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Is meeting naturalization residency obligations a hardship for you? Why?

GuyanaGirl

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Yes. That is true. And again, one example among many is described by @GuyanaGirl.

That does not change the answer to the OP's second question, which is still "NO." The Canadian government has considered, at length and in-depth, what the metric should be and concluded it should be actual physical presence. And there is no hint, none, that this government, let alone the next elected government (which could seat Erin O'Toole in the Prime Minister's chair), has the slightest inclination to revisit this issue. As previously noted, what counts and how long may be tweaked, but as anyone at all familiar with Canadian politics is well aware, the current scheme is almost certainly the most liberal, flexible, and immigrant-friendly scheme Canada will have for well into the foreseeable future.

Bringing this back to the truckers described by @GuyanaGirl. And the importance of making it clear what the rules are and how they are applied, and giving them a clear map they can follow in navigating their way through the system. Including making personal job or career decisions, understanding the consequences. That is actually one of the benefits of the current metric: immigrants can know with a fair degree of certainty what the rules are and what they need to do, both in terms of keeping PR status by complying with the Residency Obligation (which should not be problematic for truckers actually based in Canada notwithstanding extensive routes in the U.S.) and in terms of qualifying for a grant of citizenship.
and that’s exactly what happened in my husbands situation( a former trucker), when he became a PR of Canada we knew that the next step would be to apply for citizenship so we read and understood the requirements and we were mindful of stays outside of the country and length of his trips; knowing that a requirement was to list every single trip whether it be vacation or work helped us to be ready come application time. Half way through the 5 year period I started entering all the trips on file into the physical presence calculator to see how things were looking and how far out he was. We were fully prepared to adjust his route and load types so we can meet the requirements.
yes, we complained so many times about how sh*tty it was that we had to list every single exit ( about 200 of them in 5 years), but at the same time we understood that this is what is requirement and we’ve got to do what we have to do. There is no one size fit all answer to citizenship, maybe in years to come we will see work trips excluded from time out of the country..but no matter how many amendments are done to the criteria, someone will always be inconvenienced by it ..…you will never be able to please everyone.
 

GuyanaGirl

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Such a great example - thank you for sharing @GuyanaGirl - this one makes a lot of sense and was one scenario that I hadn't thought of. I can imagine that there are truckers that have been PRs for long periods of time and have not been able to naturalize.

I do recognize that there are people that are just in it for the passport that don't really care to have any ties to Canada. And then, there is also the problem of ghost immigrants and physical presence fraud. But those are different discussions that I will leave be.
I also suspect many of the truckers in Canada Have not and will not be able to naturalize; that would certainly explain why I could not find many users on the citizenship forum that were employed as truckers. Luckily for us, the trucking was not the long term goal and was a means to an end at the time, so after 4 years of trucking my husband was offered a role in line with his qualifications- so he is now firmly planted on Canadian soil and we were able to meet the physical presence requirement sooner than projected. This ending is rare and does not happen for 95% of truckers.
 
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armoured

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I do recognize that there are people that are just in it for the passport that don't really care to have any ties to Canada. And then, there is also the problem of ghost immigrants and physical presence fraud. But those are different discussions that I will leave be.
Dismissing actual problems in the administration of the requirements for permanent residency and citizenship in this way is weak; they actually are directly related to the reasoning behind having the relatively simple physical presence test. It can't just be 'left aside' as something separate.
 

armoured

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and that’s exactly what happened in my husbands situation( a former trucker), when he became a PR of Canada we knew that the next step would be to apply for citizenship so we read and understood the requirements and we were mindful of stays outside of the country and length of his trips; knowing that a requirement was to list every single trip whether it be vacation or work helped us to be ready come application time.
...
There is no one size fit all answer to citizenship, maybe in years to come we will see work trips excluded from time out of the country..but no matter how many amendments are done to the criteria, someone will always be inconvenienced by it ..…you will never be able to please everyone.
Both of these are exceptionally honest and important statements: that having clear and (relatively) simple criteria, even if there is some work imposed on the PR in terms of tracking their international travel, is a significant advantage for the PRs themselves in ability to plan and prepare.

