviously, almost always better to be on the doing-things-right side.

There is an outside, narrow chance, a PR card will be approved, issued, and mailed to the Canadian address you provided, and someone there can forward it to you. That will NOT necessarily mean you will be OK when you use it to return to Canada. Validity dates of PR card are NOT relevant when calculating compliance with the RO. For example, if you do get a new PR card while still abroad (seems rather unlikely, but it could happen), and say you finally make the trip to Canada August 23, 2021. When you arrive at the Port-of-Entry then, August 23, 2021, if you are questioned about RO compliance the relevant five year period of time will be August 23, 2016 to August 22, 2021, and if you have been outside Canada for more than 1096 days during that period, you could be issued a 44(1) Report and Removal Order. Whether that will happen depends on many factors. Here again, how long ago you were last IN Canada can be one of the more significant factors.

All of which is NOT intended to be discouraging. So far it appears you are within a range in which CBSA and IRCC are being lenient, especially for the time being given the Covid-19 situation. But once you pass the in-breach-threshold (which you have if you spent more than four days in Canada soon after landing), the dynamics shift and how it goes can depend quite a bit on whether you are a person perceived to be deserving of keeping PR status despite having failed to comply with the RO.
 
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Kalandar

Full Member
Aug 21, 2014
48
5
@B
If you travel BEFORE the PR card expires, odds are good things will go OK.

If you need to apply for a PR Travel Document, it is more difficult to forecast how things will go.

My guess is that you were IN Canada for more than 4 days between May 10, 2016 and the corresponding date in 2016 for the date in 2021 you make an application for a PR TD, and thus will be in BREACH of the PR Residency Obligation. Explained in detail below. Thus I disagree with the conclusion expressed by @bellaluna, that "Yours is not an H&C case."

It may be an easy, perhaps very easy H&C case, given the Covid-19 situation and how small the breach is. BUT that depends on the particular details in your situation. Again, explained in detail below.




CAUTION: Any days you were in Canada between May 10 2016 and today, June 16, 2021, NO LONGER COUNT toward meeting the PR Residency Obligation. I am guessing that you were in Canada for 4 or more days soon after landing, and if so, based on the total of 733 days since May 10, 2016, it appears YOU are NOW in BREACH of the RO.

In breach but not by much. Not by much at all. Which suggests a very good probability that there will be NO problem IF, IF you arrive in Canada within . . . well, there's the hard part, guessing (and it is indeed guessing more than estimating) what the window is.

And as each day goes by, for days in Canada in the summer of 2016, the corresponding date in 2016 will no longer count. Only days in Canada within the last five years count (since you have passed the fifth year anniversary of landing). So the extent of the breach will depend on the extent to which your days in Canada include days here in the summer of 2016 versus the date you actually next arrive. Or the date you apply for a PR TD.

If you make the trip while your PR card is still valid, that should be OK, within a relatively safe window for leniency, especially given the Covid-19 situation. No guarantee however. And various factors can influence how it actually goes. For example, just one example among many, is how long ago was the last time you were in Canada on the date you arrive, and whether that has been three years (returning to Canada after a three year absence requires no calculating of days in Canada, since that on its face establishes a breach of the RO -- it is impossible to have been in Canada for 730 days within the last five years if the PR has been outside Canada for more than 1095 days since last in Canada).

That example looms larger if you let the PR card expire before coming to Canada and you need to apply for a PR Travel Document. Applying for a PR TD FOR-SURE triggers a RO compliance examination. Remember, a PR outside Canada who does not have a valid PR card is presumed to NOT have valid PR status (an easily overcome presumption for a PR who can show compliance with the RO).

Not sure why you proceeded contrary to the instructions for PR card applications (which explicitly say the application must be made IN Canada). Not sure, either, to what extent the failure to follow the instructions might hurt how officials perceive your case. Obviously, almost always better to be on the doing-things-right side.

