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Canadian Experience​ - a systemic unfair employment barrier to new comers

Korea2Canada

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In some cases immigrants have been hired over other Canadians.
 

trainspotting

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Korea2Canada said:
In some cases immigrants have been hired over other Canadians.
You got to be kidding me right?

And those immigrants you claimed to have been hired over other Canadians are hired for what kind of jobs? Are they advanced degree holders (doctors, lawyers, PhDs) working dead-end blue-collar jobs as janitors, security guards and staff at McDonalds or cab drivers? Or are you simply going on based on what you heard on the xenophobic news about the RBC matter?

Get a clue and wise up. If you have not even landed in Canada, don't talk so much about something that you have no clue about.

Once you land and start to live here, maybe you can get to see the anti-immigrant sentiments on the ground here, and then get to experience what it is like to be excluded socially and to encounter endless barriers to employment based on your skin color and immigrant status, and see if you would still say what you said out of ignorance.

Karma will get you.
 

emamabd

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trainspotting said:
Once you land and start to live here, maybe you can get to see the anti-immigrant sentiments on the ground here, and then get to experience what it is like to be excluded socially and to encounter endless barriers to employment based on your skin color and immigrant status, and see if you would still say what you said out of ignorance.

Karma will get you.
how did you conclude that immigrants are not being hired because of their skin colour??
 

on-hold

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My experience is the same as Bargeld and the person who settled in Winnipeg -- going where jobs are makes a huge difference. Alberta is not just the oil industry -- it has construction and skilled labour jobs that pay well enough to attract many people; this frees up other jobs in other sectors, when people from these find high-paying blue collar work. Everyone is better off. Every Alberta NGO I've worked with here has immigrants on the payroll -- in places with a bad job market, these are positions that require connections.

Here in Alberta, employment counselors explain to immigrants what safety tickets they need, and they give them lists of companies to apply to. In Victoria, they told me to go volunteer to get my foot in the door . . . In places where there are jobs, people don't work for free . . .

Trainspotting, what is this for you? Year 4 in Ontario? You must have tried different strategies there, which worked best?
 

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on-hold said:
My experience is the same as Bargeld and the person who settled in Winnipeg -- going where jobs are makes a huge difference.
The difference is enormous.

I went from Ontario, to people who don't like my American education and experience and in most cases refuse to recognize it, to Alberta where they practically salivate over it.

It makes getting a supplementary degree at SAIT that much more appealing.

Of course, I guess when at first you don't succeed, cry racism/blame others.
 

on-hold

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I had an American friend once describe the attitude of Southern Ontarians to United States -- it's the big brother who they hate but also crave approval from. I told her I couldn't verify that, for some reason all of my friends at UofT were from up north. She said hers were too, that's just how it fell out -- the northerners don't care, the southerners have a chip on their shoulders. Out here in Alberta, filled with immigrants and far from Ontario, an American college degree is just easier to evaluate than one from the Philippines. And the Albertans have more against Ontario and Quebec than they do the States . . .

Like any stereotype, it's not 'true' in a comprehensive sense -- I love Ontario and loved living there, but I was a college student who didn't need to fit in. In Alberta the population is mobile, my accent is 99.99% local, and there are so many jobs for everyone that the turnover leaves openings.
 

clubcanada

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I pretty much agree with Bargeld. From my point of view you have three options: take it, change it, or leave it.
number two in this case is not an option as I see it a bit rude coming to a new country as an immigrant and the first thing you want to do is to change their system?! I'm not saying that it's a fair system but let's be honest: As an immigrant you came voluntarily to Canada and you had a lot of resources to make yourself familiar beforehand of common practices in Canada. "Canadian experience" and hiring practices in favor of locals have been around for ages. If you haven't heard it before, you didn't do your homework...

So this leaves you with "accept the rules" or "go back to your home country". It's up to you...
 

trainspotting

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clubcanada said:
I pretty much agree with Bargeld. From my point of view you have three options: take it, change it, or leave it.
number two in this case is not an option as I see it a bit rude coming to a new country as an immigrant and the first thing you want to do is to change their system?! I'm not saying that it's a fair system but let's be honest: As an immigrant you came voluntarily to Canada and you had a lot of resources to make yourself familiar beforehand of common practices in Canada. "Canadian experience" and hiring practices in favor of locals have been around for ages. If you haven't heard it before, you didn't do your homework...

So this leaves you with "accept the rules" or "go back to your home country". It's up to you...
I don't know what planet you live on.

The issue is not about immigrants having to accept every type of treatment dished out to them -- even if it is morally and legally wrong -- or leaving.

The real issue involves Canada being represented to the immigrants before they landed as being a place that respects human rights, celebrates diversity and protects individuals against discrimination based on skin color and national origin. (You may want to refer to the Equal Protection Clause of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms (which applies to acts of governmental or quasi-governmental entities) as well as the various provincial human rights codes (which apply to acts of private persons such as employers) on this matter; these mandatory provisions are explicit in rendering discrimination based on skin color and national origin illegal.)

