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How much buffer time do you keep?

kushari

Hero Member
Oct 3, 2012
801
87
Category........
Visa Office......
CPP-Ottawa
NOC Code......
6221
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
09-10-2012
AOR Received.
30-11-2012
IELTS Request
22-06-2012
Med's Request
12-12-2013
Med's Done....
18-12-2013
Passport Req..
19-03-2014
VISA ISSUED...
24/03/2014
LANDED..........
27/03/2014
Hi All,
I will be completing 2 years of PR on September 9. I have lived 3 more years as FSW before getting PR and never left the country then. After PR I spent 20 days abroad. So technically I'll be eligible for PR by Sep 30.
However in the days calculation, if I exit Canada on 5th August and return on 8th August it counts as 2 not 3.
And day trips are not counted nor 2 day trips. ie- exit Canada on 5th August and comeback on 6th August is counted as 0 as well.
I know the exact dates when I was not in Canada, I logged each exit and entries carefully.
How much buffer time do you keep for the application? I was wondering if I'm eligible on Sep 30 when I should apply.
If you're sure, then 0 or 1. I was sure, but forgot about one trip of 90 days, but my buffer was over 1 year because I fell in the cracks between C6 and after C6.
 

ZingyDNA

Champion Member
Aug 12, 2013
1,252
185
Category........
Visa Office......
CPP-Ottawa
NOC Code......
2111
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
28-06-2013
AOR Received.
28-08-2013
IELTS Request
Sent with Application
Med's Request
21-02-2014 (principal applicant)
Med's Done....
07-03-2014 (both, upfront for spouse)
Passport Req..
10-04-2014
VISA ISSUED...
22-04-2014
LANDED..........
13-06-2014
If you're sure, then 0 or 1. I was sure, but forgot about one trip of 90 days, but my buffer was over 1 year because I fell in the cracks between C6 and after C6.
How can you forget a 90-day trip? :eek:
 

OdinNguyen

Hero Member
Mar 30, 2017
571
149
Job Offer........
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https://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/threads/status-period-before-pr.581776/

Hi guys,

Here is my situation:

- I am on visitor visa since Mar 2015
- Some where in 2015 probably June or Jul I obtained OWP. (I can't remember the exact date)
- In Oct 2016, I extend my OWP as my wife graduated and have her PGWP
- I got my PR on Sep 2017.

When trying the form https://eservices.cic.gc.ca/rescalc/resCalcStartNew.do
I notice they ask me the exact periods of my status in Canada. But I am not sure about the date when I moved from visitor visa to OWP in 2015. Is it going to be an issue if I just estimate it?
 

kushari

Hero Member
Oct 3, 2012
801
87
Category........
Visa Office......
CPP-Ottawa
NOC Code......
6221
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
09-10-2012
AOR Received.
30-11-2012
IELTS Request
22-06-2012
Med's Request
12-12-2013
Med's Done....
18-12-2013
Passport Req..
19-03-2014
VISA ISSUED...
24/03/2014
LANDED..........
27/03/2014
How can you forget a 90-day trip? :eek:
Because It was before I became a PR, 4 years ago. I just counted after I became a PR instead of 5 years.
 

ZingyDNA

Champion Member
Aug 12, 2013
1,252
185
Category........
Visa Office......
CPP-Ottawa
NOC Code......
2111
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
28-06-2013
AOR Received.
28-08-2013
IELTS Request
Sent with Application
Med's Request
21-02-2014 (principal applicant)
Med's Done....
07-03-2014 (both, upfront for spouse)
Passport Req..
10-04-2014
VISA ISSUED...
22-04-2014
LANDED..........
13-06-2014
Because It was before I became a PR, 4 years ago. I just counted after I became a PR instead of 5 years.
Ahh, makes sense. I didn't expect pre-PR days to count until news came out about C-6, so I had to look into my pre-PR travels, even though I was pretty sure I had enough days regardless.
 

kushari

Hero Member
Oct 3, 2012
801
87
Category........
Visa Office......
CPP-Ottawa
NOC Code......
6221
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
09-10-2012
AOR Received.
30-11-2012
IELTS Request
22-06-2012
Med's Request
12-12-2013
Med's Done....
18-12-2013
Passport Req..
19-03-2014
VISA ISSUED...
24/03/2014
LANDED..........
27/03/2014
Ahh, makes sense. I didn't expect pre-PR days to count until news came out about C-6, so I had to look into my pre-PR travels, even though I was pretty sure I had enough days regardless.
Yeah, I didn't forget about the trip itself, I was very well aware, I just didn't think I needed to count it. I had made a spreadsheet of all my travels when I had come back, and didn't do the actual math.
 

