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Citizenship eligibility issue while working full time in US / weekend commutes?

geektech40

Full Member
Sep 19, 2018
31
1
Has anyone does this,

Say if I am a US Citizen, have canadian PR go every weekend plus Mondays so Fri - Mon counted 4 days in Canada, plus annual work vacation (around 15-16 days) and US Public holidays etc , meet the physical presence days > 1095.Would IRCC refuse , assuming you filed taxes in both US and Canada?

Is this doable?
 

badar14

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May 5, 2012
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Has anyone does this,

Say if I am a US Citizen, have canadian PR go every weekend plus Mondays so Fri - Mon counted 4 days in Canada, plus annual work vacation (around 15-16 days) and US Public holidays etc , meet the physical presence days > 1095.Would IRCC refuse , assuming you filed taxes in both US and Canada?

Is this doable?
You have to put all your absences in physical presence calculator to figure out exact dates.

https://eservices.cic.gc.ca/rescalc/resCalcStartNew.do

To be eligible for Canadian citizenship, you must have been physically present in Canada for at least 1,095 days in the five years immediately before the date of your application. We encourage applicants to apply with more than the minimum requirement of 1,095 days of physical presence, to account for any miscalculations of absences, or any other aspect that could lower the physical presence total below 1,095 days. Please note that you cannot meet the physical presence requirement without a minimum of two (2) years as a permanent resident.

When calculating your time in Canada:

  • only the five (5) years immediately before the date of your application are taken into account;
  • each day you were physically present in Canada as an authorized temporary resident or protected person before you became a permanent resident counts as half a day (up to a maximum of 365 days);
  • each day you were physically present in Canada after you became a permanent resident counts as one day;

As long as taxes are filed you are good on that side.

Good Luck
 

zardoz

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Feb 2, 2013
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Has anyone does this,

Say if I am a US Citizen, have canadian PR go every weekend plus Mondays so Fri - Mon counted 4 days in Canada, plus annual work vacation (around 15-16 days) and US Public holidays etc , meet the physical presence days > 1095.Would IRCC refuse , assuming you filed taxes in both US and Canada?

Is this doable?
If you meet or exceed the physical presence requirements, it's doable. However, the chances of it being a smooth application are not looking so good. You should prepare yourself for the possibility of a full Residency Questionnaire, which isn't much fun.
 

geektech40

Full Member
Sep 19, 2018
31
1
Thank you both for responding, If i do this and file taxes but fully reside in US, have rental / home in US , US plated vehicles, US health insurance, kids in US school.Domicile is US, maybe have a bank account or two in CAN.Can they deny saying your real residence / abode is US you are just using CAN PR to keep coming.

Assuming I only rent and not have a mortgage / job / kids in School in CAN or work in CAN?

I understand the new rules are solely 1095 Physical presence, ofcourse I will keep log records of absence but can the CJ still deny after meeting the 1095+ days saying you dont really seem like you are 'settled' here but in US?
 

zardoz

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Feb 2, 2013
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Thank you both for responding, If i do this and file taxes but fully reside in US, have rental / home in US , US plated vehicles, US health insurance, kids in US school.Domicile is US, maybe have a bank account or two in CAN.Can they deny saying your real residence / abode is US you are just using CAN PR to keep coming.

Assuming I only rent and not have a mortgage / job / kids in School in CAN or work in CAN?

I understand the new rules are solely 1095 Physical presence, ofcourse I will keep log records of absence but can the CJ still deny after meeting the 1095+ days saying you dont really seem like you are 'settled' here but in US?
Essentially, no. If you meet the strict legal requirements, the personal opinion of the citizenship officer/judge of your lifestyle is not a factor. They can have you go through hoops to prove that you do in fact meet those requirements, and the burden of proof is yours.
 

geektech40

Full Member
Sep 19, 2018
31
1
So technically even if i just stay in motels / hotel / extended stay during weekend and come back to USA for the whole week work/ the CJ cannot legally deny.

