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Counting days outside Canada towards Citizenship - FullTime PhD Student

aha_1988

Member
Aug 22, 2017
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I am wondering if a PhD student and Permanent Resident, can I count the days I have been outside of Canada to attend conferences as part of my research towards my citizenship?

I saw somewhere that if you are employed by a Canadian business and go on a business trip, those days can be counted towards your citizenship. Based on the definition of a business, I see that a big university (e.g. UBC) is considered a Canadian business. As a PhD student, we also have employee IDs and receive research assistantship from the university. I wonder if this can be considered as "employment" by the Canadian business, and the conference trips can be considered as part of this employment.
 

Bs65

VIP Member
Mar 22, 2016
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The guidance about working abroad is specific to people being assigned abroad on a foreign assignment to a subsidiary of that business for months/years, it only potentially works for the residency obligation days.It does not work for business trips at all

Citizenship days can only be actual physical days in Canada so above does not work..
 
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aha_1988

Member
Aug 22, 2017
16
0
No. Only days inside Canada will count. I can’t imagine we are talking about many days away at conferences.
No, only 40-50 days in total; but, I'm facing a tight schedule and if I could count them towards my citizenship, it would have substantially helped my situation.
 

canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
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No, only 40-50 days in total; but, I'm facing a tight schedule and if I could count them towards my citizenship, it would have substantially helped my situation.
That is a lot of time but still don’t believe you can count them. Tight schedule? The goal of citizenship is to remain in Canada.
 

aha_1988

Member
Aug 22, 2017
16
0
The goal of citizenship is to remain in Canada.
That's quite judgmental of you! Professionals need to accept jobs elsewhere if it is in their best interest. It is as if you believe there is a difference between a Canadian born inside Canada and one who is granted the Canadian citizenship. You allow the former to follow her life goals, and expect the latter to be in "debt" of Canada.
 

Bs65

VIP Member
Mar 22, 2016
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Unfortunately it is what it is and whilst people might have some sympathy with such a scenario citizenship has to be earned and is not a given right, Once someone has citizenship they can do what they want but it does not come for free and if someone really wants the prize they adjust their life accordingly.
 

canuck78

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Jun 18, 2017
52,969
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That's quite judgmental of you! Professionals need to accept jobs elsewhere if it is in their best interest. It is as if you believe there is a difference between a Canadian born inside Canada and one who is granted the Canadian citizenship. You allow the former to follow her life goals, and expect the latter to be in "debt" of Canada.
Not judgemental. If you want to work elsewhere you are free to move to take any jobs. Getting citizenship to only leave is what I object to and hope they bring back the intent to remain in Canada that most Canadians don’t realize exists. Getting citizenship when you have already moved on is just stupid and not sure what Canada was thinking and know that most Canadians have no idea that this is possible. Not selfish for Canadians to want people to remain and contribute to Canada after receiving citizenship or at least not to have already moved on and still be given citizenship.
 

aha_1988

Member
Aug 22, 2017
16
0
Not judgemental. If you want to work elsewhere you are free to move to take any jobs. Getting citizenship to only leave is what I object to and hope they bring back the intent to remain in Canada that most Canadians don’t realize exists. Getting citizenship when you have already moved on is just stupid and not sure what Canada was thinking and know that most Canadians have no idea that this is possible. Not selfish for Canadians to want people to remain and contribute to Canada after receiving citizenship or at least not to have already moved on and still be given citizenship.
A Canadian is a Canadian. Lesson one: you shall never distinguish between a Canadian-born and a new-Canadian. As said, you are discriminating between the former and the latter. Take a step back and read your statement loud.
A Canadian will return home after done with her job abroad; this doesn't mean she has "moved on". And certainly doesn't mean she "owes it to Canada" to refuse a job offer abroad for a certain period of time.

I kindly encourage you to check yourself. Make sure you are not racially and ethnically biased. And maybe be thankful identities remain anonymous here.

Cheers
 

Bs65

VIP Member
Mar 22, 2016
13,190
2,419
Bottom line is that you cannot claim days out of the country towards citizenship, that is the rule end of .

Once you have the qualifying days and have submitted your citizenship application you are free to be outside of Canada as long as you can return for any citizenship process at short notice plus still have to continue to meet the residency obligation of course.

A Canadian is a Canadian whether born or naturalised except the latter has to be earned and is not a right.

To imply someone is being racially or ethnically biased in saying citizenship has to be earned seems a bit of a stretch.
 
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aha_1988

Member
Aug 22, 2017
16
0
Bottom line is that you cannot claim days out of the country towards citizenship, that is the rule end of .
...
To imply someone is being racially or ethnically biased in saying citizenship has to be earned seems a bit of a stretch.
Thanks.
And agreed, it was a tad bit of a stretch.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
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The goal of citizenship is to remain in Canada.
That's quite judgmental
To be clear, as articulated by many officials, including IAD panels and Federal Court justices, even the goal (the explicit purpose) of granting PR itself is so the individual can PERMANENTLY settle and live in Canada. Offering PRs a path to citizenship is a continuation of this.

That may be a judgmental policy. I do not indulge in those sorts of speculation. BUT there is no doubt that is the underlying policy.

The guidance about working abroad is specific to people being assigned abroad on a foreign assignment to a subsidiary of that business for months/years, it only potentially works for the residency obligation days.It does not work for business trips at all
(Recognizing that there is NO working-abroad-for-a-Canadian-business credit toward the citizenship actual presence requirement. )

BUT as to the PR Residency Obligation . . . To be clear, there is NO particular rule governing "business trips," as such, and the working-abroad-for-a-Canadian-business credit toward the PR Residency Obligation.