And likewise: it is a fact that it is a more challenging task to design a set of criteria that is relatively simple, clear and easy to administer and at the same time is perfectly fair in all cases - or at least that all Canadians would agree lead to the outcome that they would consider fair and ideal.

Opinions differ about what should be the outcome and who is 'deserving' (including what the OP refers to as the contradiction between having Canada as a 'permanent home' and yet not meeting the physical presence test.) That's why there are appeal processes for eg compliance with the residency obligation (and revocation of PR status).

I'd add a small point to @dpenabill's background on the history of the changes to the law to a more simple and clear physical presence test: apart from the other reasons and extensive study, it seems quite clear that one consideration was to enable simple, clear and more objective administration of the tests for residency obligation compliance and citizenship.

Specifically: some of the previous requirements were more subjective and as a result, more difficult and costly to administer, as well as subject - potentially anyway - to less consistent results and I'd guess even charter challenges (non-lawyer guess though).

There is a VERY large advantage to government - and to much of the public - to have the simple physical presence test be the first and most serious requirement. It's relatively simple to calculate and increasingly easy to check via government records. That advantage should not be underestimated.

It also has a public policy advantage - in that for the most part (I would say) Canadians do not want 'bureaucrats' to be making value judgments about the relative value (eg 'exceptional' people) of human beings. As an example, the list of 'exceptional' people referred to by the OP would exclude truckers - which I think the pandemic and the so-called essential workers has demonstrated is unfair in a different way.

So I'd prefer very few or no exceptions to the physical presence rules - beyond what is currently in law - rather than enter into constant judgments about the relative value of human beings and the reasons they 'must' be abroad. Better - again, IMO - to keep it simple and straightforward.

[I should note that I have a specific subset of those serving abroad that I would like to see enshrined in law. I won't bother with the details because it is in fact a very, very limited number of people and a bit of a technical sideshow. In other words, I'm not opposed to some very limited exceptions being made - along the lines of what is currently provided for Canadian public servants/military serving abroad - but based only on a quite strong policy and legal argument (in my view anyway) for why the exception is justified, and not based upon some more subjective idea about relative value that seems to have been implied. In other words my support for that is so narrow and technical that I don't think it makes sense to include in this overall discussion of 'hardship.']
 

dpenabill

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Well past the risk of getting weedy . . .

I'd add a small point to @dpenabill's background on the history of the changes to the law to a more simple and clear physical presence test: apart from the other reasons and extensive study, it seems quite clear that one consideration was to enable simple, clear and more objective administration of the tests for residency obligation compliance and citizenship.
Actually this factor was probably the biggest one. I did not mean to understate or ignore this aspect of "why" underlying the political decision-making leading to the near (but not entirely) universal conclusion, FOR CANADA, that the metric SHOULD be based on actual physical presence. That said, as I noted, to fully understand the reasoning one would need to go well beyond the legislative record, since the legislators and their staff were turning to and relying on input from a wide range of sources. I was here in Canada for much of that, prospectively gauging my own path to becoming a Canadian citizen, somewhat anxiously since I expected to (and did) continue my business providing services abroad, becoming intently interested in this issue by around 2009; while most of the resources were practical, data-oriented studies, formal political science tracts, and lawyer-written articles, in addition to less formal journalist articles, I also recall reading, at the time, more esoteric sources as well, like an old academic paper by the former Liberal leader Michael Ignatieff (leader when the Liberals suffered their worst ever loss, in the 2011 election, leading to a Harper-Conservative majority government and the NDP becoming the opposition party), a 1987 paper based on a lecture he had given titled "The Myth of Citizenship."

A more pertinent example of sources is the April 2014 paper by the National Immigration Law Section of the Canadian Bar Association, commenting on the then proposed SCCA (the legislation establishing a physical presence metric, adopted in June 2014) which noted that it had previously recommended the metric not be based on actual physical presence, but then stated "However, clear rules are beneficial to the adjudication of citizenship applications." And further noted, regarding the mess that devolved from the residency requirement, "We agree that this degree of uncertainty in the law should not continue." Which, obviously, echoes your point, and yes, indeed, bureaucratic efficacy was a key factor in why many others came on board and concurred in a more fixed criteria, the more well-defined metric of actual physical presence.

