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Does hiring a lawyer to handle citizenship application have any negative impact on the application

Elkam123

Member
Jun 2, 2018
18
4
I am getting ready to submit my citizenship application. Everything is pretty much straight forward as I spent all the days in Canada and was fully employed.
The only tricky part is that I plan to leave Canada after submitting my application. So I thought a lawyer might be helpful as all mails and emails will arrive to their office. That way I don't have to go through the hassle of sending the mails to a friend or using a mail service.

My concerns:
1) I was advised that applications with a lawyer representing the applicant get more scrutiny and higher chance of RQ since they feel there must be something fishy here to hire a lawyer for a straight forward application.

2) What if the lawyer missed out the notification or forgets to notify me of test or interview. A lawyer office makes mistakes like everyone makes mistake. But this one will have major impact on my life. Is that possible? and can I check the application status even though a lawyer is representing me?

Any opinions here?
 

ott-613

Hero Member
Dec 16, 2019
377
175
Reading this question just makes me sad. I will not comment any further.

Yes you have the right to leave and live where you want, but shopping citizenship like this cuasing more delay and adding extra queues To the people who are dreaming of the citizenship and wanting to live and die in Canada.
 

O'canada

Hero Member
Oct 21, 2020
374
187
I am getting ready to submit my citizenship application. Everything is pretty much straight forward as I spent all the days in Canada and was fully employed.
The only tricky part is that I plan to leave Canada after submitting my application. So I thought a lawyer might be helpful as all mails and emails will arrive to their office. That way I don't have to go through the hassle of sending the mails to a friend or using a mail service.

My concerns:
1) I was advised that applications with a lawyer representing the applicant get more scrutiny and higher chance of RQ since they feel there must be something fishy here to hire a lawyer for a straight forward application.

2) What if the lawyer missed out the notification or forgets to notify me of test or interview. A lawyer office makes mistakes like everyone makes mistake. But this one will have major impact on my life. Is that possible? and can I check the application status even though a lawyer is representing me?

Any opinions here?
Not really
 

Seym

Champion Member
Nov 6, 2017
1,505
735
Reading this question just makes me sad. I will not comment any further.

Yes you have the right to leave and live where you want, but shopping citizenship like this cuasing more delay and adding extra queues To the people who are dreaming of the citizenship and wanting to live and die in Canada.
OP lived here, at the very least, 3 years of his life, and is not jumping anyone's queue if the application is made truthfully and with all the requirements respected.
There are enough reasons for delays, someone else exercizing his right to apply isn't one. We're not speaking here about fraudulent applicants who come for a week and claim to have been in Canada all these years because a relative or a crooked lawyer used a credit card for them...

As for OP, there may be some additional scrunity over the fact that you're going to live abroad, but having a representative doesn't change much to it. And, at the end of the day, what matters the most is your claim during the application relevant period, not what you do after it.
Go ahead if you feel better about having a lawyer.
 

O'canada

Hero Member
Oct 21, 2020
374
187
OP lived here, at the very least, 3 years of his life, and is not jumping anyone's queue if the application is made truthfully and with all the requirements respected.
There are enough reasons for delays, someone else exercizing his right to apply isn't one. We're not speaking here about fraudulent applicants who come for a week and claim to have been in Canada all these years because a relative or a crooked lawyer used a credit card for them...

As for OP, there may be some additional scrunity over the fact that you're going to live abroad, but having a representative doesn't change much to it. And, at the end of the day, what matters the most is your claim during the application relevant period, not what you do after it.
Go ahead if you feel better about having a lawyer.
But still when you scan your PR cards at the airport they come to know whether OP lived or not during security checks
 

ott-613

Hero Member
Dec 16, 2019
377
175
It is a privilege to live and work in Canada in my opinion, no one should say I lost 3 years of my life and hence shopping for citizenship after that . It is just not right. Anyways , your question is not my problem and will comment no more.
 
