INLAND APPLICATIONS 2014

[screech339]

Don't assume everything I do is nefarious.

Let me re-tool your vaccination example to the situation I've been trying to explain:

The parent has been trying to get the "4+ year old vaccination" since the kid turned 4, but the only clinic that gives the vaccine was on strike for 6 months because they can't read.
After the strike they relocated offices, which took 4 months.
After that they were on Holiday for 2 months.

Now the kid is 5, he still doesn't have the vaccine.

The clinic finally opens again, for 1 hour a day, the clinic is staffed by trained dolphins.
The government triples the previous budget of the dolphins, but dolphins don't necessarily perform any better given more cash.

The expected wait time to get into the clinic is 30 days.
After 6 months the 5.5 year old kid finally gets into the clinic.

The worker looks at the kids birth certificate, for a full week, and finally says "This kid is 5.5 years old, this shot is for kids who are 4, sorry, no vaccine for you. Come back when you are 4".
The parent explains "my kid is at least 4 years old, he is 5.5 now, 5.5 is bigger than 4".
The worker, reviews his work instructions for a month. The work instructions say "If you are 4 you can get the vaccine."
The worker responds: "BABY NO 4! NO NONONONONONOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO".

The parent explains "yes, 5.5 is bigger than 4, my kid is old enough for the vaccine, he needs it, and he was supposed to get it 18 months ago".
The worker says, one week later, "NOOOOO ONLY FOR 4 YEAR BABY! ONLY 4! NO 4 NO VACCINE!"
The parent leaves the office frustrated.

The parent then, cleverly, hatches a clever plan. He puts a party hat on his kid that says "YAY I AM 4 TODAY", and a matching T-Shirt. He also places a sticker on his kid's birth certificate that says "4 Years Old". They go back to the clinic.
The parent says to the worker "oh wow, look at my kid who is definitely 4 years old, wow, what a 4 year old kid this is, I sure am glad he is 4 and can have his shot"
The parent presents a birth-certificate to the worker.
As further evidence the parent gives the worker a copy of his last electrical bill, also containing a sticker that says "4 Years Old" on it.
Overwhelmed by all the evidence. The worker says "Oh good, your kid is 4, and that is the age that gets the vaccine, he gets the vaccine now!"

And finally justice is done.

I completely agree with your example in that the baby is qualified to receive vaccine at 4 and you must fight the system to get it.

I have no issue with your usage of "tricking" Ontario Service if it means getting the service you were qualified for in the first place. If it means educating them better, so be it. They need their heads re-examined if they can't compute basic logic.

The question I want to ask you is this. Does an inland applicant for PR before reaching AIP stage qualifies for OHIP? Yes or No.

Does the applicant qualifies for OHIP once reaching AIP stage (including regular OWP and DM stage)? Yes or No.

If Ontario Service denies an applicant that has reached AIP stage by only receiving DM letter, then they need to be educated on CIC PR processing system. They need to know that DM is a stage reached after AIP regardless if the applicant received AIP or not. The applicant would have to appeal any negative decision or denial as the people at Ontario Service is obviously on the wrong and need to take training courses on the subject matter. Otherwise all PR applicant would have to appeal to OHIP review board. Once the review board get flooded with appeals over DM letters, they will likely put in a memo to every offices to take training on PR procedures or make them accept that DM is a valid proof of PR qualification.

 

[Toronto84]

Hey everyone,

I have a question.

We got decision made and soon we should have our landing interview.

During the process, my wife and I left Canada for a short period of time only once for personal reasons.

I've read that one of the possible questions during the landing interview was "did you ever leave Canada during the process?".

We were wondering if a couple also left Canada during the process and was asked this question at the landing interview and if the officer wanted proof for how long they went for and for what reason and asked them extensive questions about the period of time they left?

Thanks everyone for your help.

 

[GustavesF]

I completely agree with your example in that the baby is qualified to receive vaccine at 4 and you must fight the system to get it.

I have no issue with your usage of "tricking" Ontario Service if it means getting the service you were qualified for in the first place. If it means educating them better, so be it. They need their heads re-examined if they can't compute basic logic.