It should be noted that the Bar's recommendations for a presence metric did further suggest some "exceptions," much in line with the criteria outlined in the FC Koo decision (one of the three most commonly applied approaches under the residency requirement). Such "exceptions" would accommodate situations similar to the truckers' imbroglio described by @GuyanaGirl but probably not anywhere near the full range of situations referenced by the OP. The fact that some stake holders, like the immigration section in the Bar, embraced the actual presence metric BUT advocated incorporating some exceptions, is why I have said that support for a physical presence metric was NEARLY (not entirely) universal. It warrants noting that much of the opposition to including some exceptions was at least related to, if not largely rooted in, the apprehension that such exceptions would become pervasive and dominate, a phenomena jurists have described in other contexts to be cases where, in effect, the exception becomes the rule; the other branch of opposition to exceptions was more focused on efficient decision-making, aimed at minimizing if not eliminating subjective-discretionary-judgments and their inherent lack of consistency and predictability.

If one's research into this focuses primarily on the legislative record related to the SCCA alone, which is again the legislation that replaced the residency metric with a physical presence metric, that would fail to recognize the expansive effort employed in making the decision to adopt a presence metric. Harper had little or no patience for democratic process and bullied his legislation through, allowing for rather little debate, rather minimal study. Which led to the SCCA incorporating severe provisions, like eliminating any credit for time in Canada prior to becoming a landed PR, and draconian provisions like the so-called "intent" requirement. But by 2014, when Bill C-24, known as the SCCA, was tabled, questions about what the primary metric should be had long been the subject of extensive research and analysis.

In particular, the discussion and debate regarding what the metric SHOULD be, in which again this issue was fully explored, examined, discussed, researched, analyzed, and debated, at length and in-depth, generally took place over the course of a decade, 2004 (approximately) to 2014. The dominant view, that an actual physical presence test should be the metric, became the consensus view, and then by 2014 it was nearly the universal view (among Canadian politicians). By 2011, when in that year's election campaign Harper included a promise to revise the Citizenship Act and adopt some version of an actual physical presence test, that metric was very much the consensus view, and the debate was more focused on the details; by 2014 when the SCCA was tabled, again there was near universal support for an actual physical presence test, but again the debate (which Harper largely quashed) was in the details, how long, what counted, whether there should be any exceptions, and regarding what additional requirements should be included (it was in the SCCA that compliance with tax filing rules was added as a requirement, as well as the subsequently revised language and knowledge of Canada requirement extended to persons aged 64, and the subsequently repealed requirement to have an intent to continue residing in Canada).

Moreover, the problem became apparent even before that time period. The problem actually emerged by the early 1990s, when diametrically inconsistent tests were articulated by different FC justices, with no further judicial review available. I have not studied or researched the legislative record underlying the adoption of that residency requirement (adopted in the mid-1970s), other than what is referenced in the older Federal Court decisions, but even that somewhat cursory review reveals there was rather extensive research and analysis underlying the selection of the imperfectly prescribed residency metric.

That is, while the OP appears to dismiss the significance of the current law (complaining people here think the "law is the law is the law" as if that fails to address the questions asked), there is no doubt that the current law reflects a great deal of careful deliberation, over the course of DECADES, in determining what the metric SHOULD be, FOR CANADA, rather enough so to readily acknowledge the question is effectively answered . . . leaving open some questions about what options, what choices, are available to those who face imposing hurdles meeting a physical presence requirement.

Leading once again back to the scenarios referenced by @GuyanaGirl, most notably but not exclusively what one might describe as the long-haul trucker's dilemma . . . some airline personnel employed on international routes . . . and noting, however, the situation is even more difficult for those employed, for example, working on off-shore oil rigs outside Canada's territorial limits. Among others (as noted, there is no shortage of anecdotal reporting by and about PRs who encounter difficulty, many encountering difficulty meeting the PR RO let alone the citizenship presence requirement). Which as previously noted, are real situations.