I get it that the whole process could take longer (than usual) to get canadian passport, but since I already have US citizenship I am in no rush to get the passport. just nice to have.

Maybe the CJ will be lenient if i tell him i dont like the wayy the current US political climate is ;) and wanna move there LOL...

Good to know!
 

geektech40

Full Member
Sep 19, 2018
31
1
I also looked at RQ form CITI 0171, man if i was living / working in USA and only staying Fri - Mon in CAN, how would i fill all those entries in such a small space would need hundreds of extra pages.

also wonder if the CJ would be bit lenient if it was US citizen working in US vs say a H1b or temporary worker in US with canadian PR ...assuming requirements are met per current rules.

o_O
 

dpenabill

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Apr 2, 2010
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Say if I am a US Citizen, have canadian PR go every weekend plus Mondays so Fri - Mon counted 4 days in Canada, plus annual work vacation (around 15-16 days) and US Public holidays etc , meet the physical presence days > 1095.Would IRCC refuse , assuming you filed taxes in both US and Canada?

Is this doable?
Thank you both for responding, If i do this and file taxes but fully reside in US, have rental / home in US , US plated vehicles, US health insurance, kids in US school.Domicile is US, maybe have a bank account or two in CAN.Can they deny saying your real residence / abode is US you are just using CAN PR to keep coming.

Assuming I only rent and not have a mortgage / job / kids in School in CAN or work in CAN?

I understand the new rules are solely 1095 Physical presence, ofcourse I will keep log records of absence but can the CJ still deny after meeting the 1095+ days saying you dont really seem like you are 'settled' here but in US?
The burden of proof is on the applicant. If all your primary ties are in the U.S., how do you prove what days you were in Canada? Sure, each day you cross the border should be readily documented, but if you are crossing the border two days a week that will not add up to 1095 days in five years, not even close. In fact, four days a week will NOT add up to 1095 days in five years. Not even close.

Add in holidays and some vacation time? Really? That is, assuming you can sufficiently prove all days you were in Canada, and you are in Canada from Friday to Monday every week, for 260 straight weeks, plus another 12 days a year, that just gets you to 1100 days. BUT frankly, when all your primary ties are in the U.S., that is a rather far-fetched scenario. Or, more to the point, it is a scenario regarding which a REASONABLE decision-maker is likely to QUESTION whether all those days were actually spent in Canada, and it does not take a whole lot of doubt to conclude it is possible the applicant was not in Canada for six or more of the days claimed, which would leave even the 4/week plus 12/year claim SHORT, application denied. Considering after all, the applicant's primary residence, immediate family, job, and so on, are all ABROAD (not in Canada), strongly suggesting the REASONABLENESS of INFERRING that any day not for certain proven to have been in Canada, was more likely ABROAD with family or at work.

As @zardoz observed, the scenario described is at risk (more like very high risk) for full-blown RQ, and it appears all the key information you will need to submit in response to the RQ will document a life being lived in the U.S., not Canada. In which event you could be required to affirmatively prove exactly which days you were physically present in Canada. Little or no benefit of an inference you were in Canada days between a known date of entry and next reported date of exit. (Almost all applicants benefit from the latter inference. Without such an INFERENCE it can be very, very difficult to actually prove presence on a given day.)

To be clear, IRCC or a Citizenship Judge do not have to justify a negative decision beyond specifying why they do not believe the applicant's account.

All this is without mentioning the influence appearing to be gaming-the-system will have. And this scenario rather obviously shouts gaming-the-system . . . which, for anyone having difficulty understanding the import of this, tends to raise a lot of suspicion of fraud. Can IRCC prove fraud? Does NOT matter. (But if it can, and in this scenario any discrepancy in fact is more likely to be deemed deliberate, thus misrepresentation, thus grounds for rather severe consequences.) IRCC does not have to prove fraud; to deny the application IRCC only has to have sufficient doubt about the applicant's case to conclude the applicant has not met the burden of proof. Betting on a sympathetic Citizenship Judge to reach a contrary, favourable conclusion? Good luck with that. A year and a half or more after applying.