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Seym

Champion Member
Nov 6, 2017
1,505
735
But still when you scan your PR cards at the airport they come to know whether OP lived or not during security checks
Not sure about the actual modus operandi, but there have been documented cases of fraudulent applications that had their citizenship stripped because of false residency claims.
Example here :
https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/blatantly-lying-loses-family-its-citizenship-but-earns-them-a-63k-bill-from-canadian-government

Anyway, that's more of a side note... :)

It is a privilege to live and work in Canada in my opinion, no one should say I lost 3 years of my life and hence shopping for citizenship after that . It is just not right. Anyways , your question is not my problem and will comment no more.
You're the only one speaking about "losing" 3 years or "shopping" for citizenship after all.
Law defines what's right here, not your opinion or mine.
I'm not a fan of taking a plane the day after the application is sent, but to each their own, and I'm in no position to tell an applicant whether what he's doing is morally acceptable or not, especially with no insight on their life circumstances.
 

JHT

Star Member
Sep 4, 2020
82
26
we should continue to be taxed on our worldwide income while the government continues to indefinitely not recognize us as citizens even though all requirements have been well met.

and also we shouldn’t dare to ask the government to work responsible and in a timely manner.

we should not dare to think of moving abroad while the government continues to do this.

It’s only morally acceptable for Canadians who were born in Canada as tourists or for those who were born to canadian parents to consider living outside of Canada.
 

ott-613

Hero Member
Dec 16, 2019
377
175
OP lived here, at the very least, 3 years of his life, and is not jumping anyone's queue if the application is made truthfully and with all the requirements respected.
There are enough reasons for delays, someone else exercizing his right to apply isn't one. We're not speaking here about fraudulent applicants who come for a week and claim to have been in Canada all these years because a relative or a crooked lawyer used a credit card for them...

As for OP, there may be some additional scrunity over the fact that you're going to live abroad, but having a representative doesn't change much to it. And, at the end of the day, what matters the most is your claim during the application relevant period, not what you do after it.
Go ahead if you feel better about having a lawyer.
Look at your self in the mirror ‘OP lived here, at the very least, 3 years of his life, and is not jumping anyone's queue if the application is made truthfully and with all the requirements respected.’ 3 years of his life suffering here? What is your point?
 

ott-613

Hero Member
Dec 16, 2019
377
175
Not sure about the actual modus operandi, but there have been documented cases of fraudulent applications that had their citizenship stripped because of false residency claims.
Example here :
https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/blatantly-lying-loses-family-its-citizenship-but-earns-them-a-63k-bill-from-canadian-government

Anyway, that's more of a side note... :)



You're the only one speaking about "losing" 3 years or "shopping" for citizenship after all.
Law defines what's right here, not your opinion or mine.
I'm not a fan of taking a plane the day after the application is sent, but to each their own, and I'm in no position to tell an applicant whether what he's doing is morally acceptable or not, especially with no insight on their life circumstances.
You also dont know anything about their life either. Whatever it is... rich dude buying his way to citizenship or not ... overall it is a privilege to live and work in canada. Period

this conversation is just not right
 
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rajibsam

Hero Member
Jul 29, 2013
497
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Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
I am getting ready to submit my citizenship application. Everything is pretty much straight forward as I spent all the days in Canada and was fully employed.
The only tricky part is that I plan to leave Canada after submitting my application. So I thought a lawyer might be helpful as all mails and emails will arrive to their office. That way I don't have to go through the hassle of sending the mails to a friend or using a mail service.

My concerns:
1) I was advised that applications with a lawyer representing the applicant get more scrutiny and higher chance of RQ since they feel there must be something fishy here to hire a lawyer for a straight forward application.

2) What if the lawyer missed out the notification or forgets to notify me of test or interview. A lawyer office makes mistakes like everyone makes mistake. But this one will have major impact on my life. Is that possible? and can I check the application status even though a lawyer is representing me?

Any opinions here?
you can check status online. mostly communications are through email. I got citizenship and all communications were through emails (AOR, test, oath). But not sure if any other communication (rc, etc) are through email or mail.
 