riasat.abir

Hero Member
Aug 9, 2012
691
34
Burnaby
Visa Office......
CPC-Ottawa
NOC Code......
2174
App. Filed.......
2015-12-17
AOR Received.
2016-02-22
Med's Done....
2016-03-09
Passport Req..
2016-08-17
VISA ISSUED...
2016-08-30
LANDED..........
2016-09-09
LOL, I had a 1 day buffer on my wife's application. Mine was about 14 days.
I made few one day trips to the US. Say I went to States on 1st September and came back on 2nd September.
On the physical presence calculator it shows as 0 as their counting method is end_date - start_date -1.
Should I count this trip as 0 or 1 that was my main concern.
 

tenacioustopanga

Star Member
Dec 9, 2017
71
21
I had a buffer of 60 days and I don’t think it’s absurd at all - I only started tracking trips post PR so my pre PR trips were guesses based on emails and I used to drive to the US a lot to visit friends. Turns out I missed about 10 days worth of overnighters across the border and my buffer saved my butt.
 

vasvas

Star Member
Oct 12, 2017
141
56
I made few one day trips to the US. Say I went to States on 1st September and came back on 2nd September.
On the physical presence calculator it shows as 0 as their counting method is end_date - start_date -1.
Should I count this trip as 0 or 1 that was my main concern.
The physical presence calculator is your official counter :)
IRCC follows the same calculation as the physical presence calculator. If you arrived in Canada on 2nd Sep, that day is credited in your physical presence. Just be careful about the travels where you drive across around midnight. You may think you arrived on the 2nd while CBSA logged you in on the 3rd.
It's a question of how risk averse you are; whether you submit an application on the 1096th day or 1200th day, just be careful about documenting all your trips during the eligibility period. If you cut it too close and then the officer finds a missed trip, it may lead them to dig deeper. It also depends on the officer you get. Good luck with your application!
 

riasat.abir

Hero Member
Aug 9, 2012
691
34
Burnaby
Visa Office......
CPC-Ottawa
NOC Code......
2174
App. Filed.......
2015-12-17
AOR Received.
2016-02-22
Med's Done....
2016-03-09
Passport Req..
2016-08-17
VISA ISSUED...
2016-08-30
LANDED..........
2016-09-09
The physical presence calculator is your official counter :)
IRCC follows the same calculation as the physical presence calculator. If you arrived in Canada on 2nd Sep, that day is credited in your physical presence. Just be careful about the travels where you drive across around midnight. You may think you arrived on the 2nd while CBSA logged you in on the 3rd.
It's a question of how risk averse you are; whether you submit an application on the 1096th day or 1200th day, just be careful about documenting all your trips during the eligibility period. If you cut it too close and then the officer finds a missed trip, it may lead them to dig deeper. It also depends on the officer you get. Good luck with your application!
Thanks, I have logged each entry with timestamp. Yes I also considered midnight as next day.
So I will trust the physical presence calculator and add some buffer days.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,297
3,062
I made few one day trips to the US. Say I went to States on 1st September and came back on 2nd September.
On the physical presence calculator it shows as 0 as their counting method is end_date - start_date -1.
Should I count this trip as 0 or 1 that was my main concern.
Thanks, I have logged each entry with timestamp. Yes I also considered midnight as next day.
So I will trust the physical presence calculator and add some buffer days.
I largely concur in the observations posted by @vasvas.

The main point warrants emphasis: rely on the online physical presence calculator. It will calculate an EXACT number for days absent, number of days counting as present, duly taking into account credits for whole or half days as applicable.

(Note, for example, that absences after landing require an additional day of presence in Canada until, at the very least, the PR has been physically present in Canada a minimum of 730 days after landing NO matter how long the PR was in Canada before landing. But if the information is correctly entered into the online presence calculator, this is all properly calculated for the applicant, no need to do any arithmetic let alone math.)


Beyond that, some caveats and reminders:

I. The Reliable Calculation: A reliable calculation depends on (1) using the physical presence calculator, and (2) PRECISELY entering ALL exit and entry dates ACCURATELY. Also see below further reminder re getting this information right.


II. Buffer Insurance: There are TWO types of buffer insurance benefits.

1. Shortfall Protection: That is, having enough buffer to avoid being short if IRCC determines or perceives there are absences in addition to those declared in the applicant's residency calculation. (Enough to cover potential applicant mistakes or IRCC's error or CBSA travel history errors; while these, and the latter two in particular, may be unlikely, remember that insurance is not about what will happen but more about what can happen even if unusual, as some Ottawa area residents got an F-3 lesson about this last week.)

2. Non-routine processing avoidance: That is, providing enough of a margin over the minimum to reduce the risk of non-routine processing, and especially full-blown RQ, to in effect minimize the risk of lengthy delays in the processing timeline.​

The first of these is about avoiding a negative outcome. Falling short results in the application being denied.

