There is room for improvement, but the point is that these adaptations are very slow. Leaving applications without any progress in most of 2020 is a big question mark on their ability to adapt to changes in a timely manner. All this delay nowadays is because they didn't continue working on the applications when offices closed.
Citizenship query
- Thread starter footyluv
- Start date
Overall: There is no indication that IRCC will be administering the Oath of citizenship abroad for general adult applicants. Not anytime soon anyway.
Acknowledgements: @Das67 already referenced the key information above, referring to the PDI update July 8, 2021. Not sure why, but the import of that information seems to have been largely ignored in the discussion that followed.
So I elaborate, as I am wont to do.
List of recently updated PDIs is here:
https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/corporate/publications-manuals/operational-bulletins-manuals/updates.html
Program delivery update regarding the oath (references more than just the change in information about administering oath abroad) is here:
https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/corporate/publications-manuals/operational-bulletins-manuals/updates/2021-oath-of-citizenship-updated.html
Current PDI for "Oath of Citizenship," as updated July 8, 2021, is here:
https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/corporate/publications-manuals/operational-bulletins-manuals/canadian-citizenship/ceremony/oath.html
For information specifically about administering the oath outside Canada, in the latter PDI follow link (or scroll) to section titled "Guidelines on location," and then the subsection "Taking the Oath outside of Canada."
SPOILER ALERT: This does NOT provide for administering the oath abroad to Section 5(1) applicants.
I am reminded of the lyrics in a Carly Simon song "You probably think this song is about you." Well, for most citizenship applicants, this song ain't about you.
Additional reference: there are Citizenship Regulations specifically governing the Oath, beginning with Citizenship Regulation 19, here:
https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-93-246/page-2.html#docCont
Citizenship Regulation 20 specifically governs the administration of the Oath "if the person is outside Canada;" that is here:
https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-93-246/page-3.html#docCont
SPOILER ALERT: This likewise does NOT provide for administering the oath abroad to Section 5(1) applicants.
Note-Caveats:
-- Yeah, there tends to be a rather lot of "rereading" the same thing and parsing particular terms, and this does indeed tend to lack insight into what the policies, statutory provisions, regulations, rules, and practices actually involve. Again, the cure is to do the homework, to do the research, to read in context, to avoid parsing terms by referring, instead, to how the various elements apply to one another and work together. No guarantee we can totally figure this or that out, but we can for sure figure out a lot more doing real homework than can be done focusing on an intensive analysis of isolated statements.
-- IRCC is not good updating a lot of its information; this is a common problem with big bureaucracies, but IRCC seems to be on the worse end of the spectrum for this. So, yes, focusing on, let alone relying on, this or that particular statement or piece of information provided by IRCC is rife with pitfalls. This makes doing the homework more difficult, but also much more important. Example: the PDI "Citizenship: COVID-19 program delivery" still says that all knowledge tests, retests and ceremonies have been cancelled. The PDI generally covering the test and interview has not been updated since April 1 and does not at all address online testing abroad. Does not mean we should throw our hands up and speculate. It means to figure things out, as best we can, you need to do more research, dig deeper, and make a concerted effort to put information in context.
-- Post-Covid practices and procedures are on the horizon. Apart from my continuing skepticism about how the testing while abroad affects 5(1) applicants (a tangent I will not wander down here), odds seem high that will not be available indefinitely and perhaps not all that much longer, again to whatever extent it is a viable option now.
Most aspects of citizenship application processing are subject to change, ranging from simple administrative changes in practice which the Minister can make without notice let alone consultation or parliamentary participation, to matters specifically governed by statute which can be changed but that requires the change to go through the full legislative process in Parliament. In-between there can be changes subject to various procedural requirements, including procedures governed by Regulation; changing Regulations is usually among the more complex procedures, typically but not always requiring notice and a period of consultation before the change is adopted and can take effect. All of which is to acknowledge that further changes may be in process, but given how recent this last update was, it would be rather strange to see a change to a procedure governed by Regulation, which administering the Oath abroad is (again, Citizenship Regulation 20), without notice let alone so soon following a formal change.
