Have Canadian PR , never lived in Canada

[dpenabill]

About 9% Canadians live outside Canada according to one study. You mean to say all of them are narcissistic and opportunistic?

No, I did not mean to say that any Canadian living outside Canada is . . . well, anything. Did not mention or so much as allude to the status or attitude of that demographic at all.

Likewise much of the rest you ascribe to me, either overtly or implicitly in the "do you think [it is] moral to . . . " questions . . . most of which allude to broad problems (yeah, Canada is part of the real world, a real world with lots of problems) which affect immigrants but are not really immigration issues. (In terms of those that are immigration issues, like the heart wrenching impact of limited family unification outside spouses and dependents, like many, many other immigrants, I feel that pain, wishing there was a way to bring more family here. Not sure the bureaucratic and logistical difficulties are "moral" questions however, and frankly playing the morality card for this issue has a distinctly disingenuous scent.)

Otherwise, as to what you say your "only point is," if that really was your point, I admit I missed it, by a big margin. As huge and unwieldly the subject of Canadian immigration policy and practice is, which that alone is way beyond the scope of the uninformed and superficial views about Canadian immigration expressed by some here, I did not realize you were off on an even bigger tangent, a general political, social, economic, health care in Canada tangent. My excuse for misunderstanding your only point (purportedly), apart from what is "pushing" you "to move out of Canada" (but apparently not before getting Canadian citizenship; regarding which, again, Canada is not holding you here and there is no need to wait to get citizenship to make the move) is that the many social and economic problems Canadians are confronted by is way off topic in a thread which purported to pose an inquiry about border control practices affecting PRs traveling to Canada after lengthy absences. So I missed it.

Regarding those big issues, I will not attempt to compete with Rosemary Barton. She is both better informed than me and more capable of asking the important questions.

Otherwise I will disagree rather vehemently with more than a few of your characterizations of the problems. Dealing with problems demands identifying the problem, the real problem, not indulging in hyperbolic caricature.

As for the reference to "narcissistic opportunists bad mouthing good people as they maraud and exploit their way toward perpetual unhappiness they are all too willing to blame on others," they know who they are. The rest of us see who they are. Ugly has a way of being obvious.

As I noted before, I realize my perspective is probably skewed by the extent to which I was, well, financially comfortable before I became a Canadian. I undoubtedly have some blind spots. However, I am not blind to fact that there are real problems, including some rather serious ones you did not mention. And I am well aware that many of the problems settled-Canadians confront tend to be aggravated and significantly more serious for many immigrants. Housing looms large in that equation. But the housing problem in Canada is not unique to Canada, and it is not particularly an immigration issue. And not much relevant to questions about border control screening of returning PRs.

All that said, and it warrants repeating with emphasis, Canada is a really great place to live for many, many people. And a lot of Canadians are dedicated to doing their part to deal with the problems we have and working hard to make this an even greater place to forge a life. It's a cliché, but its apt, those who are not part of the solution, are part of the problem. Which brings up that [insert expletives at will] south of here, which is so often mentioned. It seems to me a far larger share of the populace in Canada is about being part of the solution.

And that includes a lot of people in the Canadian government trying to work "on policies to produce good paying manufacturing jobs, invest in making housing affordable, cut down abuse of social programs."

As for your proffered tax policy and gratuitous insults aimed at those getting benefits, not much surprise there.

Did I mention, for those whose primary target in Canada is economic opportunity, a spoiler alert: Canada may indeed NOT be the place for them.

 

[jakklondon]

You can’t compare illegal migration and asylum seekers to PRs. Canada is much more lenient when it comes to ROs. First of all it only requires someone to live in Canada 730 days out of 5 years so PRs can remain outside Canada for full years. Many are also able to enter without being reported for not meeting their RO. In the US a green card holder has to spend at least 6 months in the US and the ROs are strictly enforced. If Canada enforced the ROs and reported anyone not meeting the 730 days in 5 years most PRs would make sure they meet their RO.

I have no intention to compare asylum seekers/refugees RO to breach of RO by skilled workers. I actually recall responding the other poster (who mentioned refugees) , telling him that refugees were a whole different category that had nothing to do with our current discussion.

As to illegal migration, it's not "illegal migration" per se, but your suggestion ,that [RO] enforcement alone makes LPR stay in US vs PR RO Canada, is what I countered by bringing up an example of how enforcement doesn't work in keeping people out, as long as you have jobs pulling people in. Just as RO enforcement doesn't work when you try to force them to stay in, while there are no jobs for them to be gainfully employed.