There is an outside, narrow chance, a PR card will be approved, issued, and mailed to the Canadian address you provided, and someone there can forward it to you. That will NOT necessarily mean you will be OK when you use it to return to Canada. Validity dates of PR card are NOT relevant when calculating compliance with the RO. For example, if you do get a new PR card while still abroad (seems rather unlikely, but it could happen), and say you finally make the trip to Canada August 23, 2021. When you arrive at the Port-of-Entry then, August 23, 2021, if you are questioned about RO compliance the relevant five year period of time will be August 23, 2016 to August 22, 2021, and if you have been outside Canada for more than 1096 days during that period, you could be issued a 44(1) Report and Removal Order. Whether that will happen depends on many factors. Here again, how long ago you were last IN Canada can be one of the more significant factors.

All of which is NOT intended to be discouraging. So far it appears you are within a range in which CBSA and IRCC are being lenient, especially for the time being given the Covid-19 situation. But once you pass the in-breach-threshold (which you have if you spent more than four days in Canada soon after landing), the dynamics shift and how it goes can depend quite a bit on whether you are a person perceived to be deserving of keeping PR status despite having failed to comply with the RO.
Thanks for such a comprehensive response, that really covers almost everything, you really have unearthed so much which I was looking all around. And, I still need some clarifications on few points you have made above which is a bit complicated for me to understand.

1) "Any days you were in Canada between May 10 2016 and today, June 16, 2021, NO LONGER COUNT toward meeting the PR Residency Obligation. I am guessing that you were in Canada for 4 or more days soon after landing, and if so, based on the total of 733 days since May 10, 2016, it appears YOU are NOW in BREACH of the RO. "..... I still couldn't understand the 4 days logic here, Of course, I was there in Canada for 4 days and beyond that, so why it wont be counted in 733 days when the RO day starts from the landing date i.e 5/10/2016 and after 5 years i.e till 5/9/2021 it's 733 days, assuming the expiry date is counted from the time the PR counted is issued. (this is what I know so far in calculation the RO days)

2) "That example looms larger if you let the PR card expire before coming to Canada and you need to apply for a PR Travel Document. Applying for a PR TD FOR-SURE triggers a RO compliance examination. Remember, a PR outside Canada who does not have a valid PR card is presumed to NOT have valid PR status (an easily overcome presumption for a PR who can show compliance with the RO)"....I totally agree that this would certainly trigger a RO compliance examination, on the occasion of the breach of contract, But under such a Global emergency, Canada is restricting and encouraging to postpone all the NON-ESSENTIAL travels even if you are a Canadian Citizen or Permamaner Resident as its a risk to lives and a matter of National Safety. So ideally IRCC, when they are dealing with such cases, would probaby take into account all such aspects while examining the RO compliance. I am really not how the cases are defined for Non-obligatees in this situation.

I know I am digging into such things a lot just to make sure I understand it compltely and take actions accordingy. Thanks a lot once again brother.
 

scylla

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1) "Any days you were in Canada between May 10 2016 and today, June 16, 2021, NO LONGER COUNT toward meeting the PR Residency Obligation. I am guessing that you were in Canada for 4 or more days soon after landing, and if so, based on the total of 733 days since May 10, 2016, it appears YOU are NOW in BREACH of the RO. "..... I still couldn't understand the 4 days logic here, Of course, I was there in Canada for 4 days and beyond that, so why it wont be counted in 733 days when the RO day starts from the landing date i.e 5/10/2016 and after 5 years i.e till 5/9/2021 it's 733 days, assuming the expiry date is counted from the time the PR counted is issued. (this is what I know so far in calculation the RO days)
I think there's a typo here. This should read:

Any days you were in Canada between May 10 2016 and today, June 16, 2016, NO LONGER COUNT
 

Kalandar

Full Member
Aug 21, 2014
48
5
I think there's a typo here. This should read:

Any days you were in Canada between May 10 2016 and today, June 16, 2016, NO LONGER COUNT
Do you have any inputs regarding this.

"That example looms larger if you let the PR card expire before coming to Canada and you need to apply for a PR Travel Document. Applying for a PR TD FOR-SURE triggers a RO compliance examination. Remember, a PR outside Canada who does not have a valid PR card is presumed to NOT have valid PR status (an easily overcome presumption for a PR who can show compliance with the RO)"....I totally agree that this would certainly trigger a RO compliance examination, on the occasion of the breach of contract, But under such a Global emergency, Canada is restricting and encouraging to postpone all the NON-ESSENTIAL travels even if you are a Canadian Citizen or Permamaner Resident as its a risk to lives and a matter of National Safety. So ideally IRCC, when they are dealing with such cases, would probably take into account all such aspects while examining the RO compliance. I am really not how the cases are defined for Non-obligatees in this situation.
 

scylla

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VISA ISSUED...
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LANDED..........
05-10-2010
Do you have any inputs regarding this.