There is also a "manual" called "Citizenship Program Manual For Service Delivery Abroad," dated July 2020 (that is, a year ago) and available in pdf form by link from the PDI generally governing the Oath of Citizenship (which again is here: https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/corporate/publications-manuals/operational-bulletins-manuals/canadian-citizenship/ceremony/oath.html#administering-oath); this "manual" provides some detail regarding a range of citizenship related matters that includes a section titled "Oath of Citizenship Abroad."
All that said, in contrast it is difficult to confirm what IRCC's actual policies and practices are in regards to administering knowledge tests to applicants abroad, but these are taking place at least to some extent. And even in terms of administering the oath in a virtual context, this is not clearly explained in PDIs and related sources. So, the door is not completely shut and locked on the prospect of oaths being administered to applicants abroad, but it does appear to be shut even if not locked.
But there is a big difference in changing a practice which is totally within the administrative purview of the Minister, which includes the procedure for verifying that applicants have the requisite knowledge of Canada and Canadian citizenship (substance is governed by Citizenship Regulation 15), versus changing practices governed by statute or regulation. A change in practice only involving a change in the Regulations can be done far more quickly than one involving a change in the statute, which requires the full legislative procedure in Parliament, but most (not all) changes in practices governed by Regulation nonetheless require advance notice and a period of consultation (see the Canada Gazette for examples). Generally, again not always, but usually, changes in practices which require a change in the governing Regulation take a significant amount of time to adopt and implement, and moreover, there is simply more resistance to make such changes (does not mean they do not happen, but not so often, not so quickly, and for sure not so easily as administrative changes within the Minister's discretion).
Like testing knowledge of Canada, the Oath of citizenship is governed by substantive Regulation. Unlike testing knowledge of Canada, however, the procedure involved in administering the Oath of citizenship is also governed by Regulation. And this is mandated by statute, Section 24 in the Citizenship Act.
So, I cannot say it would take "a long time," but it is safe to distinguish how changes to the administration of the test have been made from what would undoubtedly be a longer, more complicated, and frankly less likely change in regards to the location for administering the oath abroad.
As noted before, however, the door is not for sure shut and locked. Regulation 22 might be interpreted to give the Minister discretion to administer 5(1) applicants the oath while they are abroad. Given the explicit parameters in Regulation 20, that interpretation seems rather unlikely to me, but I am no expert.
Acknowledgements: @Das67 already referenced the key information above, referring to the PDI update July 8, 2021. Not sure why, but the import of that information seems to have been largely ignored in the discussion that followed.
So I elaborate, as I am wont to do.
The cure is to do the homework. There are PDIs specifically addressing these matters, including recent changes (July 8, 2021) to "information about Foreign Service Officers administering the Oath abroad."
List of recently updated PDIs is here:
https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/corporate/publications-manuals/operational-bulletins-manuals/updates.html
Program delivery update regarding the oath (references more than just the change in information about administering oath abroad) is here:
https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/corporate/publications-manuals/operational-bulletins-manuals/updates/2021-oath-of-citizenship-updated.html
Current PDI for "Oath of Citizenship," as updated July 8, 2021, is here:
https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/corporate/publications-manuals/operational-bulletins-manuals/canadian-citizenship/ceremony/oath.html
For information specifically about administering the oath outside Canada, in the latter PDI follow link (or scroll) to section titled "Guidelines on location," and then the subsection "Taking the Oath outside of Canada."
SPOILER ALERT: This does NOT provide for administering the oath abroad to Section 5(1) applicants.
I am reminded of the lyrics in a Carly Simon song "You probably think this song is about you." Well, for most citizenship applicants, this song ain't about you.
Additional reference: there are Citizenship Regulations specifically governing the Oath, beginning with Citizenship Regulation 19, here:
https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-93-246/page-2.html#docCont
Citizenship Regulation 20 specifically governs the administration of the Oath "if the person is outside Canada;" that is here:
https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-93-246/page-3.html#docCont
SPOILER ALERT: This likewise does NOT provide for administering the oath abroad to Section 5(1) applicants.
Note-Caveats:
-- Yeah, there tends to be a rather lot of "rereading" the same thing and parsing particular terms, and this does indeed tend to lack insight into what the policies, statutory provisions, regulations, rules, and practices actually involve. Again, the cure is to do the homework, to do the research, to read in context, to avoid parsing terms by referring, instead, to how the various elements apply to one another and work together. No guarantee we can totally figure this or that out, but we can for sure figure out a lot more doing real homework than can be done focusing on an intensive analysis of isolated statements.