BOYX

Hero Member
May 5, 2017
436
221
Toronto, ON
You also dont know anything about their life either. Whatever it is... rich dude buying his way to citizenship or not ... overall it is a privilege to live and work in canada. Period

this conversation is just not right
Then don't be part of it. No one asked you to be the Almighty Citizenship of Canada Gatekeeper.

Also you're making some immense leaps of inference simply based on a tiny snippet of OP's life; there are many circumstances as to why someone would have to leave upon getting their citizenship and a great amount of them aren't negative. Why don't you go mind your own business and stop putting your nose into other people's matters?
 
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dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,271
3,028
I am getting ready to submit my citizenship application. Everything is pretty much straight forward as I spent all the days in Canada and was fully employed.
The only tricky part is that I plan to leave Canada after submitting my application. So I thought a lawyer might be helpful as all mails and emails will arrive to their office. That way I don't have to go through the hassle of sending the mails to a friend or using a mail service.

My concerns:
1) I was advised that applications with a lawyer representing the applicant get more scrutiny and higher chance of RQ since they feel there must be something fishy here to hire a lawyer for a straight forward application.

2) What if the lawyer missed out the notification or forgets to notify me of test or interview. A lawyer office makes mistakes like everyone makes mistake. But this one will have major impact on my life. Is that possible? and can I check the application status even though a lawyer is representing me?

Any opinions here?
Regarding (1) . . . As already pointed out, the risk of elevated scrutiny (including non-routine processing) is probably more about the fact of living abroad after applying than about having a lawyer representative.

Regarding (2) . . . living abroad after applying for sure elevates the logistical risks related to missing notices or failing to respond to requests timely, and failing to appear for scheduled events. You appear to be well aware of this risk and it is looking for guidance about how to reduce this risk your queries here have been largely focused on . . . and this would be the primary purpose of hiring a representative.

Yeah, no one is likely to be more motivated to watch for notices from IRCC than you, the applicant. But even the applicant who gets her mail from the mailbox just outside her door, at the address where she lives, has some risk of missing a notice. Should be a very minimal risk. But sure, relying on others increases the risks. How much so depends on who and the circumstances.

For most applicants going forward the good news is it appears that most communication, including notices for scheduled events, is done by email. Others here likely know much better than I how well this is working, how reliable this is.

But to the extent an applicant wants assurances that paper-mail is monitored, yep, again, no one is likely to be more motivated to watch for notices than you. Thus, if you leave Canada after applying, you will be dependent on someone, in one fashion or another, to monitor your mail and to also take appropriate action upon receiving IRCC communications. Failing to forward information in mail to the applicant for just a week or so can result in missing a scheduled event (depending on how quickly the individual can make the trip to Canada).

Designated representatives do not need to be paid-for professionals. It is not necessary to hire an authorized consultant or a lawyer. A trusted family member or friend can be your formal representative.

Someone YOU TRUST is the key. Lawyer or friend. Because yep, you will be relying on them.

In the meantime, anecdotal reports indicate many do this (live abroad while the application is pending) without having a formal representative. And without running into problems. Mail monitored by family or friend without them being a formally designated representative. How they go about this varies. I suspect more than a few engage in some degree of fudging what information is shared with IRCC (particularly as to the address where they live). That seems like taking foolish risks to me, even though many appear to get-away-with-it, since the applicant's credibility looms so large as perhaps the most important risk factor relative to triggering non-routine processing, RQ-related and otherwise.


Some Further Observations:

Efforts to unravel the many threads of RQ-related risk-factors tends to be too speculative to offer much guidance in making decisions like this. Knowing the risk factors may have some influence in a prospective applicant's decision-making, but the more useful role for this information is about being prepared for how things might go.

We know certain factors or circumstances can increase the risk. Applying with a small margin over the minimum presence, for example. Or, as anticipated here, leaving Canada to live abroad after applying. Failing to be complete or otherwise entirely accurate in reporting travel history tends to be a big factor increasing the risk of elevated scrutiny. Certain patterns of travel history or employment history can increase the risk. Appearing to be evasive let alone deceptive can dramatically elevate the risks.