Yet, once the immigrants have expended significant amount of time, energy and resources to uproot themselves and their families to move to Canada based on that representation and good faith reliance that the laws and rules against discrimination would be enforced -- they arrive in Canada to see and experience a rather disturbing picture that is not just different from the one represented to them, but quite the opposite. Thus, the real issue is one involving accuracy of representation, estoppel, as well as justifiable reliance. Surely, it is unfair to expect immigrants who do not wish to tolerate unlawful discriminatory practices against them to *again* bear the entire burden of uprooting themselves again and leave Canada, after already incurring significant time and expense of uprooting themselves and their families and disrupting their lives and careers to arrive here in the first place. There is a significant amount of human costs that you are unfairly asking the immigrants to shoulder -- perhaps if you would take a moment and reflect on what you are suggesting, then maybe you can see the *cruelty* behind your suggestion -- I hope you can live with yourself.

The obvious decent thing to do is to simply enforce the laws *equally*, treat persons equally based on merits in accordance with the laws, and respect human rights. The immigrants are not asking for more favorable treatment -- they are merely asking for equal treatment based on the merits or at least a minimization of unequal/unfair treatment-- is this asking for too much, given that the immigrants are humans too and they have the same obligation to obey the laws and pay taxes like everyone else, in addition to paying the same prices for goods and services like everyone else as consumers contributing to the Canadian economy?

And your suggestion that the pervasive use of "Canadian Experience" -- a prima facie discriminatory practice contrary to the Ontario Human Rights Code as indicated by the Ontario Human Rights Commission (see <http://www.ohrc.on.ca/en/policy-removing-“canadian-experience”-barrier>) -- as something that should be accepted by the immigrants if they want to stay here is quite simply morally wrong as well as contrary to the law.
 

on-hold

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trainspotting said:
I don't know what planet you live on.

The issue is not about immigrants having to accept every type of treatment dished out to them -- even if it is morally and legally wrong -- or leaving.

The real issue involves Canada being represented to the immigrants before they landed as being a place that respects human rights, celebrates diversity and protects individuals against discrimination based on skin color and national origin. (You may want to refer to the Equal Protection Clause of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms (which applies to acts of governmental or quasi-governmental entities) as well as the various provincial human rights codes (which apply to acts of private persons such as employers) on this matter; these mandatory provisions are explicit in rendering discrimination based on skin color and national origin illegal.)

Yet, once the immigrants have expended significant amount of time, energy and resources to uproot themselves and their families to move to Canada based on that representation and good faith reliance that the laws and rules against discrimination would be enforced -- they arrive in Canada to see and experience a rather disturbing picture that is not just different from the one represented to them, but quite the opposite. Thus, the real issue is one involving accuracy of representation, estoppel, as well as justifiable reliance. Surely, it is unfair to expect immigrants who do not wish to tolerate unlawful discriminatory practices against them to *again* bear the entire burden of uprooting themselves again and leave Canada, after already incurring significant time and expense of uprooting themselves and their families and disrupting their lives and careers to arrive here in the first place. There is a significant amount of human costs that you are unfairly asking the immigrants to shoulder -- perhaps if you would take a moment and reflect on what you are suggesting, then maybe you can see the *cruelty* behind your suggestion -- I hope you can live with yourself.

The obvious decent thing to do is to simply enforce the laws *equally*, treat persons equally based on merits in accordance with the laws, and respect human rights. The immigrants are not asking for more favorable treatment -- they are merely asking for equal treatment based on the merits or at least a minimization of unequal/unfair treatment-- is this asking for too much, given that the immigrants are humans too and they have the same obligation to obey the laws and pay taxes like everyone else, in addition to paying the same prices for goods and services like everyone else as consumers contributing to the Canadian economy?

And your suggestion that the pervasive use of "Canadian Experience" -- a prima facie discriminatory practice contrary to the Ontario Human Rights Code as indicated by the Ontario Human Rights Commission (see <http://www.ohrc.on.ca/en/policy-removing-“canadian-experience”-barrier>) -- as something that should be accepted by the immigrants if they want to stay here is quite simply morally wrong as well as contrary to the law.
Well, many points. Firstly, it is illegal to discriminate based upon ethnicity, national origin, etc. However, this is not the same as discriminating against skills, which is where Canadian experience is taken as important. Every HR department discriminates based upon skills, this is not a human rights violation.

I don't know what you mean about Canada being 'marketed'. I didn't come here based upon an advertisement. As for its reputation as a place where human rights are respected and people are treated equally, this is based on reality. Canada is one of the most equitable and accepting countries in the world. Look at this article as an example of what does not exist here: http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/10/10/we-are-zero-immigrant-says-she-cant-escape-sting-of-indias-caste-system-even-in-canada/

I simply don't understand how you can look at a country that has so many immigrants, of such diverse origins, in skilled careers, universities, and even the provincial and national governments, and conclude that there are legal barriers against them. When you say 'enforce laws equally', I would like to know what law that is? Tell me what law has not been enforced, which would have made you a professional success if it had been.

Let me give an example of how Canadian experience is valuable. When I came here, I had some -- 4 years of study, no work. The first real job I got, after a lousy year that was also Canadian experience, was at a low-mid level in an NGO; there I found out that though I knew a lot about public health, and epidemiology, and the disease I was working with, I knew nothing about Alberta's health care system and less than nothing (because I had many wrong ideas) about the relationship between different levels of government and Aboriginal government structures. I had to learn these, and that made me a less-valuable employee. Later I got a higher position in a different NGO, but I wouldn't have been a good bet to start out there. I am sure that every field, no matter how general, has specific areas that are different in Canada than elsewhere.