"That example looms larger if you let the PR card expire before coming to Canada and you need to apply for a PR Travel Document. Applying for a PR TD FOR-SURE triggers a RO compliance examination. Remember, a PR outside Canada who does not have a valid PR card is presumed to NOT have valid PR status (an easily overcome presumption for a PR who can show compliance with the RO)"....I totally agree that this would certainly trigger a RO compliance examination, on the occasion of the breach of contract, But under such a Global emergency, Canada is restricting and encouraging to postpone all the NON-ESSENTIAL travels even if you are a Canadian Citizen or Permamaner Resident as its a risk to lives and a matter of National Safety. So ideally IRCC, when they are dealing with such cases, would probably take into account all such aspects while examining the RO compliance. I am really not how the cases are defined for Non-obligatees in this situation.
I disagree with your statement in black.

If you're applying for a PRTD, then you want to make sure you meet the residency obligation.

Don't assume that IRCC will give you a break on this due to the pandemic. There have been no official announcements that exceptions are being granted due to COVID.
 
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Kalandar

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Aug 21, 2014
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I disagree with your statement in black.

If you're applying for a PRTD, then you want to make sure you meet the residency obligation.

Don't assume that IRCC will give you a break on this due to the pandemic. There have been no official announcements that exceptions are being granted due to COVID.
Thanks for the clarification. Does the H&C apply here, I mean there have been crises and disasters hampering people's life to a large extent that's why Canada itself has imposed strict travel restrictions which really has made travelling risky and difficult.
 
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scylla

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Passport Req..
01-10-2010
VISA ISSUED...
05-10-2010
LANDED..........
05-10-2010
Thanks for the clarification. Does the H&C apply here, I mean isn't this a clear case where there have been crises and disasters hampering people's life to a large extent.
You mean H&C due to the pandemic? If so, then no, I wouldn't assume that H&C applies. IRCC has made no official statements regarding this so best to assume normal rules apply. PRs have been free to travel to Canada for most of the pandemic.
 

dpenabill

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Apr 2, 2010
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I still couldn't understand the 4 days logic here, Of course, I was there in Canada for 4 days and beyond that, so why it wont be counted in 733 days when the RO day starts from the landing date i.e 5/10/2016 and after 5 years i.e till 5/9/2021 it's 733 days, assuming the expiry date is counted from the time the PR counted is issued. (this is what I know so far in calculation the RO days)
As @scylla noted there was a typo. Moreover, that was altogether very clumsy wording on my part.

Since you have passed the fifth year anniversary of the date of landing, the main thing is that when calculating compliance with the PR Residency Obligation ONLY days in Canada within the previous five years count. Each new day is a new calculation, based on the new five year period. So what matters is WHAT DATE the calculation is based on. Typical dates for calculating compliance are:
-- date of arrival at a Port-of-Entry​
-- date a PR Travel Document is made​
-- date a PR card application is made, noting, however, the RO calculation can also be made at a later date, such as the date of an interview​

The date of landing is only relevant when calculating RO compliance up to the fifth year anniversary of the date of landing; a new PR has the full first five years in which to meet the obligation by spending at least 730 days in Canada during that five year period. (Again, this does not apply to you, since you have been a PR for more than five years.)

So yes, sure, if as of May 9, 2021, you had been IN Canada for 733 days since you landed (May 10, 2016), as of May 9, 2021 you were still in compliance with the RO. But the days you were here, in Canada, in May and June of 2016, are falling out of the five years that count. Since you are not here adding days, this means the number of days credit you have is decreasing, losing one day's credit for each corresponding day you were here five years ago.

Similarly, the dates on your PR card are NOT relevant when calculating RO compliance. This includes any new PR card you might get. (Date the PR card expires may influence whether a border official waives the PR through without a referral to Secondary and questions about RO compliance; but if and when the PR's compliance with the RO is being questioned, the date the PR card expires is NOT relevant.)

