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Is this true - You can apply for citizenship with less than 1095 days physical

kingadil

Full Member
Mar 7, 2012
32
2
screech339 said:
I didn't provided any information. I am responding to your post.
i don't mean you i am just showing you what i got from the citizenship calculator as it says

""According to the information you provided, you meet the basic residence requirement but you have not been physically present in Canada for at least 1,095 days (three years) in the four years (1,460 days) preceding the date of your application.According to the information you provided and assuming nothing else changes, you will accumulate 1,095 days of physical presence on 2015-07-17.""
 

screech339

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kingadil said:
i don't mean you i am just showing you what i got from the citizenship calculator as it says

""According to the information you provided, you meet the basic residence requirement but you have not been physically present in Canada for at least 1,095 days (three years) in the four years (1,460 days) preceding the date of your application.According to the information you provided and assuming nothing else changes, you will accumulate 1,095 days of physical presence on 2015-07-17.""
Sorry for the misunderstanding. Now it's much clearer.

Anyway, so you won't accumulate 1095 until june 17 way past the june 11 new rule deadline.

But note at bottom, that it says you can apply short of 1095 but you will need to see a citizenship judge to determine whether you are granted path to citizenship or not. You will have to convince the judge why you couldn't wait 1095 days to get citizenship.

With the timing of you submitting application before june 11th and being far short of 1095 days, the judge will be wise enough to know that you only submitted the application to avoid the deadline. The judge will not likely be convinced and you will likely be denied citizenship after a long lengthy process.

Are you willing to gamble on that? It is your choice and if you do decide to apply, good luck and be prepared for the consequences of your decision.
 

MUFC

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Jul 14, 2014
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screech339 said:
So you won't accumulate 1095 until june 17 way past the june 11 new rule deadline.

But note at bottom, that it says you can apply short of 1095 but you will need to see a citizenship judge to determine whether you are granted path to citizenship or not. You will have to convince the judge why you couldn't wait 1095 days to get citizenship.

With the timing of you submitting application before june 11th and being far short of 1095 days, the judge will wise enough to know you only submitted the application to avoid the deadline.
He will be just another non routine applicant with long processing time and 99% denial at the end.
Let him apply, because it is very important for him.
 

kingadil

Full Member
Mar 7, 2012
32
2
screech339 said:
With the timing of you submitting application before june 11th and being far short of 1095 days, the judge will be wise enough to know that you only submitted the application to avoid the deadline. The judge will not likely be convinced and you will likely be denied citizenship after a long lengthy process.
Is it waoo :eek: :eek: :eek: you are right as i thought they wouldn't look into that matter as i thought they would be looking how you are connected to Canada

I prepared a letter that i was willing to send with my application explaining the reason as a community president i want to have more authority to serve the community as a Canadian
 

dpenabill

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Apr 2, 2010
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kingadil said:
According to the information you provided, you meet the basic residence requirement but you have not been physically present in Canada for at least 1,095 days (three years) in the four years (1,460 days) preceding the date of your application.According to the information you provided and assuming nothing else changes, you will accumulate 1,095 days of physical presence on 2015-07-17.
Concur in posts by screech339. That is, that you are eligible but are most likely to be denied for not meeting the residency requirement (eligible but not qualified . . . this distinction disappears for applications submitted after June 11).

We do not really know to what extent shortfall cases (less than 1095 days actual presence) have a chance. The trend for years, however, has been for CIC to push the application of the actual presence test and most CJs are now appointees by this government, the one pushing for the actual presence test. And most indicators suggest that is indeed what most CJs are doing.

Best to wait and apply when qualified pursuant to revised requirements.
 

screech339

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kingadil said:
Is it waoo :eek: :eek: :eek: you are right as i thought they wouldn't look into that matter as i thought they would be looking how you are connected to Canada

I prepared a letter that i was willing to send with my application explaining the reason as a community president i want to have more authority to serve the community as a Canadian
An applicant can say a similar reason. "I want to join the Canadian Forces" as an excuse to get citizenship before qualification and don't want to wait another year to join the force. If, granted citizenship, on that excuse, the applicant doesn't have to join the forces after all.

Don't you see the flaw of using "I need to be a Canadian" to get "better standing" or "advance my career.
 

MUFC

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kingadil said:
Is it waoo :eek: :eek: :eek: you are right as i thought they wouldn't look into that matter as i thought they would be looking how you are connected to Canada

I prepared a letter that i was willing to send with my application explaining the reason as a community president i want to have more authority to serve the community as a Canadian
You will be privileged to create more attachment in the Canadian community during the years it will take to process your application. You can also share your long journey with the community.

