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may be repeated q but need yr opinions

hambousha

Hero Member
Jan 9, 2015
568
103
One more thing guys please ,
Usually appeals are accepted ? Or probably they revoke PRs do not meet residency obligations?
Lets say some one soft landed for a week then left for four years (outside Canada) then rentered Canada in his last year , stayed for two continous years and applied for renewal after passing the second year
Would they approve it ?
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,268
3,028
One more thing guys please ,
Usually appeals are accepted ? Or probably they revoke PRs do not meet residency obligations?
Lets say some one soft landed for a week then left for four years (outside Canada) then rentered Canada in his last year , stayed for two continous years and applied for renewal after passing the second year
Would they approve it ?
You appear to be asking about two very different scenarios. Appeal versus application for new PR card after staying for two years after NOT staying enough before that.

The latter appears to be about the prospect of keeping PR status after a breach of the PR Residency Obligation, by staying two years and then applying for a new PR card. This works, it really works, but it only works if the PR was NOT reported or denied a PR TD. That is, a previous breach of the PR RO does not matter UNLESS the PR was reported for it. If not reported, all the PR has to do is stay two years and the breach is cured. Not a problem.

But if the PR has a PR Travel Document application denied, or has been issued a 44(1) Report and Departure (Removal) Order, to keep PR status the PR MUST appeal and WIN the appeal. Staying after being reported does NOT cure the breach.


If your question really is about what the prospects are for an APPEAL:

An "APPEAL" in the context of PR obligations is about an appeal from a decision to terminate PR status, such as:
-- appeal of a denied application for PR Travel Document
-- appeal of a PoE issued 44(1) Report and Departure (or Removal) Order for inadmissibility based on breach of PR Residency Obligation
-- appeal of other Report constituting a decision the PR is inadmissible (such as following a PR Residency Determination attendant an interview in a local office)​

I do not know statistically how many appeal are won versus lost. I do know, however, that whatever the percentages, it is NOT ABOUT the ODDS. It is about the specific facts in the individual case. Even if three out of four win their appeal, the actual chance of success for a particular individual depends on the particular facts and circumstances in his or her case, and for some situations even if overall three out of four win their appeal, that individual's chances may be one-in-fifty . . . or nine-in-ten. Because what matters are the facts in that person's case. It is not like placing a bet at the roulette wheel.

That is, someone who was only a little short of meeting the PR RO and who has strong H&C reasons in his favour, probably has good odds of winning the appeal. In contrast, the PR who was in Canada less than a year in the last five, and whose reasons for not coming to Canada sooner were largely personal choices, probably has very low chances (again, even if otherwise three out of four usually win).

It can be said that staying in Canada while an appeal is pending can help. But what this factor is really about is minimizing negative factors related to less ties in Canada . . . by staying in Canada while the appeal is pending, the PR shows more ties in Canada and more indication of now settling and staying in Canada.

ULTIMATELY NO ONE CAN SUGGEST WHAT THE ODDS ARE IN THE ABSTRACT. They will vary. How many days short of meeting the PR RO is a huge factor. How well settled now in Canada is a significant factor. And so on . . . there being many factors discussed at length in numerous topics here.

Again, I do not know the statistics. Strength of case is what matters. The fact that a decision maker has already made a negative decision kind of tells the tale unless, for some reason, the initial decision maker did not have access to important information. The latter is why it can be so important to have legal help in the appeal: a lawyer can help the PR identify what things in his or her life need to be brought to the attention of the IAD panel hearing the appeal.
 
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hambousha

Hero Member
Jan 9, 2015
568
103
Thanks a lot
So what I understood ,
If somebody landed and immediately left
Stayed out of Canada for four years then re-entered Canada in his last year of PR;
One of two scenarios would happen;
1- Not reported; then he can stay 2 years continously and renew his PR
2- Reported; and in this case he will need to appeal to face this report and
Is that correct?
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,268
3,028
As noted elsewhere:

That is the basics, correct.

BUT it is just the PR card which expires; "last year of PR" makes no sense, because there is NO "last year."
 

fateh88

Full Member
Sep 2, 2013
40
1
You appear to be asking about two very different scenarios. Appeal versus application for new PR card after staying for two years after NOT staying enough before that.