Head examination will be fruitless, the whole system needs to be trashed and built again to at least function at a level above incompetency.

The question I want to ask you is this. Does an inland applicant for PR before reaching AIP stage qualifies for OHIP? Yes or No.

Does the applicant qualifies for OHIP once reaching AIP stage (including regular OWP and DM stage)? Yes or No.

My answers to your questions are: doesn't matter.
No, you don't get OHIP before AIP, and yes you should get OHIP after AIP.

What's the point? Reaching AIP was supposed to be something fairly trivial.
According to CIC, AIP means that you're eligible to be a sponsor (citizen etc., not dead, not on welfare, not in jail), and you want to sponsor the right kind of family (spouse in this case). That's all AIP *really* means.

Looking at Ontario Health's verbiage they simply want to know you are in Ontario, are eligible to apply for something, and that you did apply for something.
Think about that.

Why do you suppose refugees get OHIP in 5 minutes?
Why do temporary foreign workers get OHIP in 5 minutes?
Why do foreign students get OHIP in 5 minutes?
Because they're in Ontario, they are (obviously) eligible for those programs, and are obviously in those programs.

Ontario Health does not say "we need AIP" or "we need DM".
But... the system is convoluted, so the message "you are eligible to apply" only comes with AIP.

DM is actually supposed to take some non-trivial amount of time.
But it doesn't. You essentially go from "we don't even know if you're application is in the building" to "here's your landing appointment" with nothing but 2 years of crickets in between.

If Ontario Service denies an applicant that has reached AIP stage by only receiving DM letter, then they need to be educated on CIC PR processing system. They need to know that DM is a stage reached after AIP regardless if the applicant received AIP or not. The applicant would have to appeal any negative decision or denial as the people at Ontario Service is obviously on the wrong and need to take training courses on the subject matter. Otherwise all PR applicant would have to appeal to OHIP review board. Once the review board get flooded with appeals over DM letters, they will likely put in a memo to every offices to take training on PR procedures or make them accept that DM is a valid proof of PR qualification.

I don't disagree with you that they should know this BS, but they don't.
The letter of the law says you need a letter with specific words.

It's not just their fault. It's the whole system's fault. It's flawed and ridiculous.
It's all ridiculous, don't you agree?

AIP was designed to be an 8 month waiting period, that's all.
According to CIC's guidelines, AIP is just a very basic first-pass through some filters to make sure you aren't a fake person trying to sponsor another fake person.
You wait 8 months so they're sure you're serious and that's that.

No one earns OHIP, ever, it's granted to people who receive social assistance, to people who pay zero tax, and to millionaires who pay amounts of taxes that eclipse our combined salaries. Nothing to do with anything other than some basic proof that you intend to remain in Canada for some period of time, and you are allowed to.

The whole spirit of the guidelines has been killed.

The only way they could do worse than they are right now is if you submit your application, wait 3 years, and either get your PR card in the mail or a request to send more documentation.
At that point in time you can apply for OHIP or not.
...regardless of the fact that at some unknown point somewhere in the past that you might have become eligible.

 

[screech339]

My answers to your questions are: doesn't matter.
No, you don't get OHIP before AIP, and yes you should get OHIP after AIP.

Glad to know that we both finally agreed that you must be qualified for PR processing first before qualifying for OHIP.

What's the point? Reaching AIP was supposed to be something fairly trivial.
According to CIC, AIP means that you're eligible to be a sponsor (citizen etc., not dead, not on welfare, not in jail), and you want to sponsor the right kind of family (spouse in this case). That's all AIP *really* means.
Looking at Ontario Health's verbiage they simply want to know you are in Ontario, are eligible to apply for something, and that you did apply for something.
Think about that.

AIP also means that CIC is satisfied that the relationship is genuine. So it is not just the sponsor only. The applicant’s relationship to the sponsor is also examined. Why do you think there are interviews made before AIP is granted? This is where the applicant can fail to get AIP stage despite having pilot OWP. Chances of this happening is low but can still happen. Remember both the sponsor and applicant gets AIP notices.