Which will require a separate post, further observations in regards to "the long-haul trucker's dilemma."

. . . but noting, separating the subject of these further observations, they will NOT be in regards to those PRs whose problem meeting the presence requirement derives from being employed abroad, such as those whose career opportunities might depend on such employment, or those for whom the benefits (such as much higher compensation) would be difficult to forego, or who otherwise have personal but compelling cause to spend extended periods of time outside Canada. This is not to minimize let alone dismiss the impact such situations have for some PRs, or the hardship this may cause, but these scenarios are significantly different and involve more controversial policy questions which would complicate and distract the discussion about the scenarios I will group under the heading "the long-haul trucker's dilemma." I suspect such scenarios are actually more in the range of what the OP had in mind. But given the extent to which personal priorities tend to be involved, and the wide, wide range of particular circumstances they entail, and overall recognizing that NO, there is no prospect Canada will be revising the grant citizenship requirements to employ a metric other than physical presence, any practical discussion about these scenarios needs to focus on the particular situation.

So, what follows is NOT about those types of scenarios.
 

dpenabill

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In re "the long-haul trucker's dilemma"

Further observations in regards to what some might describe as "the long-haul trucker's dilemma" (scenarios referenced by @GuyanaGirl) . . . also affecting some airline personnel employed on international routes . . . and even more so, just as one more example among many, the off-shore oil rig worker . . . which it warrants noting, are all situations that have been the subject of discussion before. While @GuyanaGirl may not have seen the older discussions, including at least one actual case addressed by a Federal Court, involving a long-haul "short-fall" trucker, yes this scenario has come up periodically.

As I noted, this is not a novel or otherwise new issue. Indeed it has been around since at least a decade ago when forums like this were seeing anecdotal reports from individuals in this situation not only being RQ'd, but having to go to a Citizenship Judge hearing and being told, by the CJ, their application was going to be rejected because they failed to be physically present at least 1095 days within the previous four years. At that time there was discretion, often applied, to grant citizenship to such applicants. CJs could apply what was called the "Koo" test, determine the applicant (the long-haul trucker) was "resident" in Canada for at least three years within the relevant four, even though not physically present for 1095 days in those four years, and approve the individual for a grant of citizenship. At least one such case, as I recall, went to the FC. Too long ago, however, for me to recall the outcome.

Which leads to highlighting some significant differences between then and now, between the former residency requirement and the current physical presence requirement. Which I will get to.

I referenced a "short-fall." This was a short-hand term for referencing grant citizenship applications made by PRs who claimed they were "resident" in Canada for at least three years, in the then relevant four, even though they had not been physically present for three full years. We called these "short-fall" applications, or referred to them as "short-fall" applicants, because the number of days they were present in Canada was short of 1095.

Thing was, back then, pouring salt into the wound, while the Harper government had increasingly pushed interpreting and applying the residency requirement as if it required 1095 days actual physical presence, CIC's formal information about citizenship eligibility not only did not alert prospective applicants that the government was pushing this, it explicitly said that a CJ could grant citizenship to applicants who applied with less than 1095 days actual presence with NO WARNING that when CIC was making the referral to the CJ it would specifically argue the application should be denied because the applicant applied with less than 1095 days actual presence.

Note, explanation for why the residency requirement was interpreted, by some, to impose a physical presence requirement, is complex, and in large part goes back to the FC decision by Justice Muldoon, in 1993, the oft-referenced Pourghasemi decision; but basically this view interpreted "resident" (term used in the statute) in Canada to mean physically present. In contrast many CJs had, at least until those appointed by Harper, with the concurrence of FC justices (likewise, at least until those appointed by Harper), employed either a qualitative test, known as the Papadogiorgakis test of residency (based on a 1978 FC decision) which depended on "the degree to which a person in mind and fact settles into or maintains or centralizes his ordinary mode of living with its accessories in social relations, interests and conveniences at or in the place in question," or applied what was called the Koo test, based on a 1992 FC decision, which depended on determining where the applicant "regularly, normally or customarily lives." Under either of the latter two tests, the long-haul trucker living and based in Canada easily met the eligibility requirements. And undoubtedly scores of such immigrants applied for and became Canadian citizens without a problem . . . UNTIL, beginning around 2008 or so, without warning, without a caution, the Harper government began pushing the Pourghasemi physical presence test and urging CJs to deny such applicants a grant of citizenship.