The latter appears to be about the prospect of keeping PR status after a breach of the PR Residency Obligation, by staying two years and then applying for a new PR card. This works, it really works, but it only works if the PR was NOT reported or denied a PR TD. That is, a previous breach of the PR RO does not matter UNLESS the PR was reported for it. If not reported, all the PR has to do is stay two years and the breach is cured. Not a problem.

But if the PR has a PR Travel Document application denied, or has been issued a 44(1) Report and Departure (Removal) Order, to keep PR status the PR MUST appeal and WIN the appeal. Staying after being reported does NOT cure the breach.


If your question really is about what the prospects are for an APPEAL:

An "APPEAL" in the context of PR obligations is about an appeal from a decision to terminate PR status, such as:
-- appeal of a denied application for PR Travel Document
-- appeal of a PoE issued 44(1) Report and Departure (or Removal) Order for inadmissibility based on breach of PR Residency Obligation
-- appeal of other Report constituting a decision the PR is inadmissible (such as following a PR Residency Determination attendant an interview in a local office)​

I do not know statistically how many appeal are won versus lost. I do know, however, that whatever the percentages, it is NOT ABOUT the ODDS. It is about the specific facts in the individual case. Even if three out of four win their appeal, the actual chance of success for a particular individual depends on the particular facts and circumstances in his or her case, and for some situations even if overall three out of four win their appeal, that individual's chances may be one-in-fifty . . . or nine-in-ten. Because what matters are the facts in that person's case. It is not like placing a bet at the roulette wheel.

That is, someone who was only a little short of meeting the PR RO and who has strong H&C reasons in his favour, probably has good odds of winning the appeal. In contrast, the PR who was in Canada less than a year in the last five, and whose reasons for not coming to Canada sooner were largely personal choices, probably has very low chances (again, even if otherwise three out of four usually win).

It can be said that staying in Canada while an appeal is pending can help. But what this factor is really about is minimizing negative factors related to less ties in Canada . . . by staying in Canada while the appeal is pending, the PR shows more ties in Canada and more indication of now settling and staying in Canada.

ULTIMATELY NO ONE CAN SUGGEST WHAT THE ODDS ARE IN THE ABSTRACT. They will vary. How many days short of meeting the PR RO is a huge factor. How well settled now in Canada is a significant factor. And so on . . . there being many factors discussed at length in numerous topics here.

Again, I do not know the statistics. Strength of case is what matters. The fact that a decision maker has already made a negative decision kind of tells the tale unless, for some reason, the initial decision maker did not have access to important information. The latter is why it can be so important to have legal help in the appeal: a lawyer can help the PR identify what things in his or her life need to be brought to the attention of the IAD panel hearing the appeal.
Thanks for the detailed information, you seems to have detailed knowledge about it. Please help me and answer my query will be great of you.

I do not meet RO and flying next week to see if i get an entry or get notice 44.
My two questions are
Firstly,
Say if i get an entry without getting notice 44 will i be able to sponsor my wife or call her on visitor visa?

Secondly,
Say if i get notice 44 and appeal for a fight, how long is the average processing time for the appeal to be processed or to know that my appeal will be heard or not.
Please reply
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,268
3,028
Thanks for the detailed information, you seems to have detailed knowledge about it. Please help me and answer my query will be great of you.

I do not meet RO and flying next week to see if i get an entry or get notice 44.
My two questions are
Firstly,
Say if i get an entry without getting notice 44 will i be able to sponsor my wife or call her on visitor visa?

Secondly,
Say if i get notice 44 and appeal for a fight, how long is the average processing time for the appeal to be processed or to know that my appeal will be heard or not.
Please reply
To be clear: I AM NOT AN EXPERT, NOT BY A LONG SHOT.

It is one thing to follow certain issues and be aware of particular aspects of this and that process, to have done some homework and know the rules. Applying this information in a particular person's case is something ENTIRELY DIFFERENT.

Note, for example, I am NOT familiar with the procedures involved in applications for visitor visas when the prospective visitor has family in Canada, so I do not know, not at all, how your situation would factor into the prospect of a FN spouse obtaining a visitor visa.

One of the reasons my posts tend to go long is that I identify and elaborate the prospect of multiple possible procedures and outcomes, tending to emphasize the vagaries and variables.

And, very, very often, what can happen often varies widely from what will LIKELY happen.

In more than a few respects my observations tend to focus on what we do not know, and in particular emphasizing that observations purporting to state what will happen are, well, less than reliable.