-- IRCC is not good updating a lot of its information; this is a common problem with big bureaucracies, but IRCC seems to be on the worse end of the spectrum for this. So, yes, focusing on, let alone relying on, this or that particular statement or piece of information provided by IRCC is rife with pitfalls. This makes doing the homework more difficult, but also much more important. Example: the PDI "Citizenship: COVID-19 program delivery" still says that all knowledge tests, retests and ceremonies have been cancelled. The PDI generally covering the test and interview has not been updated since April 1 and does not at all address online testing abroad. Does not mean we should throw our hands up and speculate. It means to figure things out, as best we can, you need to do more research, dig deeper, and make a concerted effort to put information in context.
-- Post-Covid practices and procedures are on the horizon. Apart from my continuing skepticism about how the testing while abroad affects 5(1) applicants (a tangent I will not wander down here), odds seem high that will not be available indefinitely and perhaps not all that much longer, again to whatever extent it is a viable option now.
Well, we know that IRCC updated the applicable program delivery instructions within the last two weeks and made changes to the information regarding taking the Oath outside Canada, and those changes do NOT provide for administering the Oath outside Canada to Section 5(1) applicants.
Most aspects of citizenship application processing are subject to change, ranging from simple administrative changes in practice which the Minister can make without notice let alone consultation or parliamentary participation, to matters specifically governed by statute which can be changed but that requires the change to go through the full legislative process in Parliament. In-between there can be changes subject to various procedural requirements, including procedures governed by Regulation; changing Regulations is usually among the more complex procedures, typically but not always requiring notice and a period of consultation before the change is adopted and can take effect. All of which is to acknowledge that further changes may be in process, but given how recent this last update was, it would be rather strange to see a change to a procedure governed by Regulation, which administering the Oath abroad is (again, Citizenship Regulation 20), without notice let alone so soon following a formal change.
There is also a "manual" called "Citizenship Program Manual For Service Delivery Abroad," dated July 2020 (that is, a year ago) and available in pdf form by link from the PDI generally governing the Oath of Citizenship (which again is here: https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/corporate/publications-manuals/operational-bulletins-manuals/canadian-citizenship/ceremony/oath.html#administering-oath); this "manual" provides some detail regarding a range of citizenship related matters that includes a section titled "Oath of Citizenship Abroad."
All that said, in contrast it is difficult to confirm what IRCC's actual policies and practices are in regards to administering knowledge tests to applicants abroad, but these are taking place at least to some extent. And even in terms of administering the oath in a virtual context, this is not clearly explained in PDIs and related sources. So, the door is not completely shut and locked on the prospect of oaths being administered to applicants abroad, but it does appear to be shut even if not locked.
Not sure how long is "a long time," especially in regards to a process which takes as long as IRCC does in processing grant citizenship applications.
But there is a big difference in changing a practice which is totally within the administrative purview of the Minister, which includes the procedure for verifying that applicants have the requisite knowledge of Canada and Canadian citizenship (substance is governed by Citizenship Regulation 15), versus changing practices governed by statute or regulation. A change in practice only involving a change in the Regulations can be done far more quickly than one involving a change in the statute, which requires the full legislative procedure in Parliament, but most (not all) changes in practices governed by Regulation nonetheless require advance notice and a period of consultation (see the Canada Gazette for examples). Generally, again not always, but usually, changes in practices which require a change in the governing Regulation take a significant amount of time to adopt and implement, and moreover, there is simply more resistance to make such changes (does not mean they do not happen, but not so often, not so quickly, and for sure not so easily as administrative changes within the Minister's discretion).
Like testing knowledge of Canada, the Oath of citizenship is governed by substantive Regulation. Unlike testing knowledge of Canada, however, the procedure involved in administering the Oath of citizenship is also governed by Regulation. And this is mandated by statute, Section 24 in the Citizenship Act.
So, I cannot say it would take "a long time," but it is safe to distinguish how changes to the administration of the test have been made from what would undoubtedly be a longer, more complicated, and frankly less likely change in regards to the location for administering the oath abroad.