So for you, sorry for the repetition, your RO compliance is based on days IN Canada within the previous five years as of the day the calculation is done.

So, as of today, June 17, 2021, the relevant five years are June 17, 2016 to June 17, 2021.

So, if you arrive at a Port-of-Entry into Canada on July 3, 2021, the relevant five years are July 3, 2016 to July 2, 2021 (thus, days in Canada prior to July 3, 2016 will NOT count toward compliance with the RO).

So, if you apply for a PR Travel Document July 19, 2021, the relevant five years are July 19, 2016 to July 18, 2021 (thus, days in Canada prior to July 19, 2016 will NOT count toward compliance with the RO).

. . . But under such a Global emergency, Canada is restricting and encouraging to postpone all the NON-ESSENTIAL travels even if you are a Canadian Citizen or Permamaner Resident as its a risk to lives and a matter of National Safety. So ideally IRCC, when they are dealing with such cases, would probably take into account all such aspects while examining the RO compliance. I am really not how the cases are defined for Non-obligatees in this situation.
This goes back to the response from @bellaluna, stating that "Yours is not an H&C case." That would have been true back before you started losing credit for days in Canada in May 2016. You were in compliance with the RO then. But since you have remained outside Canada and are now losing credit for days here in 2016 as they pass the five-years-ago date, you are no longer in compliance with the RO.

Calculating RO compliance is simple. It is arithmetic, the calendar, and the geographical location of the PR. That is all that is taken into account (well, there are some exceptions, like accompanying a Canadian citizen spouse abroad, none relevant here). Number of days in Canada in the relevant five years. That's it.

That is prescribed by statute. IRCC has no authority to change it.

There is a relief valve however. H&C factors will be considered BEFORE a PR in breach of the RO is issued a decision terminating the PR's status.

Yes, the global pandemic is almost certainly being considered as a relevant H&C factor (but how much weight that carries will be very specific to the individual situation). But this does not affect the calculation of compliance with the RO itself. H&C factors only enter into things WHEN the PR is in BREACH of the RO. H&C factors may support a decision allowing the PR to keep status DESPITE failing to comply with the RO.

You are in breach. So yes, technically you have a H&C case. And if you apply for a PR TD, that will be the key factor determining whether a PR TD is approved and issued, or denied (a decision which terminates PR status, but which is subject to appeal). And yes, the impact of the global pandemic will almost certainly be a significant consideration in assessing the H&C factors in your case.

I added the word "technically" above because, for example, if you are able to travel to Canada before your PR card expires (does not look likely but if you could), or you were able to travel to Canada via the U.S. and enter at a land border crossing, given the overall situation (Covid et al) and how close you are to being in compliance, there is a fair to good chance the border officials would not even engage in a formal RO compliance examination, but just waive you into Canada, no formal decision on whether H&C reasons justify allowing you to retain PR status despite the breach of RO.

But a formal application for a PR TD requires the Visa Office to determine whether the PR is in compliance with the RO. You are not. So the H&C factors will quite likely determine whether you are issued a PR TD or not.

That's where it gets particularly tricky. I am not clear what @scylla means by "You mean H&C due to the pandemic? If so, then no, I wouldn't assume that H&C applies." If @scylla means a PR should not assume that the pandemic will be a sufficient H&C reason to overcome the RO breach, I agree. But I am highly confident, virtually certain, that the pandemic not only can be and will be, but must be considered in weighing the PR's reasons for remaining outside Canada as a H&C factor. How much weight it carries will vary from individual to individual depending on the individual's personal situation, including other reasons for being outside Canada and remaining outside Canada. Moreover, H&C factors are not considered standing alone but are weighed in context with all the other circumstances in the individual case.

Thus, that is why I previously mentioned that how long it has been since you were last in Canada is a significant factor. Other factors include your ties in Canada versus your ties outside Canada. There are many topics here where H&C factors are discussed in depth. Reasons for being outside Canada before the pandemic are a factor. Your credibility is a factor.

As I concluded my previous post: . . . once you pass the in-breach-threshold . . . the dynamics shift and how it goes can depend quite a bit on whether you are a person perceived to be deserving of keeping PR status despite having failed to comply with the RO.
 
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