And then there are (almost always) individual factors which loom large.

So, first question, after arriving at a Canadian PoE, assume you are allowed to enter without being issued a 44(1) Report, you ask: "Say if i get an entry without getting notice 44 will i be able to sponsor my wife or call her on visitor visa?" Again, I know nothing about the prospect of a visitor visa in this scenario.

As for sponsoring your spouse for PR, there are a lot of other qualifying elements you will need to meet for the answer to this to be "yes."

Which is to say, "yes," IF and WHEN you meet the eligibility requirements. "WHEN" looms large. Not until your own PR status is good. As long as you are not in compliance with the PR Residency Obligation, you are subject to a determination of inadmissibility, inadmissible for being in breach of the PR RO. To sponsor a family member, the sponsor must establish his or her eligibility to sponsor. An inadmissible PR is not eligible to sponsor.

Will an application to sponsor a spouse by a PR who is living in Canada and who has not been reported for inadmissibility trigger inquiry into the PR's compliance with the PR RO? That wanders into the maybe or maybe not range, into I do not know territory, because it could go either way.

To be clear, the sponsorship application for sure can trigger an inquiry into the sponsor's compliance with the PR RO. Reports indicate it has. Lots of depends factor are probably in play. If the PR is just a month shy of meeting the PR RO, fair chance there will not be a problem. But other circumstances can potentially loom and affect how it goes. Conventional wisdom clearly favours WAITING until being in full PR RO compliance BEFORE making an application to sponsor.


Then there is your second question: "Say if i get notice 44 and appeal for a fight, how long is the average processing time for the appeal to be processed or to know that my appeal will be heard or not."

Not sure about the "for a fight" angle, since an appeal is just that, a formal procedure asking that the decision by the Minister's Delegate (usually just another officer at the PoE seconding the first officer's Report) be reconsidered by the IAD (Immigration Appeal Division), which a PR has a full right to do. This review is in effect a hearing de novo, meaning that the IAD will review the evidence (including any additional evidence) and make its own decision. No real fight. Just submission of the facts and an individual, referred to as the IAD Panel, will decide what the facts are (if there are conflicting versions of the facts) and whether, one, the Report was valid in law (was the PR short of meeting the PR RO at the time the report was issued), and if the answer to that is yes, then the IAD Panel will determine if there are H&C reasons for allowing the PR to retain status despite the breach.

While there may be some adversarial elements involved, typically better to approach this process as an opportunity to persuade the IAD, based on equities as well the particular merits, AND NOT as an adversarial contest, or "fight." Most PRs in this situation will benefit from the assistance of a lawyer in this process.

As for appeal timelines, there is no reliable source of information about this. Averages are irrelevant. In these appeals, even the median timeline is not particularly informative because it appears that the lengthy timelines seen in the recent past are not so common now. Thus, while there are many cases in which the appeal has taken well over a year, and in many cases two years or even more, there are also a number of more recent cases in which it appears the IAD hearing was held within six months or otherwise in well less than a year.

Settling and staying in Canada while the appeal is pending can help improve the odds of making a successful H&C case, but this falls way short of being a sure thing. How much in breach is a huge factor. Why the delay in coming to Canada is huge. If there was a small breach with somewhat persuasive reasons explaining the delay (even if not the sort of reason typically thought of as supporting an H&C case, such as economically difficult to make the move sooner), settling and staying pending appeal can tip the scales in a favourable direction.

The appeal will "be heard." A PR has the right of appeal. To the IAD. This is an administrative appeal, quasi-judicial. The PR will have an opportunity to submit additional evidence to the IAD. I am not familiar with how the hearings are in fact conducted, but I believe the PR is usually entitled to attend the hearing in person and to make representations to the Panel in person.

Some IAD hearings allow the PR to participate by telephone. Other than the obvious situation, where the PR is abroad, I am not sure when or why the PR might participate through a telephone appearance rather than in person . . . again, almost all PRs in this situation would benefit from the assistance of counsel in navigating the appeal.

But in any event, the IAD will hear the case. It will accept evidence and representations and reasons (one might say "argument" but again the better approach is more about being persuasive than being argumentative). The IAD will weigh the evidence and consider the reasons, including any and all H&C reasons, and render a decision, and that decision will be either to allow the PR to retain PR status or upholding the report (denying the appeal) and thereby terminating the PR's status.

