citizenship by convenience

[torontosm]

1. Once someone gets Canadian citizenship, the Charter guarantees him or her mobility rights- you cannot ban people from leaving the country once they are citizens. If the government actually stopped whining about this and provided decent jobs for people many will not consider leaving. You can tell from the tone of the MP "Canada is the best country in the word blah blah blah" that the Tories are simply arrogant and have turned Canada into a much hated country when at one time it was in fact loved by many across the world. Most people leave because they want better job opportunities elsewhere.
2. Someone suggested banning dual citizenship- why? Most developed countries allow it as they are much more secure than this Tory MP in knowing they are great countries.
We live in a globalised world as Asaif said and some people will stay and some will leave. Personally, I got my citizenship and like my life here. I've paid into the system in spite of not having a permanent job (I did consultancy work), paying higher taxes than most people, never claimed anything from the government, abided by the rules, and even volunteered in my community. Now that my contracts have expired, I would love to keep living here and I'm applying, but if I don't get a job in say 12 months, and managed to get an offer from overseas, why should I refuse it??? Makes absolutely no sense and that's why C24 is hopefully going to be repealed.
Having said that, the more outrageous issue in my opinion is birthright citizenship, which most developed countries have abolished years ago and yet Canada and the US continue to practice. This is a problem.

You really do need to go back and read the provisions of C24 before commenting on it. Nothing in C24 prevents you from leaving CAnada once you become a citizen. The intent to reside clause only applies between the application and the oath, and not any time after that.

Canadians are indeed free to leave whenever they want. If you don't want to live in Canada, that is your right. But then should your countrymen be forced to support you and your families forever? Should I have to pay for your kids education when you have only lived in this country for 3 or 4 years, and your kids never have? how long can this go on for?

I ask anyone on this forum criticizing my views this....if you could lower your taxes and save tens of thousands a year by eliminating citizens of convenience, wouldn't you want to do so? No one in their right mind would say no to this unless they had every intention of doing the same thing themselves down the line.

 

[torontosm]

Very convenient for you to say behind your keyboard- until a situation develops when you have to leave Canada (or your loved ones) for a while. Let's see what you think then.

Canada's financial state is the result of incompetent politicians mismanging the economy over soooo many years. I know since I used to work for the government (I'm an economist btw). Whilst I'd argue that there are many other problems facing the economy: corruption (a big one), low productivity, excessive reliance on oil and the US economy, insular financial practices, even the one you're presenting (health bills of people out of the country for too long) can simply be addressed by saying that non-residents cannot be entitled to public healthcare and would have to finance their healthcare privately. Now this would enter a grey area legally but depending on how it's constructed a solution can be achieved.

Citizenship-based taxation is one of the most Orwellian ideas ever, and it's no wonder that only the US and Eritrea do it. I hope Canada doesn't follow suit and am pretty certain it won't anytime soon- many rich Canadians who live overseas and are well-connected politically won't allow it anyway .

I have lived overseas, and returned to Canada. And I too am a financial professional well versed in the workings of the economy. Yes, you are correct that there are other problems. However, you can't deny that overseas citizens who don't contribute to an economy, and yet avail benefits at will, further hurt our economic situation.

Go to some of the threads on this forum and you will read about families who got their PR in the 90's, never fulfilled their residency obligations and now their kids are trying to reclaim their PR in order to avail lower university fees when they finally return to Canada, decades later. Does that make sense? Is that fair? Are you happy to be subsidizing their education? I'm not.

As for global taxation, do you see any other way to make the system fair? If so, please share. Because right now, the system is corrupt and imbalanced and if it persists, Canada will be left with a bunch of hungry mouths and outstretched hands and no one to feed them because all the contributors have grown weary of the burden and have left Canada. But i guess that is exactly the Canada that the Liberal party wants.

 

[torontosm]

I find it funny how some immigrants (even in this forum) act "tough" and "right wing" on this issue. Capital H hypocrites- stop worrying about other people and focus on your own lives.

This is a laughable statement. Just because I'm an immigrant means that I have to support the Liberals in perpetuity? In your eyes, at what point have I satisfied my immigrant obligations and am I able to make my own choices about what's best for Canada? After living here for 10 years? 20?

Let me turn the tables on you. Based on your own timeline, you received your PR under the Conservative government. Are you a Con for life? Are you a hypocrite for not blindly following their policies?