Note, after all, a PR living in the U.S. near an easily crossed PoE such as in Niagara Falls, could conceivably just do a daily run for exercise across the border, jogging over the Rainbow Bridge, go through the PoE, circle by the Casino and drop a few coins in the slots, jog back across the Rainbow Bridge. Five times a week adds up to a good regular workout and in five years adds up to over 1200 days presence in Canada. And there is the border crossing every day to actually show presence in Canada all those days.

Technically . . . sure.

Realistically? Practically? The slots are probably a better bet.
 
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geektech40

Full Member
Sep 19, 2018
31
1
The burden of proof is on the applicant. If all your primary ties are in the U.S., how do you prove what days you were in Canada? Sure, each day you cross the border should be readily documented, but if you are crossing the border two days a week that will not add up to 1095 days in five years, not even close. In fact, four days a week will NOT add up to 1095 days in five years. Not even close.

Add in holidays and some vacation time? Really? That is, assuming you can sufficiently prove all days you were in Canada, and you are in Canada from Friday to Monday every week, for 260 straight weeks, plus another 12 days a year, that just gets you to 1100 days. BUT frankly, when all your primary ties are in the U.S., that is a rather far-fetched scenario. Or, more to the point, it is a scenario regarding which a REASONABLE decision-maker is likely to QUESTION whether all those days were actually spent in Canada, and it does not take a whole lot of doubt to conclude it is possible the applicant was not in Canada for six or more of the days claimed, which would leave even the 4/week plus 12/year claim SHORT, application denied. Considering after all, the applicant's primary residence, immediate family, job, and so on, are all ABROAD (not in Canada), strongly suggesting the REASONABLENESS of INFERRING that any day not for certain proven to have been in Canada, was more likely ABROAD with family or at work.

As @zardoz observed, the scenario described is at risk (more like very high risk) for full-blown RQ, and it appears all the key information you will need to submit in response to the RQ will document a life being lived in the U.S., not Canada. In which event you could be required to affirmatively prove exactly which days you were physically present in Canada. Little or no benefit of an inference you were in Canada days between a known date of entry and next reported date of exit. (Almost all applicants benefit from the latter inference. Without such an INFERENCE it can be very, very difficult to actually prove presence on a given day.)

To be clear, IRCC or a Citizenship Judge do not have to justify a negative decision beyond specifying why they do not believe the applicant's account.

All this is without mentioning the influence appearing to be gaming-the-system will have. And this scenario rather obviously shouts gaming-the-system . . . which, for anyone having difficulty understanding the import of this, tends to raise a lot of suspicion of fraud. Can IRCC prove fraud? Does NOT matter. (But if it can, and in this scenario any discrepancy in fact is more likely to be deemed deliberate, thus misrepresentation, thus grounds for rather severe consequences.) IRCC does not have to prove fraud; to deny the application IRCC only has to have sufficient doubt about the applicant's case to conclude the applicant has not met the burden of proof. Betting on a sympathetic Citizenship Judge to reach a contrary, favourable conclusion? Good luck with that. A year and a half or more after applying.

Note, after all, a PR living in the U.S. near an easily crossed PoE such as in Niagara Falls, could conceivably just do a daily run for exercise across the border, jogging over the Rainbow Bridge, go through the PoE, circle by the Casino and drop a few coins in the slots, jog back across the Rainbow Bridge. Five times a week adds up to a good regular workout and in five years adds up to over 1200 days presence in Canada. And there is the border crossing every day to actually show presence in Canada all those days.

Technically . . . sure.

Realistically? Practically? The slots are probably a better bet.
Thank you for a detailed response.I will elaborate a bit more on the math so its little clear, I agree its not easy but trying to see if its possible keepign the job here while acheiving this feat within the legal realm.

Fri - Monday is 4 days, a week that is around 16 days a month.Not including US federal holidays.

Vacation is around 15-20 days a year, if taken in such a way that it overlaps memorial, us independence day etc you can get almost a week.