Why do temporary foreign workers get OHIP in 5 minutes?

They are in a different set of immigration status. They are not landing as PR thus government doesn’t mind taking their taxes to pay for their medical health. Besides do you honestly think that the government or even the temporary worker want to come to Canada and work without any medical coverage? Workers would not want to here working knowing they are not protected from undue medical cost. They don't want to come to Canada with a possibility of going bankrupt over unexpected medical bills. Yes it is unfair but they are in a different set of immigration process and circumstances from inland spousal PR process.

Why do you suppose refugees get OHIP in 5 minutes?

Same reason as mentioned above.

Why do foreign students get OHIP in 5 minutes?

Same reason as mentioned above.

Looking at Ontario Health's verbiage they simply want to know you are in Ontario, are eligible to apply for something, and that you did apply for something.
Because they're in Ontario, they are (obviously) eligible for those programs, and are obviously in those programs.
Ontario Health does not say "we need AIP" or "we need DM".
But... the system is convoluted, so the message "you are eligible to apply" only comes with AIP.

While Ontario Health does not say “we need AIP” or "we need DM", it does say this:

http://www.health.gov.on.ca/en/public/publications/ohip/ohip_eligibility.aspx

OHIP Eligibility

Am I eligible for Ontario health insurance coverage?

You may be eligible for the Ontario Health Insurance Plan (OHIP) if you are included under one of the following categories:

- you have submitted an application for permanent residence in Canada, and Citizenship and Immigration Canada has confirmed that you meet the eligibility requirements to apply for permanent residence in Canada ;

The bold I highlighted is what AIP, Regular OWP and DM stage mean. That you met the requirements for PR qualifications. It appears that you like to ignore the "eligibility for PR in Canada" verbiage and thus it doesn't apply to inland PR sponsorship.

 

[GustavesF]

Glad to know that we both finally agreed that you must be qualified for PR processing first before qualifying for OHIP.

AIP also means that CIC is satisfied that the relationship is genuine.

No, it does not. That is investigated after AIP.

So it is not just the sponsor only. The applicant’s relationship to the sponsor is also examined. Why do you think there are interviews made before AIP is granted?

Interviews are not made before AIP is granted.

This is where the applicant can fail to get AIP stage despite having pilot OWP. Chances of this happening is low but can still happen. Remember both the sponsor and applicant gets AIP notices.

There are zero requirements for the Pilot OWP besides having submitted an application for PR.
You don't have sponsorship approval before Pilot OWP. It's a completely unrelated band-aid to cover up how ridiculous the Inland stream is.
So, the chances of not getting AIP after getting Pilot OWP are about the same chance that a submitted PR application doesn't go through.
The only thing stopping more people from getting the Pilot OWP is the completely moronic payment process that requires 2 or 3 line items to be paid instead of a simple fee.

They are in a different set of immigration status. They are not landing as PR thus government doesn’t mind taking their taxes to pay for their medical health. Besides do you honestly think that the government or even the temporary worker want to come to Canada and work without any medical coverage? Workers would not want to here working knowing they are not protected from undue medical cost. They don't want to come to Canada with a possibility of going bankrupt over unexpected medical bills. Yes it is unfair but they are in a different set of immigration process and circumstances from inland spousal PR process.

Not a question, rhetorical but yes, they likely would come anyway. Especially if they're from a country without socialized healthcare in the first place.
This may shock you, but the US also has migrant workers, and had them before Obamacare.

While Ontario Health does not say “we need AIP” or "we need DM", it does say this:

http://www.health.gov.on.ca/en/public/publications/ohip/ohip_eligibility.aspx

OHIP Eligibility

Am I eligible for Ontario health insurance coverage?

You may be eligible for the Ontario Health Insurance Plan (OHIP) if you are included under one of the following categories:

- you have submitted an application for permanent residence in Canada, and Citizenship and Immigration Canada has confirmed that you meet the eligibility requirements to apply for permanent residence in Canada ;

The bold I highlighted is what AIP, Regular OWP and DM stage mean. That you met the requirements for PR qualifications. It appears that you like to ignore the "eligibility for PR in Canada" verbiage and thus it doesn't apply to inland PR sponsorship.