As noted before, however, the door is not for sure shut and locked. Regulation 22 might be interpreted to give the Minister discretion to administer 5(1) applicants the oath while they are abroad. Given the explicit parameters in Regulation 20, that interpretation seems rather unlikely to me, but I am no expert.
Thanks all for your inputs.
So it seems to me that
- I can submit my fingerprints abroad (away from Canada)
- I can even take the Test from abroad
But when it comes to taking the Oath , I would have to be in Canada.
I have another question :-
Assuming I am staying abroad and I get an invite to attend and take the Oath Ceremony , Will I be able to just fly in to Canada just for the ceremony , finish taking the oath and fly back abroad immediately (say after 1-2 days )?
I will of course make sure my PR is still valid to enter Canada but I am foreseeing a situation where I would continue to live outside Canada next couple of years or so (but yet maintaining my PR status).
So I am wondering if I can technically still be "living" abroad and fly to Canada from country X just to attend the ceremony and leave immediately after to country X. Will I be able to even process applying for Canada passport from abroad?
Can anyone confirm the above?
Much appreciated!
Thanks
So it seems to me that
- I can submit my fingerprints abroad (away from Canada)
- I can even take the Test from abroad
But when it comes to taking the Oath , I would have to be in Canada.
I have another question :-
Assuming I am staying abroad and I get an invite to attend and take the Oath Ceremony , Will I be able to just fly in to Canada just for the ceremony , finish taking the oath and fly back abroad immediately (say after 1-2 days )?
I will of course make sure my PR is still valid to enter Canada but I am foreseeing a situation where I would continue to live outside Canada next couple of years or so (but yet maintaining my PR status).
So I am wondering if I can technically still be "living" abroad and fly to Canada from country X just to attend the ceremony and leave immediately after to country X. Will I be able to even process applying for Canada passport from abroad?
Can anyone confirm the above?
Much appreciated!
Thanks
Yes, you can fly to Canada, complete oath and fly back in a couple of days.
However, I would recommend that you take oath, wait until you receive your citizenship certificate and then leave Canada. Even better, wait for the certificate, apply for passport urgently (you'll receive the passport in 2 business days if your urgent request is approved) and then leave Canada.
You can expedite the shipping of your citizenship certificate by requesting the clerk after the oath ceremony. Tell them you have urgent travel and provide them with proof such as airline tickets. You'll probably receive the certificate within 4 business days depending on your local office and where you are located (if it is expedited).
The reason being you need the original Canadian citizenship certificate to apply for a passport and without a Canadian passport, you can't come back to Canada.
If you have someone in Canada who can collect the certificate (certificates are mailed), you can ask them to collect it and mail it to you using a secured and trackable courier. I wouldn't consider this as my first option - if this courier gets lost, you'll have to apply for proof of Citizenship again which could take about a year and a half. This should only be used as the very last resort IMO.
Thank you so much Rajkamal for the clarification!
And thank you for pointing that it's better to wait until I receive the citizenship certificate and then leave Canada.
I think I can plan to stay in Canada for a week or 2 to receive it and then leave.
This gets me to my next question on the Canada address - since my permanent address would be abroad at the time of taking oath, can I give my temporary local Canadian address(could be a hotel/airbnb/friend's place where I may be staying)?
And once I receive the original citizenship certificate, can I apply for the Canada passport from a Canada consulate abroad and receive my passport to my abroad home address?
That would be tricky because I've heard at least one case where changing address at the time of oath ceremony (or a few days before oath) has greatly delayed the delivery time of citizenship certificate.
What I'd do in a similar situation is leave the address on file as-is (do NOT change the address) and subscribe to mail-forwarding service from Canada post and provide a friend's address. The advantage of doing this is even if your citizenship certificate is delayed, it will go to your friend's address and your friend can collect it and then courier it to you if need be.
Once you have the original citizenship certificate, you can apply for a Canadian passport abroad, yes. Again, personally, if I had at least 2 weeks to spare, I would request the clerk to expedite the citizenship certificate delivery, receive the certificate, apply for Urgent passport and then fly out of Canada. It would be very convenient if you get all this sorted out before you move long-term outside the country.
These are just my opinions - See what suits your situation and do it accordingly.
Good luck!