If I went to the Netherlands, I wouldn't be surprised if they preferred people with local experience; or in Denmark; or in Zambia. I guess I just don't understand why you find Canadian experience to be such a shocking and insurmountable barrier? Get a job, then you have Canadian experience. No one can live without working; so Canadian experience is inevitably acquired. I see immigrants working in grocery stores and medical clinics, universities and NGOs, taxis, restaurants, work camps, QuikShops, and Parliament. Don't you ever wonder what these people have done to adapt and fit in? That is what Canadian experience means.
 

pickabeau

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good points being made

Though i empathise with trainspotting

Immigrants leave their roots and its like they start over again in a new land
 

on-hold

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I empathize with trainspotting, but he also makes me curious. He is the most persistent Eeyore on this forum, and unlike the others his posts are consistently depressing. If you look through his posting history (which he has edited substantially), they are the same from the beginning to end: tricked into coming here, promising career blighted, passive-aggressiveness of Canadians, isolated, miserable, funds running out, hopeless. However, unlike other people who complain and gripe (including myself), trainspotting never gives any details that would let one actually evaluate his situation or choices. This is what can be told about him:

- he has a PhD, but in what is unknown.

- he was making 6 figures plus in salary in the United States, but decided to come to Canada; the reason why is unknown.

- he has been here for more than 3 years, but has never worked once; what has he been doing? How does he survive?

- he bizarrely considers America to be less racist than Canada; why did he leave America?

- he despises Toronto and Torontonians, but in 3 years of never working he has not left for somewhere else; why? Alberta is filled with jobs.

- Everything that he has gone wrong he ascribes to Canadian racism, Canadian passive-aggressiveness, and the requirement for Canadian experience. This is what I'd like to know about him.

1) Why he came to Canada? He had a PhD and a good job in the United States -- if I had been making 6 figures+ in the U.S., I would not have come here without a similar job. Why is that? Because the PhD job market EVERYWHERE is specialized and selective. Only a madman would quit a good job in California to move to Texas; only an idiot would quit a job in Florida to move to New York City; and this is ESPECIALLY true in Canada, where the academic networks that people depend on to find jobs will semi-exclude the United States. So trainspotting, if for some odd reason you quit a permanent job to emigrate to Canada on a whim, and expected to find work easily, I consider that to be your terrible judgement.

And this is assuming your PhD is even in a useful subject. There are many, like anthropology, where you must be a professor, or nothing; and most people are nothing . . . What is your subject?

2) How is it remotely possible that you have never worked here? Did you think of Canada as a place where you would be acclaimed as a professional with no period of adjustment? The crap jobs most of us take are crap jobs; but they are also that thing that infuriates you so, 'Canadian experience.' When I had my first interview for a real job here, I told them flat out -- "Look, I've been working in a grocery store in Victoria for a year and it's fine for surviving but I've got a lot more to contribute to this place." Not everyone in Canada looks down on honest work; what would you have said, when they ask about the huge gap on your resume? "Look, I've been waiting for the job that I deserve; I sit in my apartment and surf the web." Working in a grocery was no fun, but it kept my landing funds in the bank and gave me and my family the leeway to make some choices. How many immigrants would succeed if, when they landed, they whispered to themselves: "I'm going to do everything I have to do to prosper in this strange new land, except work at a job that is below my professional level"?

3) You generally seem to hate Canada -- though there are exceptions. In July of last year you write:

Don't believe in the lies and the myth about people in Canada being nice and friendly.

It cannot be further from the truth.

The truth is that folks in Canada, at least the ones in Toronto, are probably the rudest persons you will come across in your life.

If you think that Americans are loud and rude and cannot get any worse -- wait till you come to Canada and more specifically Toronto.

The rudeness level here is unseen anywhere in the world, and it is not the loud kind of rudeness like you occasionally get in the U.S.

In Canada, the rudeness is passive. More precisely, it is extreme passive aggressiveness. You just get stared at coldly by others, even though you did absolutely nothing wrong.


But then in November of the same year, you write (more reasonably, I think):

Personally, I prefer the living environment in Canada to that in the U.S. I think Canadians are not dissimilar to Americans. Certainly, from my personal perspective, Canadians generally seem more egalitarian in their social outlook. But the exclusiveness in the employment context leaves a lot to be desired, and can be improved upon for all concerned, because, ultimately, what good is it for the immigrant and for the Canadians if the immigrant is welcome into Canada, but then has to spend the rest of his or her life looking for a job? It seems very cruel and unfair to the person.

So, again, the bottom line is: do your own research thoroughly before you move. Remember that there are things and norms in Canada that you must respect (even if you disagree with it, such as the tendency to exclude new-comers from the workplace), because ultimately, the Canadians are entitled to make their own rules as to how the system works in Canada.