The second is about avoiding, to the extent possible, the inconvenience and delay of additional requests for proof of presence. This is about having enough over the minimum to make IRCC personnel comfortable concluding there is no reason to question or more closely examine the applicant's presence calculation or travel history.

While there are many factors to consider in deciding how long to wait, in deciding when-is-the-right-time-to-apply? as to just the frequency of travel aspect, a buffer of an extra day or so for each border-crossing is probably a sensible guideline. (Thus, for example, the PR who has made three or four week-long or longer trips abroad, plus a dozen day or one-night trips to the U.S., would be prudent to have a buffer of at least two to four weeks.) Other factors may suggest more (if, for example, there is any chance of overlooking a trip or even just being off on the dates of a trip, if for example the PR did not keep perfect contemporaneous record of all travel, a bigger buffer would be prudent).


III. More Regarding The Reliable Calculation:

As noted, a reliable calculation depends on (1) using the physical presence calculator, and (2) PRECISELY entering ALL exit and entry dates ACCURATELY. The importance of getting this information precisely accurate cannot be overstated.

Thus, for example, boarding an international flight scheduled to depart a Canadian airport before midnight is an exit on that date, the date before midnight, even if the flight sits on the tarmac past midnight let alone does not actually leave Canadian air space until after midnight. Similarly, the arrival date is based on the date the PR actually clears customs. It is not the time a flight enters Canadian air space, not the time the flight lands on the tarmac in Canada, and not the time the PR walks into the terminal . . . even if all those are before midnight, but if customs is not cleared until after midnight, the date of arrival is the date after midnight.

Similarly as to short road trips to the U.S. It is the date the respective border officer swipes or otherwise logs entry that counts. After midnight is the next day.

Common error: Scores and scores of citizenship applicants make the mistake of reporting exit dates based on a passport stamp showing date of entry into another country. This can be off by two days for a Trans-Pacific flight, and is off by at least one day for any red-eye or late night flight. While one or two such errors, all alone with no other errors, should not cause much of a problem, the risk of elevated scrutiny and delays will increase significantly if there are multiple such errors, or if they occur in conjunction with other mistakes.
 

smallpotato

Full Member
Oct 10, 2017
41
17
Not sure why you think this amount of buffer is absurd. For most applicants who have kept perfect records, waiting thirty to ninety days to apply after reaching the minimum should give them plenty of margin, a good buffer, not at all absurd. Indeed, as a few others report, even 20 or 30 days can be enough.

But an applicant who accurately reports all the relevant information in the application and presence calculation should feel confident that when a total stranger bureaucrat reviews the presence calculation an extra 30 to 90 days should easily help the processing agent and citizenship officer feel comfortable in concluding the applicant met the requirement without sending the application into non-routine processing to obtain further evidence documenting presence.

But sure, some applicants will be prudent to wait longer. Depending on a range of factors. You've shared way, way too little about your facts to know whether, say, 90 days would be plenty for you, but 90 days would easily pass the NOT-Absurd threshold. And, depending, maybe even just thirty days passes the NOT-absurd threshold.

One of the more common mistakes prospective applicants make is to focus too exclusively on the number of days present and overlook other factors which should be considered in deciding WHEN is the best time to apply. For example, I was self-employed, my work-product sold to clients abroad, so in conjunction with some other personal circumstances I elected to wait a lot longer than an extra 90 days. But that was about my personal circumstances.

Many, many times waiting longer to apply can and does mean the oath of citizenship comes sooner. Obviously, not always. But waiting another thirty or fifty days goes by really fast for most, and then when for months and months they do not hear anything about how the application is going, which is very common these days, there is NO worry that some stranger bureaucrat is not comfortable feeling certain the minimum presence requirement is met.


Note: 1095 days credit meets the requirement. That gets the applicant to the oath EVENTUALLY. In contrast, having a buffer is mostly about two things:

-- one, is having enough days just in case there was a mistake, OR A STRANGER BUREAUCRAT SUSPECTS A MISTAKE, so that even if some days are deducted the applicant is still eligible

-- two, just as importantly in my view, is having enough days the total stranger bureaucrats reviewing the application are easily persuaded there is NO reason to question or doubt that the applicant meets the requirements, no need to make further inquiry into evidence of presence

The first of these is about being sure to be eligible. There is a tendency to focus on this alone. Which works out for many. The second is about approaching the process to minimize the risk IRCC perceives a need to dig a little or a lot deeper, about reassuring the citizenship officer there is no doubt about meeting the presence requirement. More than a few overlook or ignore this aspect. Still works out OK for some. But this forum is rife with tales of woe from applicants complaining about how the process is taking longer for them than it is for others. Contrary to much of the whining, it is NOT about arbitrary or capricious or malicious or neglectful processing agents. There is never any way to guarantee an applicant will benefit from the fastest, smooth sailing path, but there are plenty of ways to increase the risk of delays and non-routine processing.
Super helpful, thank you!!
 

smallpotato

Full Member
Oct 10, 2017
41
17
I largely concur in the observations posted by @vasvas.