If you are unwilling to compare apples to oranges, then stop comparing Canada to the US. I think you are the one who keeps bringing US up as a comparison, as part of your argument that Canada is somehow more lenient and better than the US , and therefore is abused by PRs who can breach RO with impunity. I personally don't think it's proper to make constant comparisons to US, because even if the US was a Hell on Earth it would do nothing to justify wrongdoing of immigration policy makers in Canada. But if you insist on bringing up the US, then I will also counter your points about US, further demonstrating that US job market is superior to Canadian and able retain LPRs without a need to chain their feet or placing a gun to their heads, and treating LPRs as prisoners. Even if US had no RO, I believe few if any current LPRs would leave. Look at our Naturalized Citizens. I don't know any who left the US for good after becoming the US Citizens (I just know couple African immigrants who work from home throughout the year , run their own businesses, and travel to Africa for 2 or 3 months a year, but that's about it). In any event, I am all for ceasing comparisons. Let's focus on Canadian RO instead of US and the issues with it which are evident. Below is from one of my replies above:

The undeniable fact is: Canada does not need 400,000+ skilled immigrants per year, she simply doesn't have that many skilled vacancies waiting for immigrants to fill. Therefore, a lot of PRs who arrived under skilled immigrant category end up driving UBERs or leaving Canada, inevitably finding themselves in a breach of RO.

Question #1: Why bring 400,000+ PRs under "skilled immigrant" category, if jobs to hire them don't exist?

Question#2: Having done above (invited 400K+ skilled immigrants with no matching jobs in Canada), why penalize those who leave Canada while its' economy is in apparent crisis?

 

[canuck78]

Chill dude. I got no issue with Canada’s reasons behind bringing in more immigrants. I am infact favor of immigration. I just stated the obvious. Look at the median income in major Canadian cities and look at the real estate prices. Do you think young native Canadians entering job market have enough wage growth to ever be able to buy decent family house and also pay for life’s necessities. The major portion of Canada’s new wealth generation depend upon real estate which in turn depend upon bringing in more and more new residents and new helicopter money.

About 9% Canadians live outside Canada according to one study. You mean to say all of them are narcissistic and opportunistic? Real opportunists are the people manipulating the real estate market and government assistance programs.
Do you think its moral to take 52% (in ontario) from someone working and making 220k and give them to someone not working, claiming unemployment, child benefits etc, living in a million $ houses?

Do you think its moral to let someone suffer in chronic pain and let them wait for surgeries in the name of equity?

Do you think its moral for government to put people’s parents in a lottery system for Sponsorship when they are clearly meeting fund requirements and can take care of their elderly? Seems like government is only interested in bringing in working people and students to pour in money in economy but barely interested in having those folks bring in their parents.
But I know most older Canadians would infact want this current system as their houses appreciate in value. They seems to overlook how this is impacting young native Canadians who dont even have the option to leave their native country for some other alternatives. 8 young Canadians work for me at my business and I can clearly see how frustrated they are with the economy. While most immigrants either come from very bad economic situation and they are grateful and happy to stay here as they are 100 times better than earlier, some high earners have the option to move out if thing dont work out for them but those young natives are stuck in this skewed economy.

My only point is that government should work more on policies to produce good paying manufacturing jobs, invest in making housing affordable, cut down abuse of social programs and make people work for all the benefits, not just game the system. They should tax based on networth rather than earned income. But they wont do that as it will affect politicians and wealthy.

Do you not think the government is trying to address most of these things already but the answers are not that easy. These issues are affecting almost every country in the G20. The crazy housing market is primarily due to low interest rates and is affecting many countries. Canada can’t just raise interest rates significantly higher than the rest of the world. I do think that Canada should have tightened lending, taxed multiple home ownership differently and cracked down on housing purchases based on foreign income. For example foreign buyers are limited to purchasing new builds in some countries. There should be a lot more of a crackdown on how some people use assignments in real estate and purchasing property in the name of relatives or friends with PRs and citizenships. The should also be more crackdowns on owners claiming no income but living in very expensive homes. There are also issues with people creating illegal boarding houses that are often unsafe.

Immigration is used to balance out our ageing population. Canada allows some parent immigration with access to public services and even retirement payments after 10 years while most countries don’t allow any parent immigration especially with access to healthcare. If parent immigration was guaranteed it would be included in the initial immigration application. Most sponsored parents will never pay taxes and many of the sponsored parents apply for low income senior programs even though there parents are supposed to be financially supporting them. Canada can’t really afford to absorb any extra seniors so the fact that PGP exists is something that people don’t appreciate.

Not saying that tax brackets are not too high but the majority of the money does not go to welfare recipients.

