@armoured I am in compliance taking into account the work exception in the law. I've had a number of days where I was out of the country working for my job, so I get to the 730 with work days out of country for a Canadian company. I'm told these are discretionary though. Without the work days, I am not at 730.
Driving to the US with expired PR card
- Thread starter shannon388
- Start date
Trying to figure out or game which crossing is better is (IMO) pointless. (As is, by the way, posting here claiming your situation is 'the same' when it's clearly not - garbage in, garbage out).
Focus your efforts on documenting (ie carry some info with you just in case) what you're claiming.
You are vague about 'number of days' (730 days, i.e. the entirety of the residency obligation is also 'a number'), but if it's a SMALL number of days, I strongly doubt a border officer would want to spend the time on it. You will at any rate get admitted at the border.
The previous poster's information was that they were traveling in and out of Buffalo, driving across the border, and would have an application submitted by the time they crossed. With that information, it is the same situation. I provided more context on the work days as a means of trying to add more color that felt relevant to my question. We don't know the details of the other individual's application, but I felt this community might be able to provide guidance or anecdotal experience of a similar situation regarding the Canadian work days out of country, which, for me, is something like 50, and are an allowed exception, but still discretionary. I wasn't intentionally vague - I just don't know the exact number off-hand.
We are all here trying to get guidance or provide guidance on already stressful situations. I find asking questions if things are unclear cultivates a more welcoming environment. Not everyone is as literate with these topics and, as a result, we don't always share all the necessary/right info or the right level of detail, hence why we come here for help with an already confusing process.
As a side note, I only asked about the crossing because I had a lawyer mention in passing that some locations have more experience dealing with the expired PR process than others, so I was simply just curious - just as I would be if I was looking for a medical facility to treat a certain condition and wanting to go somewhere that has more familiarity with the condition. No gaming going on.
Anyway, thank you for the guidance from everyone above and sharing your own experiences! I will be sure to travel with all my documentation as well.
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No, you provided the information on work days in response to direct questioning about whether you are in compliance:
"@armoured I am in compliance taking into account the work exception in the law."
If you believe that this 'taking into account' is indeed the same, then there is no issue. But it seems you understand, as well as I do, that because the 'exception in the law' is in fact an exception (repeat: you yourself termed it that way), that is or can be subject to judgments by IRCC/CBSA about whether the work travel is of the type that qualifies, it is not the same (in my opinion). And it is not the same as the other poster's in a way that is relevant and potentially important. (Which - for context - is a frighteningly common issue here, that posters ask a question like "I also want to cross the border, same situation, neglect to mention [all those things that are completely different up to and including not set foot in Canada in years and years.]")
The rest of your lamentation seems to be, at heart, about offence you've taken at me pointing that out.
As the internet kids say: "sorry/not sorry." My expression of this may have been more direct than you're used to; feel free to shop around for those who will comment in a way that gets your knickers in less of the proverbial twist. Or, if you prefer, you can interpret this as me putting an important marker down for those who read this thread (and others like it) in future that it is REALLY important to be specific about key, relevant, material facts and not omit them.
Lawyers are almost always a better source of information than a forum like this. When they are providing information and advice and assistance to a PAYING client. Otherwise, well, when dealing with lawyers it can be quite difficult to get what you pay for, rarely if ever more than that . . . so, if it's free, that probably says a lot about what it is worth.
That said . . . sure, seasoned CBSA officers working at major border crossings are likely to be more fully acquainted with a broader range of less common situations. But for a PR carrying an expired PR card (or at least a copy of their CoPR) who is in RO compliance, or even a PR who might be just a little short of being in compliance but who is clearly now settled and living in Canada, who is returning to Canada after a short trip to the U.S., it should not matter. For those in RO compliance, almost certain no problem, worst case scenario (which can happen anyway) is a referral to Secondary where things will be sorted out quite easily and the PR will soon be on their way. For those cutting-it-close and falling a little short, probably the same, small risk of RO-related questions, even smaller risk of encountering RO enforcement proceedings (but of course any PR who is inadmissible has some risk of encountering inadmissibility proceedings).
The nature of such questions, which appear to be asking about which border crossings are likely to be easier, however, is not like getting reviews to compare service providers. It is more like forum shopping. More like asking about when or where it would be easier to get away with this or that. Many of those here focused on helping others, on providing useful information to aid immigrants trying to legitimately navigate the system, are not interested in spending their time assisting those trying to exploit its weaknesses.
Relying on Credit Toward RO for Days Outside Canada In Employ of Canadian Business:
There are several threads in this forum specifically dealing with questions about getting Residency Obligation credit for days outside Canada in the employ of a Canadian business. TOTALLY SEPARATE question, a very different subject, than clarifying that yes, it is correct that a PR does not need a currently valid PR card to enter Canada at a Port-of-Entry on the land border with the U.S. Note, after all, even an inadmissible PR is entitled to enter Canada and will thus be allowed to enter Canada when they seek entry at a land border crossing.
The inadmissible PR might be subject to inadmissibility proceedings upon their arrival at the PoE. They will still be allowed to enter Canada, even if issued a Removal Order at the PoE.