The main point warrants emphasis: rely on the online physical presence calculator. It will calculate an EXACT number for days absent, number of days counting as present, duly taking into account credits for whole or half days as applicable.

(Note, for example, that absences after landing require an additional day of presence in Canada until, at the very least, the PR has been physically present in Canada a minimum of 730 days after landing NO matter how long the PR was in Canada before landing. But if the information is correctly entered into the online presence calculator, this is all properly calculated for the applicant, no need to do any arithmetic let alone math.)


Beyond that, some caveats and reminders:

I. The Reliable Calculation:
A reliable calculation depends on (1) using the physical presence calculator, and (2) PRECISELY entering ALL exit and entry dates ACCURATELY. Also see below further reminder re getting this information right.


II. Buffer Insurance: There are TWO types of buffer insurance benefits.

1. Shortfall Protection: That is, having enough buffer to avoid being short if IRCC determines or perceives there are absences in addition to those declared in the applicant's residency calculation. (Enough to cover potential applicant mistakes or IRCC's error or CBSA travel history errors; while these, and the latter two in particular, may be unlikely, remember that insurance is not about what will happen but more about what can happen even if unusual, as some Ottawa area residents got an F-3 lesson about this last week.)​
2. Non-routine processing avoidance: That is, providing enough of a margin over the minimum to reduce the risk of non-routine processing, and especially full-blown RQ, to in effect minimize the risk of lengthy delays in the processing timeline.​

The first of these is about avoiding a negative outcome. Falling short results in the application being denied.

The second is about avoiding, to the extent possible, the inconvenience and delay of additional requests for proof of presence. This is about having enough over the minimum to make IRCC personnel comfortable concluding there is no reason to question or more closely examine the applicant's presence calculation or travel history.

While there are many factors to consider in deciding how long to wait, in deciding when-is-the-right-time-to-apply? as to just the frequency of travel aspect, a buffer of an extra day or so for each border-crossing is probably a sensible guideline. (Thus, for example, the PR who has made three or four week-long or longer trips abroad, plus a dozen day or one-night trips to the U.S., would be prudent to have a buffer of at least two to four weeks.) Other factors may suggest more (if, for example, there is any chance of overlooking a trip or even just being off on the dates of a trip, if for example the PR did not keep perfect contemporaneous record of all travel, a bigger buffer would be prudent).


III. More Regarding The Reliable Calculation:

As noted, a reliable calculation depends on (1) using the physical presence calculator, and (2) PRECISELY entering ALL exit and entry dates ACCURATELY. The importance of getting this information precisely accurate cannot be overstated.

Thus, for example, boarding an international flight scheduled to depart a Canadian airport before midnight is an exit on that date, the date before midnight, even if the flight sits on the tarmac past midnight let alone does not actually leave Canadian air space until after midnight. Similarly, the arrival date is based on the date the PR actually clears customs. It is not the time a flight enters Canadian air space, not the time the flight lands on the tarmac in Canada, and not the time the PR walks into the terminal . . . even if all those are before midnight, but if customs is not cleared until after midnight, the date of arrival is the date after midnight.

Similarly as to short road trips to the U.S. It is the date the respective border officer swipes or otherwise logs entry that counts. After midnight is the next day.

Common error: Scores and scores of citizenship applicants make the mistake of reporting exit dates based on a passport stamp showing date of entry into another country. This can be off by two days for a Trans-Pacific flight, and is off by at least one day for any red-eye or late night flight. While one or two such errors, all alone with no other errors, should not cause much of a problem, the risk of elevated scrutiny and delays will increase significantly if there are multiple such errors, or if they occur in conjunction with other mistakes.
@dpenabill I have to say that your clarity of thinking and writing is extremely rare - appreciate/enjoy reading every post of yours!
 

jickson

Hero Member
Dec 17, 2014
306
41
Category........
Visa Office......
Ottawa
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
I had 3 days of buffer, and my wife had 5 days! No issue, not even mentioned during the interview.

But we were absolutely sure about all our travel records, and had no gap in passport validity.
 

fr72

Hero Member
Jan 6, 2017
375
253
Why cant we simply go by CBSA records? For my part, I have meticulously maintained a travel record sheet, half of which I have matched exactly with CBSA records which I obtained from the Right to Information Act. I have now requested the remaining records from CBSA. If they also match exactly, I plan to have no more than a week's buffer.

If an agent is suspicious of my eligibility, wont they simply accept the CBSA records? Isn't the CBSA record the ultimate source of truth?