 

[SecularFirst]

Did I mention, for those whose primary target in Canada is economic opportunity, a spoiler alert: Canada may indeed NOT be the place for them.
[/QUOTE]

You do you man. The majority of the immigration is economic immigration. Even the name of the program is economic stream. I know I am playing by the rules, settled down, paying taxes, contributing in the economy and society, doing my part. I just dont agree with few things I see. You dont have to worry about my happiness. I love my job, my staff and love whatever I do. You do whatever you do man. Peace out.

 

[canuck78]

I have no intention to compare asylum seekers/refugees RO to breach of RO by skilled workers. I actually recall responding the other poster (who mentioned refugees) , telling him that refugees were a whole different category that had nothing to do with our current discussion.

As to illegal migration, it's not "illegal migration" per se, but your suggestion ,that [RO] enforcement alone makes LPR stay in US vs PR RO Canada, is what I countered by bringing up an example of how enforcement doesn't work in keeping people out, as long as you have jobs pulling people in. Just as RO enforcement doesn't work when you try to force them to stay in, while there are no jobs for them to be gainfully employed.

If you are unwilling to compare apples to oranges, then stop comparing Canada to the US. I think you are the one who keeps bringing US up as a comparison, as part of your argument that Canada is somehow more lenient and better than the US , and therefore is abused by PRs who can breach RO with impunity. I personally don't think it's proper to make constant comparisons to US, because even if the US was a Hell on Earth it would do nothing to justify wrongdoing of immigration policy makers in Canada. But if you insist on bringing up the US, then I will also counter your points about US, further demonstrating that US job market is superior to Canadian and able retain LPRs without a need to chain their feet or placing a gun to their heads, and treating LPRs as prisoners. Even if US had no RO, I believe few if any current LPRs would leave. Look at our Naturalized Citizens. I don't know any who left the US for good after becoming the US Citizens (I just know couple African immigrants who work from home throughout the year , run their own businesses, and travel to Africa for 2 or 3 months a year, but that's about it). In any event, I am all for ceasing comparisons. Let's focus on Canadian RO instead of US and the issues with it which are evident. Below is from one of my replies above:

The undeniable fact is: Canada does not need 400,000+ skilled immigrants per year, she simply doesn't have that many skilled vacancies waiting for immigrants to fill. Therefore, a lot of PRs who arrived under skilled immigrant category end up driving UBERs or leaving Canada, inevitably finding themselves in a breach of RO.

Question #1: Why bring 400,000+ PRs under "skilled immigrant" category, if jobs to hire them don't exist?

Question#2: Having done above (invited 400K+ skilled immigrants with no matching jobs in Canada), why penalize those who leave Canada while its' economy is in apparent crisis?

You are the one who started the comparison to the US! Not all 400k are skilled immigrants and skilled covers a huge amount of jobs that require minimal education. There is a need for immigrants to fill jobs. There are lots of job vacancies in Canada. The economy is not in crisis. We don’t have very high unemployment rates except in a few sectors that are impacted by covid like tourism so there are plenty of job opportunities in Canada. There can be a mismatch between skills needed and who immigrate and many are unwilling to leave a few big cities where they may have better job opportunities. There are plenty of US citizens who live permanently in other countries. You can’t compare a huge country like the US and Canada. Yes there are better job opportunities in the US in some sectors partially because it is a larger country with more consumers. They also have such a low minimum wage in most states in the US that your labour costs are much lower than in Canada.

 

[jakklondon]

You are the one who started the comparison to the US!

Ok, my bad, let's focus on Canada alone.

Not all 400k are skilled immigrants and skilled covers a huge amount of jobs that require minimal education.

The fact is a lot of PRs , who immigrated as skilled immigrants (under SI category) leave Canada and are in breach of RO. Many others stay in Canada and work in unskilled/menial jobs. They are snubbed and rejected by Canadian employers because they have "no Canadian experience". How is new comer supposed to have "Canadian experience"? How is he ever going to gain one if no one employs him in professional field for "lack of Canadian experience"? Don't you see something wrong with it? Don't you have any empathy for Canadian PRs who get fed up and leave Canada for lack of opportunity in skilled field? Do you deny that this problem exists? Do you still blame their fleeing Canada on weak enforcement of RO?

There is a need for immigrants to fill jobs. There are lots of job vacancies in Canada. The economy is not in crisis.

Then why your employers reject newcomers? Why so many immigrants who came to Canada under "skilled immigrant" category end up working minimum wage paying jobs, driving UBER or working as sales clerks in grocery shops?

We don’t have very high unemployment rates except in a few sectors that are impacted by covid like tourism so there are plenty of job opportunities in Canada.