Whether a negative IAD decision can be further reviewed by the Federal Court, that is, whether a further appeal would "be heard" by a Federal Court, that requires an application for leave which can be (and it is my impression usually is) denied unless there is a rather clear ground for such further review.

If the IAD denies the appeal, that means PR status is adjudicated and the individual is no longer a PR.

A PR cannot sponsor a family member while the appeal is pending.
 
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fateh88

Full Member
Sep 2, 2013
40
1
To be clear: I AM NOT AN EXPERT, NOT BY A LONG SHOT.

It is one thing to follow certain issues and be aware of particular aspects of this and that process, to have done some homework and know the rules. Applying this information in a particular person's case is something ENTIRELY DIFFERENT.

Note, for example, I am NOT familiar with the procedures involved in applications for visitor visas when the prospective visitor has family in Canada, so I do not know, not at all, how your situation would factor into the prospect of a FN spouse obtaining a visitor visa.

One of the reasons my posts tend to go long is that I identify and elaborate the prospect of multiple possible procedures and outcomes, tending to emphasize the vagaries and variables.

And, very, very often, what can happen often varies widely from what will LIKELY happen.

In more than a few respects my observations tend to focus on what we do not know, and in particular emphasizing that observations purporting to state what will happen are, well, less than reliable.

And then there are (almost always) individual factors which loom large.

So, first question, after arriving at a Canadian PoE, assume you are allowed to enter without being issued a 44(1) Report, you ask: "Say if i get an entry without getting notice 44 will i be able to sponsor my wife or call her on visitor visa?" Again, I know nothing about the prospect of a visitor visa in this scenario.

As for sponsoring your spouse for PR, there are a lot of other qualifying elements you will need to meet for the answer to this to be "yes."

Which is to say, "yes," IF and WHEN you meet the eligibility requirements. "WHEN" looms large. Not until your own PR status is good. As long as you are not in compliance with the PR Residency Obligation, you are subject to a determination of inadmissibility, inadmissible for being in breach of the PR RO. To sponsor a family member, the sponsor must establish his or her eligibility to sponsor. An inadmissible PR is not eligible to sponsor.

Will an application to sponsor a spouse by a PR who is living in Canada and who has not been reported for inadmissibility trigger inquiry into the PR's compliance with the PR RO? That wanders into the maybe or maybe not range, into I do not know territory, because it could go either way.

To be clear, the sponsorship application for sure can trigger an inquiry into the sponsor's compliance with the PR RO. Reports indicate it has. Lots of depends factor are probably in play. If the PR is just a month shy of meeting the PR RO, fair chance there will not be a problem. But other circumstances can potentially loom and affect how it goes. Conventional wisdom clearly favours WAITING until being in full PR RO compliance BEFORE making an application to sponsor.


Then there is your second question: "Say if i get notice 44 and appeal for a fight, how long is the average processing time for the appeal to be processed or to know that my appeal will be heard or not."

Not sure about the "for a fight" angle, since an appeal is just that, a formal procedure asking that the decision by the Minister's Delegate (usually just another officer at the PoE seconding the first officer's Report) be reconsidered by the IAD (Immigration Appeal Division), which a PR has a full right to do. This review is in effect a hearing de novo, meaning that the IAD will review the evidence (including any additional evidence) and make its own decision. No real fight. Just submission of the facts and an individual, referred to as the IAD Panel, will decide what the facts are (if there are conflicting versions of the facts) and whether, one, the Report was valid in law (was the PR short of meeting the PR RO at the time the report was issued), and if the answer to that is yes, then the IAD Panel will determine if there are H&C reasons for allowing the PR to retain status despite the breach.

While there may be some adversarial elements involved, typically better to approach this process as an opportunity to persuade the IAD, based on equities as well the particular merits, AND NOT as an adversarial contest, or "fight." Most PRs in this situation will benefit from the assistance of a lawyer in this process.

As for appeal timelines, there is no reliable source of information about this. Averages are irrelevant. In these appeals, even the median timeline is not particularly informative because it appears that the lengthy timelines seen in the recent past are not so common now. Thus, while there are many cases in which the appeal has taken well over a year, and in many cases two years or even more, there are also a number of more recent cases in which it appears the IAD hearing was held within six months or otherwise in well less than a year.