Scores and scores and scores of citizenship applicants were caught off-guard. On one hand there were many instances in which this or that applicant had way fewer than 1095 days actually in Canada, including a substantial number who had spent just a few hundred days in Canada, who were being granted citizenship, mostly approved by CJs who had been appointed before Harper. In contrast, more and more applicants falling short by just a very few days were being denied, mostly by CJs appointed by Harper. And more than one long-haul trucker showed up in the forums after being surprised and dismayed to learn their application was being rejected because they were three, five, or ten days short, especially when they realized that if they had taken a holiday to stay in Canada, to pad the number of days, and waited just another month or so to apply, so they were not short by five or ten days, they would have been approved and become citizens.

This is not merely of academic, revisiting history interest; I have gone into this history in some depth for a reason. Knowing what the rules are and, just as importantly, how they are actually applied, is a paramount, fundamental requirement for due process, for procedural fairness. The rules themselves can be unfair in some instances. When lines are drawn, that will inevitably exclude some who deserve to be included. But when the rules are vague, and even more so if they are variable, and egregiously more so if they are misleading, that is a recipe for sure to cook up broad injustice for many, and largely unnecessarily so.

But more than that, vague or variably applied rules lead to a large number of cases requiring adjudication, and adjudication imposes big costs, costs in terms of much longer processing times, and very substantial costs in terms of the actual expenses incurred in administering an adjudicatory process.

Thus, it was recognized by Canadian decision-makers that a clearly defined actual physical presence test addresses both of these. PRs know the rule and how it is applied, and can make decisions accordingly. And determining an applicant's qualification for citizenship does not necessitate an unwieldy, time-consuming, adjudicatory process subject to discrepancies in the exercise of discretion, but can be largely done on the basis of a simple arithmetic calculation (unless there are contested facts). What's the saying, something about two birds, one stone?

And talking about stone . . . or that which for the foreseeable future is more or less etched in stone . . . while there is much more to it, the above explains much about "why" Canada has concluded the metric SHOULD be based on actual physical presence.

What is not etched in stone are the particulars, the details. How long? In what period of time? What other conditions? Any exceptions?

Way too much to address here. But getting back to "the long-haul trucker's dilemma," the other reason for diving so deep into the history is what it illuminates about the how-long and in-what-time-period aspect of all this. And this in turn illuminates why those with problems similar to what the OP references would be wise to let go any hope for a metric other than physical presence.

The latter first. It may not seem to be all that liberal and flexible, all that immigrant friendly, to some, to those who, as the OP references, face hardships in meeting the physical presence requirement. But the current 3/5 rule, based on physical presence, is by far the most liberal, flexible, immigrant-friendly approach anyone can reasonably anticipate, FOR CANADA. For a while, as applied to SOME, the former residency requirement was more liberal and flexible, since some PRs were granted citizenship after spending no more than three or four hundred days total in Canada (as I recall, there was at least one case where the PR was in Canada fewer than 200 days and still granted citizenship); but those cases were largely anomalies. Even among successful short-fall applications, most were close . . . so while they were not in Canada 75% of the time, they were usually in Canada at least 67% of the time, most probably at least 70%.

The current rules only require being in Canada 60% of the time. So even the long-haul trucker based in Canada but almost exclusively working U.S. routes, should meet the presence requirement taking just three weeks holiday a year plus a few other off work days, recognizing that the first day out and the last day back both count as days IN Canada. In contrast, though, if the trucker is not actually driving routes originating in Canada, such as an independent or self-employed trucker, doing a lot of routes from and to locations in the U.S., that's a different scenario. That's working in the U.S. Work abroad, even if it is just in the U.S., is not the same as work based in Canada. But in either scenario, under the current rules the trucker knows the score, can count the days, and can make decisions accordingly.
 
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