But apart from this exception, all of your posts are the same, and in particular dwelling on the passive-aggressiveness of Canadians. I would like to suggest something -- and this is obviously limited in value by knowing you only through your posts -- that your strategy in assimilating to Canada has been itself extremely passive aggressive. An immigrant, or anyone, has to put themselves out there to be received; whereas you have done the opposite, staying inside. Where is the survival job that would have let you meet a few people, feel useful, and get out of your apartment? You never had one. What have you done in the past three years, as your professional experience in the United States recedes farther and farther into the distance? Stayed in your apartment and sent out resumes attached to emails. When did you move out of the GTA area to talk to possible employers or look at possible moves to Winnipeg, Calgary, Thunder Bay, or Saskatoon? Here is the record of your one trip:

On a side note, I actually visited a couple of smaller cities/towns outside of Toronto (1-2 hours train ride) just to get a sense of what it is like outside of Toronto and also to see if I could rent an apartment at a cheaper price. Visited some supposedly very good areas (according to people I talked to) -- but turned out to be a very bad mistake on my part. I was stared at in quite a hostile manner by some of the town folks -- not mere glances, but stare downs that lasted 5-10 seconds. Not sure why they did this, since they just stared at me coldly and rudely and did not say anything to me. I look average and normal, and I was dressed normally -- and I was just keeping to myself and minding my own business and walking normally. It seemed to me as if they wanted to let me know that I am not welcome in their town and/or that they have an issue with me -- but somehow they did not want to say it outright. Maybe I was doing something wrong, but if I was behaving wrongly, I honestly am not aware of what that is.

In other words, you came out of your shell, decided to think about making a break for it (all of one hour away), and someone looked at you wrong and you ducked back into Toronto for another 6 weeks of winter. The fact that your experience is totally different from anyone else I have ever talked to -- 'stare-downs that lasted 5-10 seconds -- makes me wonder whether you are perhaps in need of professional help. This is not meant as an insult, but a suggestion that perhaps you could discuss your inner state with a psychologist and see what they recommend. Reading all of your letters at once is quite depressing, not because of the failure -- most people here have failed at something or other, and some are currently failing -- but very few people actually despair. Here are some of the quotes that make me wonder if you are blaming Canada for a case of severe depression:

I look back at my life with lots of regret. I am broken emotionally and I am looking at a depleted bank account. I literally know no one in Canada that would fit into a truthful definition of a "friend" despite years of trying to connect with others. It is just sad really. (June, 2013)

silent, indirect exclusion in the social context (April 2013)

Yes, but then the questions become: (1) why they are so passive aggressive -- why can't they just simply state what the problem is and communicate it in an upfront and direct manner, so that everyone is on the same page and can try to fix the problem? (March, 2013)

You name it, I have seen it -- the silent side glares, the rolling of the eyes, the cold stares, etc. It is like they are trying to say "we don't like you here, and we don't want to have anything to do with you" without words.

Not saying I expect to be well-liked. Actually, I don't expect others to like me. Why should they? After all, they have no obligation to like me or even interact with me. But what I don't understand is why they are quite insistent and deliberate in conveying to me their dislike of me. Why can't they just ignore me. Why must they go beyond that to express their dislike of me? I mean, come on, I don't even know them -- most of the time, these are just strangers. And why must the dislike be expressed without using words? Why can't they just tell me in words what is it about me that is bothering them? I just don't understand -- I have never come across anything like this anywhere else in the world.


Now, after the traumatic experience, I am a very broken and different person, with a completely different mindset. I am still trying to have a better life and improve my lot. I am trying -- very hard and very desperately -- to hang on to a positive outlook on life.(March, 2013)

This whole Canadian misadventure is by far the toughest thing I have done in my life. Despite the many difficulties, I keep struggling to stand up and stay afloat, but then every now and then, I would find myself slipping and feeling down again. (February, 2013)

Every time I try to reach out and go out and open myself up to the outside world, I would come back home feeling depressed by the cold, sulking faces that always confront me outside. Maybe it is racism, maybe it is passive aggressiveness, I don't know. What I know is that I am making continuous, good faith efforts to reach out to people -- but somehow, there is no success for years. (January, 2013)

Personally, I sometimes think God is making me suffer in Canada. This has become my personal hell. Every day, I am struggling to find a job (been so for years), (January, 2013)

It is difficult to explain because the resistance to change, like most things here, is very subtle and passive -- but it is nonetheless there, ever-present. After a while, you learn to pick up on it and its vibe. There are invisible but very real walls and barriers everywhere, and it is a constant struggle to try to overcome them. After a while, you either get used to them, become worn out, or cease to care about things. (December, 2012)


I am not saying that I do not get bothered by it -- I see that passive aggressive racism all over the place and I get depressed by it and by the resultant exclusion, alienation and loneliness sometimes; but I just try to control my reaction -- after a while, I just don't feel much things anymore -- I have kind of lost faith in people generally, and I just feel numb most of the time -- no emotions, no expectations, nothing.
(December, 2012)

After years and years of being ignored, nowadays whenever I have to go out, I just put on my earphones and keep to myself. Just trying to get by without feeling anything. (November, 2012)

So trainspotting, if you were my friend and these are accurate representations of your mood, I would strongly encourage you to seek medical help. Depression is not something that can simply be shaken off, and one of its major symptoms is an inability to communicate effectively with people. You have that, and you are putting it down to the fact that the people are Canadians -- but I assure you, you are living in a different Canada than most people here. These bizarre anecdotes of being constantly threatened on the subway, of going to a new town and being stared down by aggressive strangers, are simply not reality. Your actions since coming to Canada -- not working, not moving, not experimenting to improve your life -- are consistent with depression.

I haven't gone through your old posts to harass you, and I hope you don't consider it to be done aggressively. I've been struck over the past year by your consistent despair, and the odd nature of your inability to engage with Canada.