First, why do you keep telling me how it is. I know how it is. That's why I hate it.
If it was how I think it should be I wouldn't be here complaining about it.

Second, I don't ignore the "eligibility for PR in Canada" verbiage. I know all about it. It's the verbiage I waited for, for 2 years and never received.
The meaning is almost nothing. It's just the words they want to see.
"Eligibility requirements to apply for permanent residence in Canada" is just verbiage that just so happens to be in your letter of AIP, that they use as their signal words.
Those words have meaning, they aren't simply the motto of AIP, but since they're found on no other documents that's what the workers are instructed to look for.
Do you even know what those words mean? Outside of "those are the words on AIP".

No, the bold is not what AIP, OWP, or DM mean.
AIP means approval in principal, that the sponsor is approved and sponsor has chosen to sponsor an applicable family member. Applicant is not researched at this time, at least according to CIC.
Positive DM means that the Sponsor and Applicant have been both been reviewed and accepted.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I know the requirements, stop telling me the requirements.
I know the misguided policies, stop telling me what they are.

Yes, I completely understand that whatever the completely brain dead bureaucracy decides, is how it is.
It is how it is. I know. I don't need you to tell me.
I have waited, and I have complied with all the stupid decisions of all the moronic politicians, and I've waited till completely inept workers have raked my application through whatever piles they rake them through.
I've done it all, everything completely legal, all fees paid, all regulations complied with, to the letter of moronic law.

....yet, unlike yourself, I still have not been brainwashed to believe that this is the best Canada can do. This is pathetic. Making it though doesn't leave me with any pleasant memories.

Clearly you work for the government, that's the only explanation for you being so incapable of understanding anyone dissatisfied with how things are done.
Get over it, nothing against you, but my opinion of the government isn't going to change unless the government changes. More knowledge on how they work DOES NOT HELP.
I know it is a mismanaged sinking ship full of misguided lazy stooges, I don' t need further evidence.

Here I am complaining about the bank closing at noon, and here you are telling me that the bank should close at noon because that's what the sign on the door says, because you're a banker.

 

[screech339]

No, it does not. That is investigated after AIP.

Interviews are not made before AIP is granted.

You are incorrect in that statement. There have been few reports made on this forum that applicants and sponsors were brought in for interviews for verification of genuineness of marriage / relationship. Once they passed the interview, AIP were granted AFTER the interview. Some were even granted AIP at the office on the spot after the interview was concluded. This proves that genuineness of relationship of applicant is also examined before AIP. This includes conducting an interview with sponsor / applicant.

 

[Ponga]

No, it does not. That is investigated after AIP.

Actually, this is true for Inland applicants. This is shown on the Flowchart that is found in CIC IP8.

 

[screech339]

AIP means approval in principal, that the sponsor is approved and sponsor has chosen to sponsor an applicable family member. Applicant is not researched at this time, at least according to CIC.
Positive DM means that the Sponsor and Applicant have been both been reviewed and accepted.

BTW: You are referring to the sponsor getting AIP. Yes the sponsor has gotten AIP but the it's the applicant that also need to get AIP. Once sponsor has gotten AIP, then they examine the applicant. Just because the sponsor gets AIP, doesn't automatically mean that the applicant will get AIP too. Majority of the time, it is within hours. However if there are any issues with the applicant, including genuine relationship, they can delay the applicant's AIP until they are satisfied that the relationship is genuine. This includes conducting an interview between sponsor and applicant.

This is why an applicant can become disqualified for PR while holding a pilot OWP, despite sponsor having received AIP. Changes of this happening is low but it can still happen.

 

[Ponga]

BTW: You are referring to the sponsor getting AIP. Yes the sponsor has gotten AIP but the it's the applicant that also need to get AIP. Once sponsor has gotten AIP, then they examine the applicant. Just because the sponsor gets AIP, doesn't automatically mean that the applicant will get AIP too. Majority of the time, it is within hours. However if there are any issues with the applicant, including genuine relationship, they can delay the applicant's AIP until they are satisfied that the relationship is genuine. This includes conducting an interview between sponsor and applicant.