Apply Today if you are desperate to apply. You need that citizenship. It will be a long and epic story.
 

screech339

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2013
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App. Filed.......
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20-11-2012
Med's Done....
18-07-2012
Interview........
17-06-2013
LANDED..........
17-06-2013
kingadil said:
that is completely true
The thing is will the applicant follow through on his/her commitment to join the forces once he/she get citizenship. Not bloody likely.
 

kingadil

Full Member
Mar 7, 2012
32
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Thank you all guys for taking the time in helping others by answering their inquiries

You guys are great and really helped me on my concerns
 

dpenabill

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Apr 2, 2010
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Moreover, persuading a Citizenship Judge to apply a qualitative test, rather than the actual presence test, is still about the four years preceding the date of the application. There is little or no doubt that only extraordinarily exceptional circumstances have much of a chance . . . circumstances in the relevant four years.

It does seem very likely that these last days under the old requirements will see a storm of shortfall applications. There is bound to be widespread disappointment among these applicants, not anytime soon since it will be a long while before their cases will be decided, but the ultimate outcome is very predictable for all but a very small slice. And disappointment is writ large in the effort.

A reminder: just my opinion, but I am quite confident that a shortfall application also involving credit for pre-landing time has virtually no chance. Pre-landing credit is more about credit toward meeting the APP of 1095 days.
 

dpenabill

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Apr 2, 2010
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As of now, no, no more eligible applications can be made based on meeting the basic residency requirement but not the actual physical presence test (1095 days actually present in four years), and indeed from now on there is no distinction between "basic residency" and "residency."

But of course it appears that scores of PRs proceeded to submit a shortfall application the last month or two.

It is easier to be frank about the prospects for shortfall applicants now that there is no risk of indirectly encouraging the submission of a bad, shortfall application (since a shortfall application now will be incomplete on its face and summarily denied).

In any event, a very recent decision illustrates that it is definitely not true, as many have stated, that there is a zero chance of succeeding if the applicant's actual presence is short of 1095 days.





A very recent SUCCESSFUL shortfall application:

See MCI v Patmore case.

THIS is a significant case. This is an example not only of a CJ applying the qualitative test set out in the Re Papadogiorgakis case, finding that the applicant had centralized her mode of living in Canada. This is the first such decision I have seen in a long while now.

The remarkable thing is the extent of the applicant's absences: 1183 days absent in four years; merely 277 days actually physically present.

This is the largest shortfall I have seen in a successful application in many, many years, by a huge margin.

Successful in persuading the Citizenship Judge to give approval. Successful in winning the appeal brought by the Minister of CIC. Soon to be a citizen.

More than 800 days short, and soon to be a citizen.

While this does offer hope for some shortfall applicants, not too much should be read into the decision. This is one of the exceptions.

Key factors: applicant was a minor when she landed as a PR with her parents and her absences were all attendant the continuation of her studies abroad. Her family remained well-settled in Canada. Justice Montigny cited a hefty list of cases in which absences due to pursuing studies "should qualify as residency in Canada . . ." (see paragraph 18 in the decision)

In this regard, to some extent the decisions " piggyback the students' residency on that of their families. So long as there is a strong family nexus and a state of dependency of the student . . ." Obviously this is about a situation where the student's family is well-settled, living in Canada, and the student's "home" is with the family in Canada despite being abroad for study.


Of course this only matters now for applications already submitted.

And, I would note, while there have been some indications that at least a handful of Citizenship Judges appear to be going their own way, still applying a qualitative test despite the government's clear push to apply the strict presence test, overall it still appears that most CJs are almost always applying the strict presence test, so while a case like this shows it is still possible to be approved and granted citizenship despite falling short of the 1095 day requirement (just for applications delivered to CIC by or before today), the odds for most are probably still very poor.
 

dpenabill

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Apr 2, 2010
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Justice Mosley's decision in the Ojo airline pilot shortfall case:

There was an anecdotal report about an airline pilot who spent a great deal of time abroad and had somewhat recently been granted citizenship. If that report was accurate that would not be this case, even though it bears a lot of resemblance to the one reported, since this airline pilot was approved by the Citizenship Judge but CIC appealed, so there was (so far) no grant of citizenship. CIC has won the appeal at least to the extent that the CJ's decision has been set aside and the case has been sent back to CIC to be determined anew.