I don't know what unemployment statistics in Canada are, but long before pandemic your PRs were running from Canada, for lack of job opportunities in professional field, and many others were employed as minimum wage earners/menial/unskilled laborers. You can't deny it, especially in this forum where so many posters are immigrants and have first hand knowledge of what they experience in Canada.

There can be a mismatch between skills needed and who immigrate and many are unwilling to leave a few big cities where they may have better job opportunities. There are plenty of US citizens who live permanently in other countries. You can’t compare a huge country like the US and Canada. Yes there are better job opportunities in the US in some sectors partially because it is a larger country with more consumers. They also have such a low minimum wage in most states in the US that your labour costs are much lower than in Canada.

I thought we don't want to make comparisons to the US. But if you insist on it, it won't end up showing Canada in good light, as far as employment opportunities and breach of RO are concerned.

 

[steaky]

Did I mention, for those whose primary target in Canada is economic opportunity, a spoiler alert: Canada may indeed NOT be the place for them.


You do you man. The majority of the immigration is economic immigration. Even the name of the program is economic stream. I know I am playing by the rules, settled down, paying taxes, contributing in the economy and society, doing my part. I just dont agree with few things I see. You dont have to worry about my happiness. I love my job, my staff and love whatever I do. You do whatever you do man. Peace out.

First, you should requote and then rewrtie what you wanted to say.

 

[dpenabill]

The majority of the immigration is economic immigration.

Many who immigrate to Canada in the economic class do so as a means to get to Canada, to live in Canada. Just because they apply for PR in the economic class does mean economic opportunity was their primary objective. For many far from it. Just the means. Their way to get in.

There is no shortage of expat Americans around here, for example, who came via the economic class, who almost all took income cuts to come here, and there are scores of others likewise, from all over the world.

Some international romances culminating in matrimony result in the Canadian going abroad to live but the key indicators suggest the trend is mostly in the other direction, Canada the preferred destination. Tells the tale.

And of course there appears to be no shortage of those who apply in the economic class but come mostly to get the Canadian passport. Although I suppose most of those are probably focused on personal financial objectives, Canada is merely the stepping stone along their way in that scheme.

By the way, I did not mean the observation, about Canada perhaps not being "the place" for those who's primary objective is economic opportunity, to be pejorative. For many in the world, Canada does offer economic prosperity utterly inaccessible in their home country, and for many more Canada is at least a step or three above home country opportunities.

But for those in the upper echelons looking for a place to maximize personal financial gain, Canada probably is not a good choice. Again, I do not mean this to be pejorative. Just reading the scales.

Quality of life factors (recognizing values in this equation vary considerably and there are reasons other than economic why Canada is not "the place" for some, while it is very emphatically "the place" for many others, me included) loom large even among most of the primary economic class PR applicants, with many if not most focused as much on the quality of life for their family as much as if not more than themselves, very often willing to take a bit of a bite financially to be here (me included).

Otherwise:

. . . the government is trying to address most of these things already but the answers are not that easy. These issues are affecting almost every country in the G20 . . . Canada should have tightened lending, taxed multiple home ownership differently and cracked down on housing purchases based on foreign income.

Not saying that tax brackets are not too high but the majority of the money does not go to welfare recipients.

Yep.

 

[Bloodrose]

This is a bit off topic, so anyone not interested in this discussion please kindly skip.

To Bloodrose: It's not admission that takes a while in the US, it's the sheer volume of arrivals that puts you on waiting line (sometimes for an hour). Border agents have nothing to do with it. If they have 4 boots open and thousands of passengers streaming from the gates, there will be rather long wait to see the border agent. But once you reach them, it's fairly quick process. For me, as a Citizen, it's just "welcome to America, next!" (almost instantaneous admission), but overwhelming majority of non-immigrants spend slightly over 30 seconds at our airport POEs while the officer looks at their documents and stamps their passports. Trust me, I am very anti-bureaucratic and anti-Orwellian, I would speak up and criticize it if I saw it or was aware of it. To the contrary, I started to criticize US for being to lax and letting virtually anyone in since Biden was elected. I think it's a bad policy not to enforce the laws and let anyone in, we will pay high price for in in near future, with increase of crime and security threats, as well as depression of wages in unskilled market. Not good for our country.

As to refugees, you are correct, US doesn't grant them permanent residence at the arrival, they get protected status instead and are allowed to apply for PR after residing here for a year or so (not sure the exact length of time). The reason I kept them out of discussion, is that they (genuine refugees) are fleeing persecution and fear of death, rather than arrive for better job opportunities, and if they are real refugees then it's highly unlikely that they will ever be in breach of RO and go back to their country of origin.