This is why an applicant can become disqualified for PR while holding a pilot OWP. Changes of this happening is low but it can still happen.

There is no AIP for the sponsor. SA is all that the sponsor gets.

 

[screech339]

There is no AIP for the sponsor. SA is all that the sponsor gets.

Thanks for correcting me. A lot of people want to save themselves the trouble by saying AIP for sponsor and AIP for applicant. Even though it is really SA for sponsor. SA = Sponsor Approval.

 

[Ponga]

Thanks for correcting me. A lot of people want to save themselves the trouble by saying AIP for sponsor and AIP for applicant. Even though it is really SA for sponsor. SA = Sponsor Approval.

It's one of the few parts of this ridiculous process that makes sense. The sponsor is either approved, or is not approved. There's no reason for the `in principle' stage for the sponsor.

 

[naviboy]

Hi Toronto84

My wife landed at Etobicoke office a few days ago. They do ask that question but its only asked to be included on your COPR document. There is a column on COPR asking "First Entry" and "Last Entry". You should disclosed when you left last and entered.

Me and My wife also left Canada during the process of our application. We disclosed these dates when the immigration officer asked us about them. The officers/agents at Etobicoke are very nice and helpful.

Hope this helps.
Naviboy.

Hey everyone,

I have a question.

We got decision made and soon we should have our landing interview.

During the process, my wife and I left Canada for a short period of time only once for personal reasons.

I've read that one of the possible questions during the landing interview was "did you ever leave Canada during the process?".

We were wondering if a couple also left Canada during the process and was asked this question at the landing interview and if the officer wanted proof for how long they went for and for what reason and asked them extensive questions about the period of time they left?

Thanks everyone for your help.

 

[Toronto84]

Hi Toronto84

My wife landed at Etobicoke office a few days ago. They do ask that question but its only asked to be included on your COPR document. There is a column on COPR asking "First Entry" and "Last Entry". You should disclosed when you left last and entered.

Me and My wife also left Canada during the process of our application. We disclosed these dates when the immigration officer asked us about them. The officers/agents at Etobicoke are very nice and helpful.

Hope this helps.
Naviboy.

Thank you very much.

 

[GustavesF]

It's one of the few parts of this ridiculous process that makes sense. The sponsor is either approved, or is not approved. There's no reason for the `in principle' stage for the sponsor.

When you apply inland, do you ever actually get SA?

I know that when you get AIP it's actually AIP and SA, but presuming that SA happens some (maybe small) amount of processing before AIP, do they actually release/get the results of SA before AIP?

My experience is apparently not the norm, but it would seem that things you don't get results for are the things that happen at the same time as further steps.
So, I never got anything for SA. I don't know if anyone ever does, but I do know that some people get AIP. Do those people also get SA, or is that just implied?

 

[screech339]

When you apply inland, do you ever actually get SA?

I know that when you get AIP it's actually AIP and SA, but presuming that SA happens some (maybe small) amount of processing before AIP, do they actually release/get the results of SA before AIP?

My experience is apparently not the norm, but it would seem that things you don't get results for are the things that happen at the same time as further steps.
So, I never got anything for SA. I don't know if anyone ever does, but I do know that some people get AIP. Do those people also get SA, or is that just implied?

There are two process. One is SA for sponsor. And AIP for applicant. I have gotten SA as sponsor (or AIP for those who prefer to call it that), hours later did my spouse the applicant has gotten AIP. These are two completely difference process / flow process. Once the sponsor has gotten SA, the next step is AIP for applicant. Most of the time, SA and AIP are issued within hours, if not AIP is issued within a couple of days after SA.

You seem to think AIP and SA are one of the same. They are not. One is addressed to the sponsor. And the other is addressed to the applicant. While some sponsor don't always get SA. It is not really an important stage in process. It doesnt give the applicant any ability to apply for OHIP or regular OWP. AIP for applicant is one of the most important stage of the process. This allows the applicant to apply for OHIP or regular OWP and most importantly, at that stage, CIC accepts the genuineness of the sponsor/applicant relationship.