However, sometimes you write something that makes me think you just have no idea how to relate to people. The last two quotes suggest that 1) you know nothing about the United States and 2) that you have a highly exaggerated idea of your value in Canada . . . :) God help you if you say things like that out loud . . . :-X



Homeless people everywhere -- and the homeless in Canada are not like the harmless homeless beggars in the US. In Toronto, for example, many of the homeless folks have serious mental health issues and will sometimes pose safety threats.

And yes, I do notice that Canadian employers have a difficult time acknowledging that Americans are able to do things better.
 

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Very good points on both sides. I think it's fair to say that one's point of view depends large on their own personal experience or that of friends/loved ones.
As someone who first came as a student and eventually settled here, I understand where trainspotting is coming from as well as on-hold and the others. I have experienced both worlds. This is what I realised:
1. Canadian experience remains one of the most important factors that employers look for. The few times someone with little or no experience gets a good position is if they know someone who knows someone, etc.
2. the hidden job market - this one is an even bigger barrier. If you don't even know that there is a job vacancy, how do you stand a chance? Ex: a colleague is leaving their position but their job may not be posted though they need someone. So the only people that know are those already working in your department or other internal candidates. External candidates don't even know there was a job vacancy.
3. Networking - this is another hurdle for new immigrants because many don't know anyone. This is probably one area that trumps Canadian experience because who you know will get you the job sometimes, experience or not. I did not network when I was a student because I didn't even know it was something that was necessary. Reality set in when I graduated and barely had any work experience or even references. I would admit this had a negative impact on my ability to find even entry level work. Eventually, I found work after taking a professional development course and volunteering a bit more. In fact, to this day, I believe my reference from the volunteer work is what helped me get the job.
4. discrimination - it is an uncomfortable truth but it happens. The difference nowadays is no one would say it using words that could get them into trouble. It could be your name, accent, where you come from, etc. But this is not something you can control or allow to get you down. You have to tackle it from the point of finding out what you can do to make yourself stand out from other candidates?

My suggestions are:
1. when you arrive, be involved in your community by volunteering, going to church, etc. The YMCA has very good programs for immigrants. Churches also have outreach programs - be involved, get to know people, etc. Volunteering is also a form of work experience and looks really good on a Resume. You may find it helpful to volunteer in your field of interest because you can use your skills to help others, acquire some new skills and meet people who are in your field, thus building your network of contacts.
2. Explore avenues to upgrade your education or skills. It may mean going back to school or taking a short course.
3. Prepare your Resume to suit the Canadian style - you can find templates on Google
4. Attend career fairs and bring copies of your Resume. Also collect contact information of organizations of interest.
5. keep trying and don't give up. It does get better.
 

corazon3

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May 27, 2010
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on-hold said:
I empathize with trainspotting, but he also makes me curious. He is the most persistent Eeyore on this forum, and unlike the others his posts are consistently depressing. If you look through his posting history (which he has edited substantially), they are the same from the beginning to end: tricked into coming here, promising career blighted, passive-aggressiveness of Canadians, isolated, miserable, funds running out, hopeless. However, unlike other people who complain and gripe (including myself), trainspotting never gives any details that would let one actually evaluate his situation or choices. This is what can be told about him:

- he has a PhD, but in what is unknown.

- he was making 6 figures plus in salary in the United States, but decided to come to Canada; the reason why is unknown.

- he has been here for more than 3 years, but has never worked once; what has he been doing? How does he survive?

- he bizarrely considers America to be less racist than Canada; why did he leave America?

- he despises Toronto and Torontonians, but in 3 years of never working he has not left for somewhere else; why? Alberta is filled with jobs.

- Everything that he has gone wrong he ascribes to Canadian racism, Canadian passive-aggressiveness, and the requirement for Canadian experience. This is what I'd like to know about him.

1) Why he came to Canada? He had a PhD and a good job in the United States -- if I had been making 6 figures+ in the U.S., I would not have come here without a similar job. Why is that? Because the PhD job market EVERYWHERE is specialized and selective. Only a madman would quit a good job in California to move to Texas; only an idiot would quit a job in Florida to move to New York City; and this is ESPECIALLY true in Canada, where the academic networks that people depend on to find jobs will semi-exclude the United States. So trainspotting, if for some odd reason you quit a permanent job to emigrate to Canada on a whim, and expected to find work easily, I consider that to be your terrible judgement.

And this is assuming your PhD is even in a useful subject. There are many, like anthropology, where you must be a professor, or nothing; and most people are nothing . . . What is your subject?

2) How is it remotely possible that you have never worked here? Did you think of Canada as a place where you would be acclaimed as a professional with no period of adjustment? The crap jobs most of us take are crap jobs; but they are also that thing that infuriates you so, 'Canadian experience.' When I had my first interview for a real job here, I told them flat out -- "Look, I've been working in a grocery store in Victoria for a year and it's fine for surviving but I've got a lot more to contribute to this place." Not everyone in Canada looks down on honest work; what would you have said, when they ask about the huge gap on your resume? "Look, I've been waiting for the job that I deserve; I sit in my apartment and surf the web." Working in a grocery was no fun, but it kept my landing funds in the bank and gave me and my family the leeway to make some choices. How many immigrants would succeed if, when they landed, they whispered to themselves: "I'm going to do everything I have to do to prosper in this strange new land, except work at a job that is below my professional level"?

3) You generally seem to hate Canada -- though there are exceptions. In July of last year you write:

Don't believe in the lies and the myth about people in Canada being nice and friendly.