Honestly, the last time I entered the US via the bridge at Niagara Falls, it probably took them 20 minutes to process me along with my partner at the time. We were both from visa exempt countries but neither of us were Canadian and therefore had to be photographed and fingerprinted plus there was the requirement to complete the I94-W form when we got there. Granted, I've travelled there for work on occasion by air since then and the processing time on arrival didn't take as long but at no point has Canada ever photographed or fingerprinted me and I live in Canada as an immigrant.

Canada has an immigration system that can seem very open and welcoming on the surface and that's because in many ways it is. Right now Canada is in the same place the US was maybe 50 years ago. They welcome new people every day and arriving brand new Canadians are as normal at the major airports as short-term visitors and international students. The problem is the labour market just doesn't take the same view. Government services seem to be heaped with multiple layers of bureaucracy and experience in the Canadian workforce is far more highly prized than it really should be in a country where increasing numbers of the population weren't actually born or educated.

There are a few exceptions to this, most notably in the tech sector, but because qualifying for FSW is no longer based on your actual profession, a lot of immigrants arrive only to find that they are essentially unemployable in their chosen field.

 

[canuck78]

Ok, my bad, let's focus on Canada alone.



The fact is a lot of PRs , who immigrated as skilled immigrants (under SI category) leave Canada and are in breach of RO. Many others stay in Canada and work in unskilled/menial jobs. They are snubbed and rejected by Canadian employers because they have "no Canadian experience". How is new comer supposed to have "Canadian experience"? How is he ever going to gain one if no one employs him in professional field for "lack of Canadian experience"? Don't you see something wrong with it? Don't you have any empathy for Canadian PRs who get fed up and leave Canada for lack of opportunity in skilled field? Do you deny that this problem exists? Do you still blame their fleeing Canada on weak enforcement of RO?



Then why your employers reject newcomers? Why so many immigrants who came to Canada under "skilled immigrant" category end up working minimum wage paying jobs, driving UBER or working as sales clerks in grocery shops?



I don't know what unemployment statistics in Canada are, but long before pandemic your PRs were running from Canada, for lack of job opportunities in professional field, and many others were employed as minimum wage earners/menial/unskilled laborers. You can't deny it, especially in this forum where so many posters are immigrants and have first hand knowledge of what they experience in Canada.



I thought we don't want to make comparisons to the US. But if you insist on it, it won't end up showing Canada in good light, as far as employment opportunities and breach of RO are concerned.

Many immigrants to Canada are able to find jobs in their profession. It is far from perfect but it is very different than 10-20 years ago when it was much harder for foreign experience to be recognized. There are a few exceptions like foreign trained physicians but there are good reasons why Canada wants to ensure a foreign trained doctor have the same skills, good medical language skills and knowledge about the Canadian medical system as Canadian doctors. There are certainly very well trained IMGs but also IMGs that do not meet the same standards as a Canadian physician. If an IMG does their research they will know how hard it will be to get licensed in Canada. Even Canadian citizens who attend medical school abroad also struggle to get licensed in Canada except if they studied and did their residency in a few select countries. Unfortunately many do not do adequate research about getting licensed in Canada. I have interacted with many who assume it will be quite easy to get licensed and even when I have highlighted how difficult it will be and suggested other countries that they should consider if they want to immigrate most ignore the advice. Getting licensed as an IMG is probably the most difficult profession when it comes to relicensing but Canada also has programs for IMGs that help them explore other career options. The career options being suggested are not Uber but high skilled professional jobs. Foreign trained professionals have access to so much information to determine whether immigrating to Canada makes sense. Unfortunately some depend on immigration consultants that push lies and are only interested in their fees or they trust family and friends who have read about wait times and doctor shortages and don’t realize that the shortage is primarily a budget issue and a lack of residency spots.


If you look at many immigrants with an education from a reputable school, good work experience, good language and interpersonal skills they have been able to transition into the Canadian job market. Canada is a small country so all the new immigrants wanting to work in investment banking won’t be able to get a job in wealth management at a bank. Many Canadians won’t be able to get a job either because it is a very competitive industry. New immigrants often want to live in a few select cities or areas. Many are not willing to move where the best professional opportunity is located. Many Canadian graduates also have trouble securing a job in their field of study. What people chose to study doesn’t necessarily match up with the skills in demand in Canada. The issue is not limited to immigrants it impacts all workers in Canada. Canada still has work to do when it comes to recognizing foreign credentials but Canada also needs to remain cautious because not all credentials can be trusted and unfortunately there are issues with fake degrees, fake credentials, fraud, etc.