This thread is focused on admissible PRs who are not in possession of a currently valid PR card. For entering Canada at the U.S. border, a PR does NOT need a valid PR card. Best to show the expired PR card, but a copy of their CoPR will work. A Canadian drivers' license can make things go easier. Even just their home country passport, which facilitates positively establishing their identity, and the border officials then being able to confirm the individual's PR status, in GCMS, based on their identity, will work; this might take a little longer while border officials do due diligence in verifying the traveler's identity and status, but once border officials are satisfied the traveler is a PR, permission to enter Canada will be given and the PR will be on their way.
And as noted above, while it might go more smoothly at a major border crossing where seasoned border officials are more likely well-acquainted with such situations and readily know how to handle it, which border crossing it is in particular should have very little impact on how it goes and should NOT pose any risk of being denied entry.
Back to relying on RO credit for working outside Canada . . .
For a PR who has been outside Canada more than 1095 days during the last five years, and who is relying on RO credit for days outside Canada working for a Canadian business, the relevant question, the looming question, is whether they are at risk of inadmissibility proceedings, and if so, the nature and scope of that risk.
This is a way more complicated subject. A lot of other factors can influence how much risk there is of a referral to Secondary and being questioned about RO compliance. Yes, not presenting a valid PR card increases that risk. In contrast, leaving and returning to Canada driving one's own car, a car registered to the PR, should significantly lower the risk. But there are many other factors. As @armoured referenced, the number of days in question can have a big influence. As I have referenced, the extent to which it appears the PR is currently settled and living in Canada can significantly reduce the risk . . . and reduce the risk of the examination going beyond RO enforcement questions into inadmissibility proceedings.
No need to get tangled in all those potential tangents if you are currently settled in Canada, this is a short trip FROM Canada and RETURNING to Canada, and you are close to meeting the RO without counting any credit for days outside Canada in the employ of a Canadian business. Odds are good enough, the risk of inadmissibility proceedings low enough, probably no need to worry. With some exceptions of course.
Otherwise . . . in regards to " . . . guidance or anecdotal experience of a similar situation regarding the Canadian work days out of country, which, for me, is something like 50, and are an allowed exception, but still discretionary . . . "
This exception is not discretionary. A PR is entitled to the credit if they meet the qualifying criteria. HOWEVER, there is more to meeting the qualifying requirements than just working for a Canadian company while abroad. The criteria are quite strictly applied. Getting this credit can be tricky. But that's a different subject. If you want to know more and better understand if you can rely on credit for days outside Canada working for an employer in Canada, and what the risks are, dig through some old topics referring to this in the topic title, and if you still have related questions either pose them in one of those threads or start your own thread.
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Hi @armoured ,@dpenabill , My wife's card has been expired and applied few days back. can she travel to US via Niagara bufflo border? Will there be any issue in returing back?
Hi, this is such a relief to hear! I know it has been said many times on this forum that one can drive in with and expired card, but this is the first time I am reading about someone's first hand experience.
My family and I had been out of Canada for a while and came back when we had just days remaining on our PR card, about 3 years ago. We waited for two years and a month before we applied for my family's PR card renewal at the end of March this year. We got the cards for the children since August but are yet to receive that of my husband and I. We were planning to go to the US for a family gathering this November. I am thinking of flying in to the US and driving back in. Hopefully our re-entry will be as smooth as yours! Your post has given me more confidence to do that.
We were able to speak to someone when we called IRCC a couple of weeks before my kids got their cards. They told us that they are in progress. Since then, we have not been able to speak to anyone. We keep getting the automated response that our application is being reviewed to see if we meet the eligibility criteria but they do not require any additional information from us. I am hoping we get the card by early next week otherwise, we will be driving back from the US.
Please let me know what else I should carry along with me besides the expired card, COPR and maybe drivers license.
Thanks!
CBSA might also ask if you are driving a rental car, so bring your paperworks with you.
Good to know, thanks! I will be sure to carry along the paper work for the rental car. I am assuming it does not matter if it is one way. To make it less tasking on the kids, we intend to all fly in and then hire a car from the US to drive across on our way back.
Was there any follow-up from IRCC based on the questionnaire you submitted when you were questioned about non-compliance with RO? Had you updated your address so that IRCC could contact you if they wanted? How many days over the 730days did you wait before applying for your PR card. I would be slightly reluctant to travel without receiving your PR cards given your interaction about not meeting your RO.
I have not been contacted by IRCC about not meeting my RO and we waited 782 days before applying. I did not feel the need to provide any address update before we applied for the PR card renewal as they have our email address and can contact us if need be.
We applied on the same day with my kids and my kids got their cards over 2 months ago. The wait is killing...
The government tends to contact people by mail and you are required to keep your address updated so there is no guarantee that IRCC hasn’t been trying to contact you which is why I would be reluctant to travel without your PR card in your situation.
But we have since met the RO and my children's PR cards have since been posted. On what grounds would they not want to allow us back in? I want to believe that if they wanted to reach us, upon applying for our PR card renewal, they would let us know that they had been trying to reach us, if they were, and they probably would not have processed my children's PR cards. Just wondering what is going on...
Update:
We decided to cancel our trip to the US and did not drive through any more. Having seen that the processing time has been really fast in the last two months on another thread, we tried calling the IRCC last week. One day, instead of using my husband's ID, we used mine and where somehow able to speak with an agent. She could not explain why our PR cards were not processed yet and told us she would escalate it. We got our PR cards four business days later. It was processed a day after we spoke to an agent.
Thanks for all your help.