Whether a "business trip" qualifies for the credit depends on whether the business meets the qualifying elements for a Canadian business (meaning more than just being a business organized in Canada with a location in Canada), and whether the employment relationship qualifies, and whether the employer assigned the employee to engage in the work done abroad (even if that is merely meeting with prospective clients, for example) with an understanding the employee will return to his or her employment IN Canada. Which sounds like a lot of temporary assignments abroad many might label a "business trip." Does not matter if it is for three days or thirty days, so long as it is temporary and so long as the employee remains a full time employee.

Moreover, I have engaged in an extensive effort to locate any credible source for the proposition that business trips will not qualify for the credit, and have found NONE. And I have asked some here who have expressed this proposition to provide some source for it, and NONE have been able to do so. (Cannot recall if you were among those I have previously asked for this).

In particular, there is nothing about being sent abroad for a short "business trip" by a Canadian business that would disqualify that time from counting, from getting the credit, SO LONG AS the particular elements of the credit are met. Indeed, if a PR is employed full time by a qualified Canadian business and is sent abroad BY and on behalf of that business, the time abroad should be given credit notwithstanding describing or labeling those trips as "business trips."

Typically labels have little relevance. What matters are the substantive facts.

There are cases in which PRs have asserted the credit and been denied it for time abroad they described or labeled as business trips, but that is always about either the business itself not qualifying (many of these cases involve a sole proprietorship or small family business, in which the "business" itself does not qualify even if technically the business is incorporated or organized in Canada), or the nature of employment relationship (for example, someone working only on a commission basis will typically not qualify for the credit, among other particular circumstances which will not satisfy the qualifying elements).


I do not know about going abroad to conferences attendant being a research assistant at a Canadian University. That does not appear to something that would qualify . . . noting, in particular, that going abroad for reasons related to one's employment is not the same thing as being "assigned" to go WORK abroad by the business (the latter being one of the necessary elements to qualify for the credit).
 

aha_1988

Member
Aug 22, 2017
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0
(Recognizing that there is NO working-abroad-for-a-Canadian-business credit toward the citizenship actual presence requirement. )
BUT as to the PR Residency Obligation . . . To be clear, there is NO particular rule governing "business trips," as such, and the working-abroad-for-a-Canadian-business credit toward the PR Residency Obligation.
.
Thank you for the thorough response.
Could you elaborate on the above two statements of yours. What do you mean by:
- toward the citizenship,
vs
- toward the PR Residency obligation.

I kind of consider both the same, but from the sentiment of your statements, they seem to be different.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
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Thank you for the thorough response.
Could you elaborate on the above two statements of yours. What do you mean by:
- toward the citizenship,
vs
- toward the PR Residency obligation.

I kind of consider both the same, but from the sentiment of your statements, they seem to be different.
PRs are obligated to be present in Canada at least 730 days in any and every five year time period. They can get credit toward meeting this Residency Obligation for time they are working abroad IF their employment abroad meets the criteria for the working-abroad-for-a-Canadian-business credit.

To qualify for citizenship, a PR must be physically present in Canada at least 1095 days within the five years preceding the day they apply (with a wrinkle for those who were IN Canada prior to becoming PR). There is NO credit toward this requirement for time abroad in the employ of a Canadian business.

The PR Residency Obligation is a totally separate thing from the requirements for citizenship. And, indeed, governed by totally different enactments. The PR Residency Obligation is prescribed in IRPA (Immigration and Refugee Protection Act). Requirements for grant citizenship are prescribed in the Citizenship Act. While citizenship falls under the umbrella of IRCC, the agency or ministry which administers immigration law and policy, it is largely administered independent from immigration matters other than citizenship.

Sure, the relevant time periods (five years) are comparable. Days IN Canada are counted the same way (any part of a day physically IN Canada counts as a day IN Canada). But the PR Residency Obligation can be determined as of any day (but typically is only determined attendant particular events, at a PoE for a PR returning to Canada after lengthy absences; attendant an application for a new PR card; attendant an application for a PR Travel Document for a PR abroad whose PR card has expired or has been lost). Meeting the requirements for citizenship only counts days during the five years immediately prior to the specific date the citizenship application is made.

Failing to meet the requirement for citizenship just means citizenship will not be granted.

Failing to meet the PR Residency Obligation means the PR is inadmissible, and thus is subject to an examination which can result in the loss of PR status. And ultimately deportation.

My observations about "business trips" was not really addressed to you. But was to correct an erroneous proposition commonly repeated here. That is, to clarify that there is no particular rule precluding credit toward the PR Residency Obligation for time abroad on "business trips," so long as the business and employment otherwise meet the criteria for the working-abroad-for-a-Canadian-business credit.
 

keesio

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To qualify for citizenship, a PR must be physically present in Canada at least 1095 days within the five years preceding the day they apply (with a wrinkle for those who were IN Canada prior to becoming PR). There is NO credit toward this requirement for time abroad in the employ of a Canadian business.
I recall one applicant who applied for citizenship trying to claim credit for all the time in the US while working for a Canadian company. He was a truck driver who often hauled a lot of goods across the border. Without counting the days in the US, he was shot by ~60 days or so.He was originally declined but was able to win his appeal as it was deemed that due to the nature of his job, and how often he must drive in the US, it was applicable. I tried digging up the thread but can't seem to find it. But after reading the thread, I always remembered "truck drivers" as one of the very few professions I've seen where the "working abroad for a Canadian company" rule can apply for citizenship RO credit.

But otherwise, you are correct that usually there is no credit in most circumstances.
 
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