 

[jakklondon]

Honestly, the last time I entered the US via the bridge at Niagara Falls, it probably took them 20 minutes to process me along with my partner at the time. We were both from visa exempt countries but neither of us were Canadian and therefore had to be photographed and fingerprinted plus there was the requirement to complete the I94-W form when we got there. Granted, I've travelled there for work on occasion by air since then and the processing time on arrival didn't take as long but at no point has Canada ever photographed or fingerprinted me and I live in Canada as an immigrant.

I don't like comparisons. Even if the USA was a Hell hole and used sticks to beat to pulp anyone seeking admission, it would do nothing to justify wrong immigration policy by Canada. It really has nothing to do with the subject of our discussion. But if you bring it up, I must say that it's a protocol. anyone seeking admission to the US has to pass through POE, and I-94 for someone falling under visa waiver must be filled out. You could save time by filling it out in advance. They didn't discriminate or mistreat you by asking to submit a form needed to admit you into the US. If you travel by air, you fill out that form before landing and just present at POE.

Canada has an immigration system that can seem very open and welcoming on the surface and that's because in many ways it is. Right now Canada is in the same place the US was maybe 50 years ago. They welcome new people every day and arriving brand new Canadians are as normal at the major airports as short-term visitors and international students.

Again, I am against comparisons, but the US you are thinking of is gone with first decade of XXI century (immediately after 911). Unfortunately, instead of balancing of its' approach, US chose to accept just anyone willing to be admitted and we will pay steep price for it in near future. In any event, US is probably more welcoming now than it should ever be, and no less welcoming than Canada ever was.

But welcoming great mass of migrants is not necessarily good thing for immigrants (let alone natives). What is the point of welcoming anyone on Earth (including security threats) and bringing more people than you can assimilate and provide a job with living wage?

The problem is the labour market just doesn't take the same view. Government services seem to be heaped with multiple layers of bureaucracy and experience in the Canadian workforce is far more highly prized than it really should be in a country where increasing numbers of the population weren't actually born or educated.

There are a few exceptions to this, most notably in the tech sector, but because qualifying for FSW is no longer based on your actual profession, a lot of immigrants arrive only to find that they are essentially unemployable in their chosen field.

This is a big problem, IMHO.

 

[jakklondon]

Many immigrants to Canada are able to find jobs in their profession. It is far from perfect but it is very different than 10-20 years ago when it was much harder for foreign experience to be recognized.

Is that so? I want to hear it from Canadian PRs. You sound like someone who has patriotic sentiments and who would defend Canadian policies the same way a kid at school would defend his brother in a scuffle with other kids, regardless of right or wrong. From what I know, Canada snubs and keeps out the board new comers who lack "Canadian experience". If this has changed drastically in the last 10 years, let Canadian PRs speak up.

If you look at many immigrants with an education from a reputable school, good work experience, good language and interpersonal skills they have been able to transition into the Canadian job market.

I personally know someone who graduated from reputable US University , qualified for Canadian PR and couldn't get as much as an interview for a Canadian job in their field, in which they have American experience. I believe ME and MY EYES a lot more than propaganda and hearsay, sorry.

Canada is a small country so all the new immigrants wanting to work in investment banking won’t be able to get a job in wealth management at a bank. Many Canadians won’t be able to get a job either because it is a very competitive industry. New immigrants often want to live in a few select cities or areas. Many are not willing to move where the best professional opportunity is located. Many Canadian graduates also have trouble securing a job in their field of study. What people chose to study doesn’t necessarily match up with the skills in demand in Canada. The issue is not limited to immigrants it impacts all workers in Canada. Canada still has work to do when it comes to recognizing foreign credentials but Canada also needs to remain cautious because not all credentials can be trusted and unfortunately there are issues with fake degrees, fake credentials, fraud, etc.

You love Canada as a child loves a parent, or your work for Canadian government, I get it. it doesn't negate the facts I have cited above. Unfortunately, no amount of love or loyalty to your country will ever negate the fact that Canada invited disproportionately high number of PRs versus it's needs for skilled labor. As a result, a lot of PRs who came under "skilled immigrant" category couldn't find skilled jobs and were forced to leave Canada and are now in breach of RO (others were forced to stay and sweep streets, drive UBER or work as sales clerks in local grocery stores).

 

[dpenabill]

I believe ME and MY EYES a lot more than propaganda and hearsay, sorry.

Which have been in a country, a country which is [too many applicable derisive expletives to begin listing; one that makes more than a few third world countries more attractive destinations] and is way more different than Canada than many non-Canadians recognize, and a long time from actually even being in Canada. Eyes without recent or relevant actual Canadian experience.