I did rough calculation say for 2018 - just using weekends (fri to monday) i get the days

Jan - 17
Feb - 16
Mar - 18
Apr - 18
May - 16
Jun - 18
Jul - 19
Aug - 17
Sep - 19
Oct - 17
Nov - 19
Dec - 18

Total: 17+16+18+18+16+18+19+17+19+17+19+18 - 212 days in 2018

Note I am not a PR, so assuming 212 days per year times 5 is 1060 its falling short, if you add vacation for each year it crosses the 1095 easily.

ITs not about gaming-the-system, the new rule has no intent to reside.If you file as a dual US / CAN resident you actually pay MORE taxes.US taxes are lower than CAN.Someone trying to acheive this feat is paying more $$$ to actually become a citizen, and through the current rules.

Days can be proven wtih FOIA / CBSA / CBP

How is this FRAUD?
 

geektech40

Full Member
Sep 19, 2018
31
1
also to quote this:

To be clear, IRCC or a Citizenship Judge do not have to justify a negative decision beyond specifying why they do not believe the applicant's account.

Let me ask you in reverse, how can they Disprove the physical presence if CBP / CBSA records concur with what I put in the forms? I mean the days actually present in canada?
 

YVR123

Champion Member
Jul 27, 2017
1,671
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ITs not about gaming-the-system, the new rule has no intent to reside.If you file as a dual US / CAN resident you actually pay MORE taxes.US taxes are lower than CAN.Someone trying to acheive this feat is paying more $$$ to actually become a citizen, and through the current rules.

Days can be proven wtih FOIA / CBSA / CBP

How is this FRAUD?
The part I don't get is how are you paying more tax? If you find a job in Canada with the same pay, you will be paying the same amount of tax to Canada. How is that more?

And I hope you have out of states health coverage from your US employer. The chance of you being covered by any provincial health is slim.
Btw. Hopefully you live and work very close to the border. The weekly trips sound very stressful.
 

geektech40

Full Member
Sep 19, 2018
31
1
The part I don't get is how are you paying more tax? If you find a job in Canada with the same pay, you will be paying the same amount of tax to Canada. How is that more?

And I hope you have out of states health coverage from your US employer. The chance of you being covered by any provincial health is slim.
Btw. Hopefully you live and work very close to the border. The weekly trips sound very stressful.
That's because I am saying I will work and file US taxes and even though have no Canada income will pay taxes to Canada on the us source income even though I make noncanno income Canadian income taxes are hogg
 

YVR123

Champion Member
Jul 27, 2017
1,671
483
That's because I am saying I will work and file US taxes and even though have no Canada income will pay taxes to Canada on the us source income even though I make noncanno income Canadian income taxes are hogg
If you file tax for both US and Canada, you are only paying the difference to Canada. You are not paying the full amount for BOTH countries.
If you are a tax resident of Canada (which you likely want to be because that's part of the information you need to show when you apply for citizenship), you need to report your income regardless of where you earn it.

btw. for US citizen, you need to pay tax on ANY income from anywhere in the world regardless of where you live. (For Canadian, you have the option to deem non-resident and not have to pay tax if you don't live in Canada any more)
 
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zardoz

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Feb 2, 2013
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If we were to take this reductio ad absurdum, you could arrange to present yourself at a police station every day that you are on Canadian soil in order to establish beyond any doubt your physical presence. Not sure that's practical however. ;)
 

Bs65

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Mar 22, 2016
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Whilst seems in theory this is doable, making a 5 year commitment to travel EVERY single weekend over a 5 year period seems like a pretty big deal and just missing a few weekends or failing to keep ALL the in/out proof in that 5 year period could mess up the whole plan for nothing. Plus as someone also mentioned maybe the OP should also check their health coverage whilst visiting for the weekends for 5 years.

But hey if the OP is so desperate to go this extreme to apply for citizenship then good luck and maybe if this forum is still going in 5/6 years time they will come back and put us doubters in our place.