The significance of these shortfall cases is fading, of course, given that for all new applications (since June 11, 2015) there is no leeway for shortfalls allowed at all in the law. But there are probably hundreds if not thousands of shortfall applications still in process. Indeed, there was probably a rush of shortfall applications just before the change in the law.

In that context, this case is significant in a few respects:

-- some CJs are still willing to apply a qualitative test; that is, some applicants with a shortfall are still being favourably treated by CJs

-- while Justice Mosley hangs the decision on what I would describe as more or less a hyper-technicality, as if reaching for an excuse to rule against the pilot, Justice Mosley also goes out of his way to emphasize that he is in no way suggesting how this case should be decided upon reconsideration

-- and it affirms the admissibility and relevance of an affidavit (in this case from the spouse)

This case involves a huge shortfall, the pilot absent nearly twice as much as present in Canada (590 days short of 1095 in the relevant four years; absent 955 days in the relevant four years; present just 505 days). The reason for the absences was not just employment abroad, but employment for a non-Canadian employer. So this reflects a remarkable exercise of discretion by the Citizenship Judge, willing to even consider let alone approve an applicant who spent well less than half his time in Canada.

For those with a shortfall application in the pipeline, I expect this case to offer a glimmer of hope.



Submission of an affidavit in support of residency:

While I find the other aspects of this decision interesting, the almost in-passing discussion of a tendered affidavit is, to my view, important.

This part of the decision is not dependent on old law versus new law. So this is a discussion relevant to all future applications, particularly applications in which CIC questions residency (technically to be "presence" for new applications going forward) . . . and especially if CIC is challenging the applicant's account of residency or presence.

Justice Mosley did not consider the proffered affidavit. That, however, was explicitly based on when the affidavit was proffered and the rules of procedure governing appeals. The affidavit was not before the CJ, so it could not be considered in the appeal either.

Justice Mosley did, however, explicitly address the admissibility and relevance of the proffered affidavit:

"In this proceeding, the parties debated the admissibility of evidence which Mr Ojo attempted to introduce as exhibits to an affidavit sworn by his spouse. I did not consider any of the evidence which had not been placed before the Citizenship Judge, since the law is settled that a reviewing court must confine itself to the evidentiary record that was before the decision-maker. . . .

. . . now that the decision will be reconsidered, I can see no obstacle to Mr Ojo’s submitting this evidence directly to the Minister or bringing it to an eventual hearing with a Citizenship Judge, should one be convened.


It is not apparent what CIC actually argued in regards to the spouse's affidavit, but it appears to have been more than just the technical restriction regarding what is considered in appellate review . . . since Justice Mosley explicitly commented on the future admissibility of the affidavit.

It is, however, apparent that CIC has long tended to dismiss the significance, if not the relevance, of affidavits submitted on behalf of citizenship applicants . . . except those from professionals or other objective sources (doctors, lawyers, accountants, and so on, submitting statements about contacts/activities with the applicant). Why this has been so is obvious enough: for those willing to engage in fraud, composing affidavits affirming the applicant's declarations is easy.

There is no hint in the Residence Questionnaire (probably will be renamed to be a "Physical Presence Questionnaire" in the future, like the online "Residency Calculator" has already been replaced by an online "Physical Presence Calculator") that in addition to the documents requested that the applicant can or should submit additional evidence including testimonial statements from family or friends or colleagues. Such evidence appears to be inherently suspect in CIC's view, at the least self-serving and deserving minimal weight.

In contrast, however, in almost all other contexts, testimonial evidence, even that from family or friends, is recognized as competent and relevant, and entitled to a presumption of validity unless there is controverting evidence or an explicit reason to doubt the credibility of the source or the evidence itself.

In all the discussions about what to submit in response to RQ, testimonial affidavits, let alone unsworn statements (like letters), are rarely mentioned. And, to be frank, it seems that including letters or affidavits from family or friends is not likely to make the difference in most cases. But, in close cases it could, and in any event it would augment the evidence supporting an appeal if it comes to that.

And, in watching for this particular issue for years, this decision by Justice Mosley is the best statement so far that supports the applicant's right to not only submit affidavits in support of his or application, but to do so at the time of appearing for a hearing with a Citizenship Judge.

Justice Mosley's observation relies specifically on the respective Regulation (section 28), which CIC could all too easily change, but there are also fair procedure requirements which in practice mandate the opportunity to submit evidence at a hearing.

(Note: the use of affidavits or testimonial letters in support of the application is something others and I discussed in depth years ago in the immigration.ca forum; the focus of the discussion then relied extensively on non-citizenship cases, there being only a very small number of references to such evidence in any citizenship case that any of us could find, at least in searching the cases going back to around 2000. This discussion took place in 2010/2011, around the time it became apparent that CIC was more aggressively challenging applicants who declared 1095+ days APP, not just shortfall cases.)