No crystal ball necessary to know you are NOT sorry. Well, OK, yeah, if the conversation allows the ad hominem, probably should be conceded, you do appear to be a sorry sort. Speaking of ad hominem . . .

You love Canada as a child loves a parent, or your work for Canadian government

Yeah, that is classic ad hominem. And juxtaposed with reference to your facts. Might strike some as ironic. Other than a clearly unreliable source of anecdotal "fact" and stories, however, you cite zero credible sources. What one person's eyes see with no recent experience in Canada appears to be the best you got.

Superficially this particular ad hominem of yours aimed at @canuck78 might not appear derogatory, merely dismissive. But its derisive intent is transparent. And as so many not at all woke but all too eager to bear the cancelling woke banner in the country where you live are quick to indict, triggering.

I was a child who did not love his parent nor the country of his birth, both for good reason, meaning for rather bad reasons, even though I gave it a shot (even went back to the country of my birth to care for my father, a very bad man, in his last days). I felt morally bound to do so, to try, even served in that country's military. I was influenced by serious thinkers like Albert Camus who said "one should be able to love one's country and still love justice;" which for me, and what was for a long time my country, is not how it would turn out.

So now "my country" is this country, Canada, and even recognizing all its imperfections, all the problems swirling on and below the surface, no blind faith or jingoist patriotism necessary, I am confident I can indeed love my country and still love justice. Sure, its a tenuous balance. Gets tested here and there, now and then. Life.

Not all immigrants came to Canada to make Canada their country, but many of us did and, for many, more importantly, to make Canada their children's country. A lot of us did indeed leave behind a country, the country of our birth, that did not deserve to be loved. And for many of us that's a painful legacy. So many of us know the difference and understand what is really at stake, recognizing the what and why which builds a foundation for loving one's country. There are TENS of THOUSANDS of us, probably hundreds of thousands, who came from elsewhere who have learned to love this country, Canada, not as a child loves a parent, or as a parent loves a child, but as Canadians who know this is a good place for us (even if not everyone) to live, as a community where we can build a worthwhile life.

My spouse works with many dozens of highly educated professionals from all over the world, who are employed in their field, providing valuable services to this community. I cannot say what percentage of them would prefer to have positions in a larger, more active metropolitan area, or what number among them would prefer positions in the U.S. where their compensation might easily be double what it is here. Apples and cannon-balls.

I cannot explain . . .

I personally know someone who graduated from reputable US University , qualified for Canadian PR and couldn't get as much as an interview for a Canadian job in their field, in which they have American experience.

. . . but it is no surprise that Canadian employers are selective. This really is a rather special place.

As for Facts . . . and citing actual, credible sources, Jody Heymann and Douglas Barthold who are accredited researchers and academics, who have contributed to related studies such as "Analyzing Whether Countries Are Equally Efficient at Improving Longevity for Men and Women" published in the American Journal of Public Health . . . it is a bit dated, so the precise data is not current, but the subsequent literature generally indicates the discrepancy they described has actually increased (but also acknowledging there has been a recent decline in life expectancy, especially in the U.S.), from a newspaper article they wrote around time the study was published (which was in the November 2014 issue):

Here's a fact . . . Canadians live longer than people in the United States. Specifically, women in Canada live an average of 83 years, compared to 80 in the U.S.; men live more than 78 years on average compared to 75 in the United States. Why is this the case? There are clear links between mortality rates and the way countries invest in health care and improving social conditions.​

Life expectancy is of course a mere slice of data, of the facts, in the overall picture of life in this or that country. Health care and social conditions are, nonetheless, huge factors. On these scales Canada is not at the top. But it is not all that far down the list and it is well above the U.S.

I know, it is not fair to compare Canada with the U.S. Comparing quality of life in Canada to that in the U.S. is . . . well, apples and cannon-balls . . . While one cannot ignore the extent to which many in the world desire a share of America's grotesque affluence, even though that is not much shared by a huge portion of its population, but to get a fair sense of the quality of life in Canada it would more informative to compare it to other countries which actually are desirable destinations.

In any event, no need to love this country, Canada, like a child loves a parent. There is no shortage of good reasons for loving this country, and the people who make this their home.

 

[RocketCity]

Welcome back david1697!

 

[dpenabill]

At the risk of belaboring what lurks in the shadows, and notwithstanding an allergy to making confessions, I admit I have been caught off-guard more than a little, rather badly even, by the undertow in those ad hominem remarks alleging @canuck78 is someone who loves Canada like a child loves a parent, even though they were not aimed at me, and even though some sources laud unconditional love (noting though that here the insinuation was clearly meant to be derisive, to describe a love based on not knowing anything else, not knowing better, which I am certain was an utterly unfounded accusation given the extent and substance of contributions by @canuck78 in this forum alone).