Grow up. This is Canada. We are free to support and believe whatever we want. And, it is our right and obligation to get involved in the political process to try and better this country. And I don't need you, or anyone else, to tell me that I am wrong for doing so. If everyone else in Canada stuck their heads in the sand and "focused on their own lives" as you suggest, the country wouldn't ever progress. But I suppose you wouldn't care because you are just here to get the passport and run anyway.

 

[Politren]

torontosm if you look around you will realise that those who are born here and do the same thing are bigger number. Does that means that you are happy to feed those people too, or just because those are born here they are superior and therefore again the focus is only on those Canadians born abroad?

 

[torontosm]

torontosm if you look around you will realise that those who are born here and do the same thing are bigger number. Does that means that you are happy to feed those people too, or just because those are born here they are superior and therefore again the focus is only on those Canadians born abroad?

I don't distinguish between born and naturalized citizens. I think anyone who spends the vast majority of their time outside of Canada without contributing to the system shouldn't be allowed to just show up and expect the same benefits as those Canadians who have spent their time and money building this country.

If you look at the system in the U.S., Americans can't just show up and attend public universities on "in-state tuition" rates. Rather, they have to first establish residency in that state, prove that they are living and contributing and then eventually they are eligible for those rates. Why can't we do the same here? If you want to live abroad, by all means do...however, when your kids show up for university, they are treated like international students for at least a certain period of time.

 

[Politren]

I don't distinguish between born and naturalized citizens. I think anyone who spends the vast majority of their time outside of Canada without contributing to the system shouldn't be allowed to just show up and expect the same benefits as those Canadians who have spent their time and money building this country.

If you look at the system in the U.S., Americans can't just show up and attend public universities on "in-state tuition" rates. Rather, they have to first establish residency in that state, prove that they are living and contributing and then eventually they are eligible for those rates. Why can't we do the same here? If you want to live abroad, by all means do...however, when your kids show up for university, they are treated like international students for at least a certain period of time.

It is kind a weird for you as a person who have lived here long enough to have such a high expectations from Canada , when we see on a daily basis how a person who have been all the time abroad can fabricate residency prove and prove that he/she have been all the time here.
CIC as a federal agency keep on tolerate this by letting those people to just show some fabricated docs and voala citizenship granted.

What I mean is that I have seen how easy is to fabricate documents showing "prove" that those peoples have been always here while actually they were all the time abroad.

So you keep on having such high expectations from Canada when we see that Canada fundamentally supports such malfunction.

The same residency "proves" are working perfectly for universities and to use the health system.

 

[torontosm]

It is kind a weird for you as a person who have lived here long enough to have such a high expectations from Canada , when we see on a daily basis how a person who have been all the time abroad can fabricate residency prove and prove that he/she have been all the time here.
CIC as a federal agency keep on tolerate this by letting those people to just show some fabricated docs and voala citizenship granted.

What I mean is that I have seen how easy is to fabricate documents showing "prove" that those peoples have been always here while actually they were all the time abroad.

So you keep on having such high expectations from Canada when we see that Canada fundamentally supports such malfunction.

The same residency "proves" are working perfectly for universities and to use the health system.

I have high expectations for Canada because I believe in the country. Yes, there are certainly flaws, but I saw the previous government trying to close the existing loopholes. What infuriates me now is that I see the new government trying to undo all of those changes for no reason other than they were done by the Cons. The most recent one, which was written up in the National Post today, was the Liberal's unwinding of the Cons' changes to spousal sponsorship. I'm not sure what sense the Liberals' position makes at all but they continue to waste time and taxpayer resources on such nonsense.

As for the falsification of documents, I think it's abhorrent. However, I would still rather have a few bad apples slipping through tightened cracks than under the previous system where the doors were wide open for abuse. Under the last Liberal government, there was no need to even produce false documents because they didn't care if you had lived in Canada for a single day or not.

 

[McClane]

I think the problem is one of financial liabilities. If the government hands out citizenship as quickly and easy as most people here would want them to do it, and then does not put any barriers on people leaving the country immediately, they're essentially increasing their exposure in the future, when all these citizens might (or might not) return to the country and use expensive services at an old age. This might or might not happen, but it's certainly a risk worth discussing.

I do understand that it'd be backwards to force naturalized citizens to stay, and probably more expensive, if they cannot find jobs in Canada, so there's that point of view, too.

Personally, I know people who are only in Canada waiting for their citizenship to move elsewhere (some illegally to the US) and they see Canada as a fallback plan in case they fail abroad. For them Canada is just a place to avoid going back to their third world countries. But I also know people who have lived, worked and contributed to Canada and just came across good opportunities abroad. There must be all sorts of attitudes and intentions out there.