It cannot be further from the truth.

The truth is that folks in Canada, at least the ones in Toronto, are probably the rudest persons you will come across in your life.

If you think that Americans are loud and rude and cannot get any worse -- wait till you come to Canada and more specifically Toronto.

The rudeness level here is unseen anywhere in the world, and it is not the loud kind of rudeness like you occasionally get in the U.S.

In Canada, the rudeness is passive. More precisely, it is extreme passive aggressiveness. You just get stared at coldly by others, even though you did absolutely nothing wrong.


But then in November of the same year, you write (more reasonably, I think):

Personally, I prefer the living environment in Canada to that in the U.S. I think Canadians are not dissimilar to Americans. Certainly, from my personal perspective, Canadians generally seem more egalitarian in their social outlook. But the exclusiveness in the employment context leaves a lot to be desired, and can be improved upon for all concerned, because, ultimately, what good is it for the immigrant and for the Canadians if the immigrant is welcome into Canada, but then has to spend the rest of his or her life looking for a job? It seems very cruel and unfair to the person.

So, again, the bottom line is: do your own research thoroughly before you move. Remember that there are things and norms in Canada that you must respect (even if you disagree with it, such as the tendency to exclude new-comers from the workplace), because ultimately, the Canadians are entitled to make their own rules as to how the system works in Canada.


But apart from this exception, all of your posts are the same, and in particular dwelling on the passive-aggressiveness of Canadians. I would like to suggest something -- and this is obviously limited in value by knowing you only through your posts -- that your strategy in assimilating to Canada has been itself extremely passive aggressive. An immigrant, or anyone, has to put themselves out there to be received; whereas you have done the opposite, staying inside. Where is the survival job that would have let you meet a few people, feel useful, and get out of your apartment? You never had one. What have you done in the past three years, as your professional experience in the United States recedes farther and farther into the distance? Stayed in your apartment and sent out resumes attached to emails. When did you move out of the GTA area to talk to possible employers or look at possible moves to Winnipeg, Calgary, Thunder Bay, or Saskatoon? Here is the record of your one trip:

On a side note, I actually visited a couple of smaller cities/towns outside of Toronto (1-2 hours train ride) just to get a sense of what it is like outside of Toronto and also to see if I could rent an apartment at a cheaper price. Visited some supposedly very good areas (according to people I talked to) -- but turned out to be a very bad mistake on my part. I was stared at in quite a hostile manner by some of the town folks -- not mere glances, but stare downs that lasted 5-10 seconds. Not sure why they did this, since they just stared at me coldly and rudely and did not say anything to me. I look average and normal, and I was dressed normally -- and I was just keeping to myself and minding my own business and walking normally. It seemed to me as if they wanted to let me know that I am not welcome in their town and/or that they have an issue with me -- but somehow they did not want to say it outright. Maybe I was doing something wrong, but if I was behaving wrongly, I honestly am not aware of what that is.

In other words, you came out of your shell, decided to think about making a break for it (all of one hour away), and someone looked at you wrong and you ducked back into Toronto for another 6 weeks of winter. The fact that your experience is totally different from anyone else I have ever talked to -- 'stare-downs that lasted 5-10 seconds -- makes me wonder whether you are perhaps in need of professional help. This is not meant as an insult, but a suggestion that perhaps you could discuss your inner state with a psychologist and see what they recommend. Reading all of your letters at once is quite depressing, not because of the failure -- most people here have failed at something or other, and some are currently failing -- but very few people actually despair. Here are some of the quotes that make me wonder if you are blaming Canada for a case of severe depression:

I look back at my life with lots of regret. I am broken emotionally and I am looking at a depleted bank account. I literally know no one in Canada that would fit into a truthful definition of a "friend" despite years of trying to connect with others. It is just sad really. (June, 2013)

silent, indirect exclusion in the social context (April 2013)

Yes, but then the questions become: (1) why they are so passive aggressive -- why can't they just simply state what the problem is and communicate it in an upfront and direct manner, so that everyone is on the same page and can try to fix the problem? (March, 2013)

You name it, I have seen it -- the silent side glares, the rolling of the eyes, the cold stares, etc. It is like they are trying to say "we don't like you here, and we don't want to have anything to do with you" without words.

Not saying I expect to be well-liked. Actually, I don't expect others to like me. Why should they? After all, they have no obligation to like me or even interact with me. But what I don't understand is why they are quite insistent and deliberate in conveying to me their dislike of me. Why can't they just ignore me. Why must they go beyond that to express their dislike of me? I mean, come on, I don't even know them -- most of the time, these are just strangers. And why must the dislike be expressed without using words? Why can't they just tell me in words what is it about me that is bothering them? I just don't understand -- I have never come across anything like this anywhere else in the world.