Technical requirement to determine date in-fact residence established:

The technicality I describe as a hyper-technicality is the requirement, stated in a number of Federal Court decisions and particularly applicable to a shortfall case, that the date the citizenship-applicant establishes in fact residence must be determined and only residency after that date be considered. In fact, the rule (of sorts) is that the residency issue cannot be assessed until there is a finding as to the date in-fact residence was established. This is (as Justice Mosley noted) often implicit. I would say actually it is usually implicit (at this stage I have read over a hundred of the most recent citizenship decisions and this particular finding has been addressed in only a small percentage of the cases). This is so even in most shortfall applications (where this requirement really matters).

While the application asks applicant's to state the date on which they came to Canada to live (which would be the date of establishing residence), in practice this is either the date PR status was obtained or an earlier date, not the date the individual actually came to settle into a residence in Canada. In fact, the online Residency Calculator would not even allow the applicant to enter a date later than the date PR status was obtained.

A large percentage of immigrants, however, often take a year or two or even more (after landing) to actually make the move to Canada and establish residence in Canada.

The reason I describe this as a hyper-technicality in this case is that, again, in most cases there is no explicit finding of this date, as it is apparent from the facts of the case when the applicant came to live in Canada and there is little or no reason to question the residency determination relative to that . . . and that appears to have been the case here, notwithstanding the pilot's initial lengthy absence.

This issue is not worth a great deal of attention, as it is not a particularly common issue. However, while not exactly in the same vein, my sense is that the underlying issue in this is consistent with why I think shortfall applications relying on pre-landing credit have virtually no chance of success.

I suspect that more than a few, perhaps a majority, of the last-minute rush of shortfall applications were made by applicants relying on pre-landing credit. These are the ones who faced the longest additional wait by the change in law, taking away the credit for pre-landing time. From various forum queries, it is clear that a large number were looking at the choice between waiting up to two more years under the new law, or applying before the change with a shortfall, and despite dominant discouragement from forum participants, many appear to have made the application anyway. I am afraid the odds for this group are extremely poor.

Perhaps the odds for all shortfall applications made before the change are poor. They are no good, that seems clear. We do not really know what their chances are. As in most things, however, not all shortfall cases were created equal. For those who made a shortfall application and relied on credit for pre-landing time in Canada, again I am afraid there is little or no hope.
 

Empirical-Scientist

Hero Member
Jun 4, 2012
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kingadil said:
Hi there;

I have found this link and i don't know if this is true or not as i still have about 50 days to apply but i am not sure if the new law of 4/6 would be implemented before that

"Did you know you can apply for citizenship with less than 1095 days physical presence?"

http://immigrationcanada.pro/canada-citizenship/know-can-apply-citizenship-less-1095-days-physical-presence/


Another question

As a President of a Canadian Community here in Canada would that help ???
You can apply with one day of residence if you so choose, but that wouldn't be a wise choice, would it?
 

gte439u

Full Member
Sep 27, 2013
23
1
I have been been granted citizenship despite having a small shortfall in the number of days. I applied with 1,097 days, and I subsequently realized that I forgot a trip outside of Canada. Therefore, I had 1,091 days of physical presence.

My timeline is as follows:

Application received: June 2013
In Process: August 2013
Transfer to Edmonton CIC: March 2014
Letter to CIC informing them of the shortfall: March 2014
Test: November 2014
RQ Received: November 2014
RQ Submitted: December 2014
Transfer to Montreal CIC: April 2015
Decision made in Montreal: May 2015
Transfer to Edmonton CIC: May 2015
Oath Letter: June 2015
Oath Scheduled: July 2015

I think that I was very lucky. According to my file notes requested under the <i>Privacy Act</i>, the officer in Montreal applied the legal test from <i>Papadogiorgakis</i>, and found that I have centralized my life in Canada. The officer noted that I had a stable government job in Canada and a teaching position in Canada, that my absences were for an average of one week and never more than two weeks, that I have community involvement in Canada, that I owned property in Canada and in my home country, and that I paid taxes in Canada and my home country. Based on that information, the officer granted me citizenship.

The officer noted that my credibility was not at issue.

The RQ process was time consuming, and I urge most applicants to retain legal counsel if you receive an RQ. I did it myself because I am native English speaker, and I am used to communicating with government officials.

I urge all applications to apply for more than a few days over the minimum requirement!