This is surely not a black and white discussion, but people just want to focus on the extremes, which is why it will never go anywhere.

I for one support a relatively lengthy citizenship process, but can see pros and cons around it.

 

[Politren]

I have high expectations for Canada because I believe in the country. Yes, there are certainly flaws, but I saw the previous government trying to close the existing loopholes. What infuriates me now is that I see the new government trying to undo all of those changes for no reason other than they were done by the Cons. The most recent one, which was written up in the National Post today, was the Liberal's unwinding of the Cons' changes to spousal sponsorship. I'm not sure what sense the Liberals' position makes at all but they continue to waste time and taxpayer resources on such nonsense.

As for the falsification of documents, I think it's abhorrent. However, I would still rather have a few bad apples slipping through tightened cracks than under the previous system where the doors were wide open for abuse. Under the last Liberal government, there was no need to even produce false documents because they didn't care if you had lived in Canada for a single day or not.

torontosm
Exactly the Conservatives created the wonderful option for the scammers to "prove" residency by creating their "scary" RQs.
The problem with the RQs is the fact that the list of the documents have been the same from the very beginning which gave enough time for the scammers to explore and find the weaknesses of that policy.
So the Conservatives end up being a cooperation help to cheat the system by their pretending anti fraud policy.
The recent General Audit proved that once again that the fraud is actually tolerated within CIC as a federal agency.

Sorry I just can't have high expectations by seeing how actually the system here works.

 

[torontosm]

torontosm
Exactly the Conservatives created the wonderful option for the scammers to "prove" residency by creating their "scary" RQs.
The problem with the RQs is the fact that the list of the documents have been the same from the very beginning which gave enough time for the scammers to explore and find the weaknesses of that policy.
So the Conservatives end up being a cooperation help to cheat the system by their pretending anti fraud policy.
The recent General Audit proved that once again that the fraud is actually tolerated within CIC as a federal agency.

Yes, the system is far from perfect. So what is your suggestion? Stop RQ's and stop evaluating documents proving residency at all, just because a few people have gamed the system to gain citizenship illegally? The Liberals tried that in the early 2000's any many thousands more people "slipped through the cracks" then. So, while it still has its flaws, the RQ system did stop a number of potential fraudsters, which is why I support it.

 

[Politren]

Yes, the system is far from perfect. So what is your suggestion? Stop RQ's and stop evaluating documents proving residency at all, just because a few people have gamed the system to gain citizenship illegally? The Liberals tried that in the early 2000's any many thousands more people "slipped through the cracks" then. So, while it still has its flaws, the RQ system did stop a number of potential fraudsters, which is why I support it.

The scammers also support the RQ system which makes Canada a perfect destination for getting citizenship by pretending living here only by submitting some extra fabricated docs. And after all people like you still talk about what is ethical and what is not.
CIC should rely predominantly on internal sources of information. If they want a "prove" from a scammer the scammer can "prove" everything. I guess you see how horrible the whole system works.

 

[torontosm]

The scammers also support the RQ system which makes Canada a perfect destination for getting citizenship by pretending living here only by submitting some extra fabricated docs. And after all people like you still talk about what is ethical and what is not.
CIC should rely predominantly on internal sources of information. If they want a "prove" from a scammer the scammer can "prove" everything. I guess you see how horrible the whole system works.

And what you propose is exactly what the CIC is doing. They are using travel records to track movements, and are integrating with the CRA to ensure residency. It still has a long way to go, but it is definitely moving in the right direction.

 

[MasterGeek]

Why should I be prevented from traveling and have restricted business and career opportunities just because I was born in the wrong country or to parents with the wrong citizenship, it is not fair.

Therefore, I, too, want to become a member of the 1st class citizens club, for example by becoming a Canadian citizen.

As they say: If you can't beat them, join them 8)

 

[torontosm]

Why should I be prevented from traveling and have restricted business and career opportunities just because I was born in the wrong country or to parents with the wrong citizenship, it is not fair.

Therefore, I, too, want to become a member of the 1st class citizens club, for example by becoming a Canadian citizen.

By that logic, we should all have US and EU passports as well. Why don't you ask for those and see how far you get?

 

[MasterGeek]

By that logic, we should all have US and EU passports as well. Why don't you ask for those and see how far you get?

In conformance with the laws of nature, I take the path of least resistance 8)