Now, after the traumatic experience, I am a very broken and different person, with a completely different mindset. I am still trying to have a better life and improve my lot. I am trying -- very hard and very desperately -- to hang on to a positive outlook on life.(March, 2013)

This whole Canadian misadventure is by far the toughest thing I have done in my life. Despite the many difficulties, I keep struggling to stand up and stay afloat, but then every now and then, I would find myself slipping and feeling down again. (February, 2013)

Every time I try to reach out and go out and open myself up to the outside world, I would come back home feeling depressed by the cold, sulking faces that always confront me outside. Maybe it is racism, maybe it is passive aggressiveness, I don't know. What I know is that I am making continuous, good faith efforts to reach out to people -- but somehow, there is no success for years. (January, 2013)

Personally, I sometimes think God is making me suffer in Canada. This has become my personal hell. Every day, I am struggling to find a job (been so for years), (January, 2013)

It is difficult to explain because the resistance to change, like most things here, is very subtle and passive -- but it is nonetheless there, ever-present. After a while, you learn to pick up on it and its vibe. There are invisible but very real walls and barriers everywhere, and it is a constant struggle to try to overcome them. After a while, you either get used to them, become worn out, or cease to care about things. (December, 2012)


I am not saying that I do not get bothered by it -- I see that passive aggressive racism all over the place and I get depressed by it and by the resultant exclusion, alienation and loneliness sometimes; but I just try to control my reaction -- after a while, I just don't feel much things anymore -- I have kind of lost faith in people generally, and I just feel numb most of the time -- no emotions, no expectations, nothing.
(December, 2012)

After years and years of being ignored, nowadays whenever I have to go out, I just put on my earphones and keep to myself. Just trying to get by without feeling anything. (November, 2012)

So trainspotting, if you were my friend and these are accurate representations of your mood, I would strongly encourage you to seek medical help. Depression is not something that can simply be shaken off, and one of its major symptoms is an inability to communicate effectively with people. You have that, and you are putting it down to the fact that the people are Canadians -- but I assure you, you are living in a different Canada than most people here. These bizarre anecdotes of being constantly threatened on the subway, of going to a new town and being stared down by aggressive strangers, are simply not reality. Your actions since coming to Canada -- not working, not moving, not experimenting to improve your life -- are consistent with depression.

I haven't gone through your old posts to harass you, and I hope you don't consider it to be done aggressively. I've been struck over the past year by your consistent despair, and the odd nature of your inability to engage with Canada.

However, sometimes you write something that makes me think you just have no idea how to relate to people. The last two quotes suggest that 1) you know nothing about the United States and 2) that you have a highly exaggerated idea of your value in Canada . . . :) God help you if you say things like that out loud . . . :-X



Homeless people everywhere -- and the homeless in Canada are not like the harmless homeless beggars in the US. In Toronto, for example, many of the homeless folks have serious mental health issues and will sometimes pose safety threats.

And yes, I do notice that Canadian employers have a difficult time acknowledging that Americans are able to do things better.
I thought trainspotting is a dark-skinned South Asian, maybe from Nepal or Sri Lanka, or from Thailand. He sounds like one of those PhDs in the Humanities, most likely in Religion or Philosophy (probably Oriental), who failed to get tenure after teaching for yrs as an assistant professor at a US university. He was on a temporary US visa (h1B) and was forced to leave the US when his employment was terminated. So he ended up in Canada, which granted him Canadian PR. It's not that hard to figure out.
 

on-hold

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Feb 6, 2010
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I don't care about trainspotting's skin colour, but your guess that he didn't get tenure is plausible, and I somehow suspect that he's conflated the cruelty and oversupply of the academic job market with Canadian immigration.

Ironically, he and I possibly immigrated under the same NOC, 4131 (college instructor) -- I could never figure out why they were letting me in, since for a year before I applied, and during the entire period of my application, I never saw even a single job that I was qualified to apply for. 4131 was the stupidest NOC imaginable, because no one ever advertises for a 'college instructor' -- they advertise for a 'chemistry instructor' or an 'English instructor'. When they removed it, with my application safely in process, I laughed and laughed. Since my specialty was anatomy taught in support of a nursing program, which here in Canada is a course usually taught by a nurse, I always knew that it would be highly unlikely I would be a teacher in Canada. If it weren't for my second masters, in public health, I'd be waiting tables. But I don't blame Canada for that, in fact it makes me appreciate the place more, for giving such a useless fellow as me a break -- it mystifies me why trainspotting idealizes the United States, when for some reason he left it (or as you say, likely had to leave it). Canada let him in and has given him the same chances it gives every immigrant -- to imagine a version of yourself that can succeed here.

The sad thing is, a PhD makes you almost unemployable for almost any real job, since you are always under suspicion of looking for something better. Even there, though, there are options: I've found a part-time job teaching online, which ironically enough is the role Canada admitted me for.
 

yuvs

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Already signed the petition .....

CanuckForEver said:
[size=10pt][size=10pt]Petitioning The Honourable Dr. Kellie Leitch
The Honourable Dr. Kellie Leitch, The Honourable Yasir Naqvi: “Canadian Experience” a systemic unfair employment barrier to new comers

Petition by: One Voice Canada Employment and Community Services
[/size] [/size]

Internationally educated new comer professionals to Canada are facing two common systemic unfair employment barriers, 1) credentials not recognized, 2) wealth of knowledge and experience they bring from the world is not valued by the employers in Canada. The irony is internationally educated professional were granted permanent resident status due to their credentials and experience along with their professional skills.

The Ontario Human Rights Commission (OHRC) on Monday launched a new policy directive denouncing the requirement for so-called “Canadian experience” as discriminatory.


“Some employers are using the Canadian experience requirement as a proxy for discrimination, which they know is illegal. But even when hidden, discrimination in employment is still against the law,” OHRC Chief Commissioner Barbara Hall told a news conference.