It is like many of my life experiences. What has been bad for me has generally not been nearly so bad as so many others have suffered. I hesitate to go there, to where it has been bad for me, because in the final calculation I have had it good, real good. And not the least of the good, I have had the opportunity to come to Canada to stay, to become a citizen. But, yeah, I have been around, and around, and around, and as noted before, according to some here I am a tired old piece of . . . yeah, you know . . . So there have been some, let's say "bumps" along the way. I have endured the loss of a spouse to cancer, a sibling to the debilitating paralysis of long-term abuse culminating in a harsh decline to an early death, one step-child to senseless gun violence and another to cancer, and other family to the opioid menace. I have had my personal medical issues. I have seen and been too close to more trauma than I could have imagined in my youthful idealist days, trauma which if I had anticipated might have been more than I could bear during some the more difficult times back then. While I have my version of PTSD, including flashbacks, it's a mild version compared to what so many suffer, and most of my flashbacks actually evoke more or less pleasing memories, even in regards to the hardest of times (there's a certain amount of comfort and peace that comes with survival). Meanwhile, along the way, I have mostly prospered, personally, and have reached a rather comfortable plateau in life. But for the latter, where I am now, in the only place I have truly embraced as home, I am deeply grateful to a woman who loves me, and to this country, Canada, which allowed her to sponsor me, so I could for certain leave the unpleasant country of my birth and make a life here.

I am all too aware that so many, so very many others, have endured far more than I have, many who have endured far more than I ever could. So when something is painful for me, to bring it up tends to be embarrassing. Reminds me of the time I was in a remote area and a vehicle in front of us pulled away from a stop sign and into the intersection directly in the path of a large and speeding pick-up truck hauling a trailer load of off-road vehicles, and was broadsided. Everyone in both vehicles was very seriously injured. Fortunately an off-duty officer, far from his jurisdiction but coincidentally one with whom I often interacted professionally, was in another vehicle at the scene and he had a radio and was able to call for help (this was well before the days of car phones in ordinary cars, let alone cell phones). I went to the broadsided vehicle to help those in it while he went to those in the truck. Long story getting longer, sorry, the elderly woman passenger in the broad-sided car was clearly dying, crushed between the door and the center console, her door having taken the direct hit. The driver, also elderly, appeared to have only minor injuries. He was complaining vociferously he thought his arm was broken, no apparent concern for the woman dying next to him, who he had in effect killed by pulling away from the stop sign into the path of a speeding truck. I do not ever want to be that guy, whining about a broken arm when people around me are in great physical distress, even dying.

In my previous post I mentioned that casual dig, targeting another but, it seems too obvious, an intentionally provocative slur aimed at any of those who push back against the sometimes relentless disparaging of those of us who have made Canada our home, against us, our government, our civil servants, that it was triggering. I do not mention that lightly. I realize it is way overused, misused, abused.

But in participating in this and other similar forums for more than the last decade, getting to know and feel at least a little about how hard so many have struggled to get here, to stay here, to make this home, and that I am far from the only one here who left a country that did not deserve to be loved, and knowing that that journey has been far more difficult and perilous and painful for so many others, today I have learned that even a hardened, rough-hewn, calloused, too often had it too easy dude like me is not always so resilient as expected. This one has been simmering in me all day.

There's a steady stream of insinuations and provocations and accusations here, some days a virulent flood of disparaging attributions berating Canadians, immigrant and non-immigrant, and plenty of particularly foul accusations aimed at our civil servants. Sometimes some of us push back. Most of the time, as such tripe deserves, most of us focus on more productive discussions.

But this is not right. As I said, a lot of us did indeed leave behind a country, the country of our birth, a country that did not deserve to be loved. And for many of us that's a painful legacy. For too many an incredibly painful legacy. So many of us know the difference and understand what is really at stake, recognizing the what and why which builds a foundation for loving one's country. And many of us feel the pain for family and friends left behind. I realize that it really was not nearly so bad for me as for so many others. I realize I risk appropriating the hardship of others. But I also realize my fingers can sometimes hit the keys in ways that express what others can find difficult to say, what for some may be too difficult or painful to say, but what sometimes really needs to be said.

So, despite an allergy to confessions, I confess, I am among those in need of medication (so far, many decades into it, self-medicating working well enough). I deny the other ad hominem obviously aimed at me.

So yeah, I was triggered. But yeah, sometimes some push back is demanded. Canada is a great country. A lot of good people are here doing their part to make it better. It's a tough haul. I am immensely grateful to be on this ride.