Settling and staying in Canada while the appeal is pending can help improve the odds of making a successful H&C case, but this falls way short of being a sure thing. How much in breach is a huge factor. Why the delay in coming to Canada is huge. If there was a small breach with somewhat persuasive reasons explaining the delay (even if not the sort of reason typically thought of as supporting an H&C case, such as economically difficult to make the move sooner), settling and staying pending appeal can tip the scales in a favourable direction.

The appeal will "be heard." A PR has the right of appeal. To the IAD. This is an administrative appeal, quasi-judicial. The PR will have an opportunity to submit additional evidence to the IAD. I am not familiar with how the hearings are in fact conducted, but I believe the PR is usually entitled to attend the hearing in person and to make representations to the Panel in person.

Some IAD hearings allow the PR to participate by telephone. Other than the obvious situation, where the PR is abroad, I am not sure when or why the PR might participate through a telephone appearance rather than in person . . . again, almost all PRs in this situation would benefit from the assistance of counsel in navigating the appeal.

But in any event, the IAD will hear the case. It will accept evidence and representations and reasons (one might say "argument" but again the better approach is more about being persuasive than being argumentative). The IAD will weigh the evidence and consider the reasons, including any and all H&C reasons, and render a decision, and that decision will be either to allow the PR to retain PR status or upholding the report (denying the appeal) and thereby terminating the PR's status.

Whether a negative IAD decision can be further reviewed by the Federal Court, that is, whether a further appeal would "be heard" by a Federal Court, that requires an application for leave which can be (and it is my impression usually is) denied unless there is a rather clear ground for such further review.

If the IAD denies the appeal, that means PR status is adjudicated and the individual is no longer a PR.

A PR cannot sponsor a family member while the appeal is pending.
Thank you for the detail information and your valuable time.
 

fateh88

Full Member
Sep 2, 2013
40
1
I have another question,
If i get an entry without notice 44 and dont meet RO am i still eligible to work on SIN and use health services
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,268
3,028
I have another question,
If i get an entry without notice 44 and dont meet RO am i still eligible to work on SIN and use health services
A PR retains PR status until it is formally, finally terminated. So yes, you can work and you if you otherwise qualify for provincial benefits, like health care, those MAY be available.

The fact that a PR has breached the PR RO does not have any effect on the PR's status UNLESS and UNTIL formal action is taken. AND even then, even after being issued a 44(1) Report and a Departure Order, if the PR appeals the PR continues to have PR status while the appeal is pending.

There can be some wrinkles. As long as you have your SIN card, you can show that and that reflects you may legally work in Canada. There are some reports that some employers want to see proof of PR status, for which you would need a PR card. But legally you are entitled to work.

Provincial benefits are governed by rules adopted by the respective province, and they do vary some. Proof of status to reside in Canada is typically required to obtain health care services. What suffices for this can vary from one province to another. Last I knew (not all that recent and such things are subject to change), Ontario would accept an expired PR card so long as it expired within . . . I forget how much time, within how many years, it allowed (and I do not know what it currently allows). But each province has its own rules.
 
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YVR123

VIP Member
Jul 27, 2017
6,540
2,499
Healthcare is different from province to province, as dpenabill said.
From reading here, I think BC MSP only takes valid PR card to enroll you into the system.
 

fateh88

Full Member
Sep 2, 2013
40
1
Healthcare is different from province to province, as dpenabill said.
From reading here, I think BC MSP only takes valid PR card to enroll you into the system.
How about ontario?
Am i eligible for ontario health services. Without meeting RO
 

keesio

VIP Member
May 16, 2012
4,795
396
Toronto, Ontario
Category........
Visa Office......
CPP-O
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
09-01-2013
Doc's Request.
09-07-2013
AOR Received.
30-01-2013
File Transfer...
11-02-2013
Med's Done....
02-01-2013
Interview........
waived
Passport Req..
12-07-2013
VISA ISSUED...
15-08-2013
LANDED..........
14-10-2013
How about ontario?
Am i eligible for ontario health services. Without meeting RO
You would need to meet the OHIP requirement of 153 days in Ontario out of a 12 month period. If you are establishing residence in Ontario, there is a 3 month wait after you arrive before your eligibility kicks in. Once it does, you need to remain in Ontario for 153 out of the next 183 days.