“The policy we are launching can help remove these barriers and give employers and regulatory bodies the tools they need to respect human rights. The starting point . . . is a simple one: insisting on Canadian experience is discrimination under the Human Rights Code.”

Source:

http://www.thestar.com/news/queenspark/2013/07/15/demanding_canadian_experience_from_newcomers_may_breach_ontarios_human_rights_code.html

An example of Thorncliffe Park in Toronto Canada, is presented here to understand the real picture of new comers socioeconomic problems to Canada. Thorncliffe Park is a home to more newcomers per square foot than anywhere else in Canada. It is the most densely populated neighborhood in Toronto. A population of 28,000 to 30,000 people live in Thorncliffe Park.

Sixty three percent (63%) of the entire population in Thorncliffe Park have a post-secondary education which is three times higher than the academic profile of any community in the GTA. Yet this community is facing over 27% unemployment or underemployment ratio, which is more than three times the average unemployment rate for the city of Toronto.

In fact, it is higher than the unemployment ratio recorded in 2012 for Spain 26% (2012), Greece 26% (2012) and Afghanistan 15% (Source: Trading Economics).

Most newcomers who experience unemployment and underemployment perceive the root cause to be racism and discrimination. Many newcomers, particularly those with an advanced level of education, feel frustrated and disenchanted because they cannot find commensurate employment, since their foreign credentials are not recognized.

When they cannot find desirable or suitable employment in accordance with their qualifications, they feel the loss of social status. They were once respected in the social circle of their country of origin and now become feel humiliated after receiving Canadian permanent status in the Canadian social fabric.

Despite these challenges, many newcomers have shown resilience in dealing with their economic problems in Canada. Some decided to go back to school to upgrade their education/training, or to acquire Canadian credentials. Some pick up survival jobs to feed their families.

In a new country, the cultural and environmental changes become daunting to some and in addition, the challenge of securing employment, becomes a daunting and often futile task for any newcomer. It takes a huge level of reserve and determination when foreign credentials are not recognized; world of experience is not valued; ethnic names on the resumes adds systemic discrimination in hiring and promotion opportunities.

How ethnic names negatively affect job search on the resumes, view this report “New Study Highlights Employment Barriers for Immigrants in Canada”

http://www.cpj.ca/en/blog/mariel/new-study-highlights-employment-barriers-immigrants

Internationally trained professionals can make a positive contributions to the Canadian labour market and society. They can strengthen inclusion and diversity in this country with the broad international expertise and diverse skills they bring with them. They can help Canadian businesses and non-profits leverage a diverse pool of talent to reflect their target market and connect them to new ethnic markets and demographic groups.

It's about time for the Canadian Government to stop such discriminatory labor practices by employers against new comers .By introducing new legislation to binding the employers in Canada to consider new comers' credentials and experience equally relevant to the job opportunity as they would consider it for any other Canadian.

Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms states very clearly about reducing disparity in opportunities.

Quote/

“PART III

EQUALIZATION AND REGIONAL DISPARITIES

Marginal note: Commitment to promote equal opportunities
36. (1) Without altering the legislative authority of Parliament or of the provincial legislatures, or the rights of any of them with respect to the exercise of their legislative authority, Parliament and the legislatures, together with the government of Canada and the provincial governments, are committed to
(a) promoting equal opportunities for the well-being of Canadians;
(b) furthering economic development to reduce disparity in opportunities;

/ Unquote

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/Const/page-16.html#docCont

Canadian employers are telling the new professional immigrants that their credentials are not recognized in Canada and their wealth of experience from the world have no value for them to be hired however Royal Bank of Canada is hiring cheap temp workers from India.

The irony is top talent from India and other South Asian countries are already in Canada however they are not being considered due to so called "No Canadian Experience". Yet temp cheap employees are being imported across Atlantic over new professional immigrants who are trying to make a living for their families and trying hard to contribute in the Canadian economy..

Read the recent news report of the Star and an apology letter from Royal Bank of Canada on the link below

http://www.thestar.com/business/2013/04/11/rbc_chief_issues_open_letter_apology_to_canadians_over_outsourcing.html

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2013/04/05/bc-rbc-foreign-workers.html

As an internationally trained professional myself, I had faced many employment systemic barriers and discriminatory practices both in the corporate and in the not for profit sector. Time has come for new comers to take their destiny into their own hands. New comer socioeconomic systemic barriers will receive a vigorous voice from a community based organization formed by new comers in the name of One Voice Canada Employment and Community Services.

Through this online petition we are pleading to Canadian Minister of Labour, The Honourable Lisa Raitt and to the Ontario Minister of Labour, The Honourable Yasir Naqvi to introduce the needed legislation in both houses according to the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms and provide equal opportunities to new comers for economic development to reduce disparity in their socioeconomic life in Canada.

New comers are hoping through this petition, Canadian experience used regularly as a cliché by the employers, should be replaced with the relevant experience, and credentials after the professional evaluation from a recognized Canadian academic institute should be considered equal as local Canadians.

Most Sincerely,

Aamir Khawaja

http://onevoicecanada.org/

Sign the petition at: https://www.change.org/en-CA/petitions/the-honourable-dr-kellie-leitch-the-honourable-yasir-naqvi-canadian-experience-a-systemic-unfair-employment-barrier-to-new-comers?utm_campaign=petition_message_notice&utm_medium=email&utm_source=supporter_message