BUT it is near impossible to quantify these risks. And many if not most of the risks are fairly hardwired into the applicant's situation (work and address and travel history are, after all, history), factors which an applicant has little or no ability to change or fix, or which would be rather difficult to change or fix. (That said, applicants would be prudent to (1) apply with a good margin over the minimum, and (2), be as honest, accurate, and complete as possible.)

And even in regards to those factors which an applicant can control, like deciding whether or not to continue living in Canada after applying until the oath has been taken, it is near impossible to forecast what the impact will be. Any applicant can be dragged into RQ-related non-routine processing. Many applicants who leave Canada to live abroad while the application is pending do NOT get RQ-related non-routine processing. More than a few, it appears, do. Attempts to figure the odds, either way, tend to be unavailing, fruitless.

Again, leaving Canada to live abroad after applying for citizenship has risks. Posts and responses in the other topic you started for the purpose of asking about doing this pointed you in the direction of other discussions, some of which address the issue and related aspects in depth. Based on your responses it appears you have read at least some of the other discussions.

Again, some of those risks are logistical. Some are, as discussed above (and discussed in other topics in much more depth), about the risk of RQ-related non-routine processing.

Leading to . . .

How Living Abroad After Applying Might Influence Decision-making:

As referenced above, living abroad after applying tends to increase the risk of elevated scrutiny, thus the risk of RQ-related non-routine processing. There is NO requirement to be living in Canada after applying or at the time citizenship is granted, so there is NO directly negative impact on the application.

There are multiple underlying reasons why living abroad after applying MIGHT raise questions, even suspicions, about whether the applicant actually was IN Canada all the days the applicant reports in the actual physical presence requirement. Some challenge this, but most of those challenges are about what some believe SHOULD be how it works and not so much about how things actually work.

In regards to how things actually work, the criteria IRCC uses to screen for reasons-to-question-residency is confidential, secret, not shared with the public or even with lawyers. So the best we can do is follow anecdotal reporting, research relevant discussions in officially published Federal Court decisions in actual cases, and triangulate based on the law and rules and what we know from the past (last leaked version of the "triage criteria" I know about was way back in 2012, with some information about how the criteria was amended and interpreted in later internal CIC memos obtained in ATI requests). Based on all this, best I can discern is that living abroad is still a significant risk factor but NOT nearly so much so now as it was in the past.

How much influence this has now is very, very difficult to assess.

Leading to observations highlighting negative views about those who APPEAR to be applying-on-the-way-to-the-airport or otherwise APPEAR to be passport-shopping, or seeking a passport-of-convenience.

Historically, applicants perceived to be be applying-on-the-way-to-the-airport or passport-shopping, have been approached with more suspicion. When reasons-to-question-residency were public information, it was clear this was a real factor in whether or not the applicant was issued RQ. This goes back to published criteria under former Liberal governments, not just when the Conservatives were in power. There was even a brief period when provisions in the law provided grounds to outright dismiss the application of any applicant living abroad after applying. This provision was promptly not enforced when the Liberals formed the government in late 2015, and eventually repealed altogether in Bill C-6. But it illustrates, nonetheless, the extent to which there are strong negative sentiments among many Canadians about this, and not just Canadians generally but also among at least some of those employed within IRCC.

Personally I do not wrestle with how-it-should-be in regards to matters like this. Keeping up with how-things-actually-work is enough for me.

Again, it is near impossible to know how much this influences present-day decision-making. Seems obvious it likely still has at least some influence.
 
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Seym

Champion Member
Nov 6, 2017
1,505
735
Look at your self in the mirror ‘OP lived here, at the very least, 3 years of his life, and is not jumping anyone's queue if the application is made truthfully and with all the requirements respected.’ 3 years of his life suffering here? What is your point?
I honestly don't know how you can equate live and lose. Where's the suffering in my post?
I only said so meaning that OP respected the residency requirements, so he's definitely entitled to apply for the citizenship based on the laws of the country.

You're entitled to your opinion regarding leaving Canada right when you get the citizenship, but I'm not sure a thread created by someone asking for practical advice regarding something absolutely legal is the right place to share it...