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Can we take virtual oath while being in other country

tosinosho1992

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Nov 4, 2010
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that is not possible by any means ...
First of all you wont have your PR card to return
secondly, in your application you have to mention details of other passports you carry, which will immediately raise a flag once you return to collect your certificate .. which god knows how you will make it through.
Thirdly, what makes you so sure that they wouldn't be able to track your connection and know if you are inbound or outbound ?!!

who would in his sane mind, after working his A** off and going through all the instability roller coaster, decide to risk all this cause he is lazy to take a flight and attend his oath and get done with whats left of his process ??
Careful with the assumptions. The question about taking the virtual oath abroad is not a case of being "Lazy". You do realize there is a pandemic and there are still flight restrictions right? Also, some people have been exposed to the virus and are required to self-isolate. These are unprecedented times and if things were normal, most applicants abroad would not have a problem flying down to take the oath of citizenship.
 
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tosinosho1992

Star Member
Nov 4, 2010
138
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Careful with the assumptions. The question about taking the virtual oath abroad is not a case of being "Lazy". You do realize there is a pandemic and there are still flight restrictions. Also, some people have been exposed to the virus and are required to self-isolate. These are unprecedented times and if things were normal, most applicants that are abroad would not have a problem flying down to take the oath of citizenship.
P*S. I sense an assumption of dishonesty. I don't think anyone would want to conceal the fact they are abroad to cheat the system. The question was asked to get varied opinions. Worst case scenario, oath would be delayed until the restrictions are lifted and applicants abroad can fly back safely without compromising the health of Canadians and integrity of the citizenship process.
 

eatpraylove

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Jan 5, 2017
180
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Careful with the assumptions. The question about taking the virtual oath abroad is not a case of being "Lazy". You do realize there is a pandemic and there are still flight restrictions right? Also, some people have been exposed to the virus and are required to self-isolate. These are unprecedented times and if things were normal, most applicants abroad would not have a problem flying down to take the oath of citizenship.
i am not replying to his question on himself specifically ... did you read the amount of workarounds written in the reply ?
The instruction on IRCC website clearly mention that if you are planning to leave the country after your application for more than two weeks , you should inform them.
now, if there is a question about doing the oath outside Canada, another question should be raised,did the person outside Canada inform IRCC that he is leaving the country for more than two weeks ? there is no assumption aimed at anyone in specific ...
at this point it may not even be an assumption , cause instructions set by IRCC are very clear on duration you are allowed to be outside the country.
 

satya10

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Nov 13, 2014
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Simple, take a flight, and attend the ceremonies and test here. End of the thread.
 

eatpraylove

Star Member
Jan 5, 2017
180
31
P*S. I sense an assumption of dishonesty. I don't think anyone would want to conceal the fact they are abroad to cheat the system. The question was asked to get varied opinions. Worst case scenario, oath would be delayed until the restrictions are lifted and applicants abroad can fly back safely without compromising the health of Canadians and integrity of the citizenship process.
P.S Fair systems that effectively work , are based around assumptions of dishonesty... otherwise if everyone is trusted , why would there be an oath to do good. why would they require document verification systems, a phone interview would be enough to land you your citizenship while you are somewhere else.
This system is based on fairness, unfortunately some people play around (has always been and will always be) i am not pinpointing fingers at anyone .. my reply was specifically mentioning that such cases may not happen for reasons so and so ..
 

tankala13

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Feb 22, 2012
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AGAIN, MOST will want to SKIP this bureaucratic history tangent . . .


As noted in the previous post above, what the Harper government did, in effect, was merge two separate problems in the citizenship application process and make the huge MESS that almost crashed the system in 2012.

The first, and actually much lesser part of the MESS, was fraud, first the government's failure to effectively screen for or interdict citizenship fraud, and then the government's overreaction and draconian measures implemented once the nature and scope of the fraud problem became apparent.

BUT then there was the REAL, and MUCH LARGER PROBLEM, the REAL MESS, which was DECADES of inconsistent and sometimes incoherent decision-making derived from three very different and incompatible interpretations of what was required to meet the "residency requirement" to qualify for the Section 5(1) grant of citizenship. This went back to the 1980s and inconsistent decisions by different Federal Court justices. Some ruled that the way the Citizenship Act prescribed calculating days was, in effect, a physical presence requirement, requiring PRs to have been physically present IN Canada at least 1095 days within the FOUR years preceding the date of application. But other Federal Court justices ruled that all that was required was for the PR to be a resident in Canada for at least three years. There were two different approaches for this as well, which meant that in contested cases (those applications CIC did not refer to a CJ recommending approval, or the CJ did not accept the CIC recommendation, and which thus went into a residency hearing with a Citizenship Judge), the CJ could choose which of the three approaches, or "tests" for residency to apply.

The main difference, and the cause of much confusion, leading to all sorts of incongruous and often outright conflicting outcomes, was basically whether the Citizenship Judge applied a physical presence test or applied one of the residency tests.

Overall, my impression (I did not start following this stuff until around 2008) is that prior to Harper government, and perhaps for a few years into his early minority governments, CIC was essentially approaching applications using a residency test, not the actual physical presence test, but by 2007 or 2008 the Harper government was getting more strict. Between the time I began the process of actually immigrating in 2007 (I had been spending extended periods of time here for many years prior to that) and when I actually landed and became a PR (January 2009), citizenship timeline discussions in the forums went from concerns if it went longer than SIX MONTHS, to increasing discontent that for many it was as long as or longer than a YEAR . . . and by 2010 even that seemed FAST compared to how things were going.

In any event, again, the main difference, and the cause of much confusion, leading to all sorts of incongruous and often outright conflicting outcomes, was basically whether the Citizenship Judge applied a physical presence test or applied one of the residency tests. And I am not sure, but it appears that this got a lot worse around 2008 due to the Harper government more aggressively pushing the strict physical presence test.

If the CJ applied a physical presence test, the application was denied if the applicant fell short of 1095 days actual presence even if that was by just one day.

If the CJ applied a residency test, the applicant might be approved for the grant of citizenship even though he or she had been physically in Canada many, many days fewer than 1095.

Indeed, some of the cases which the Minister appealed (and in those days, appeals by the Minister were about as many as appeals by denied applicants), AND LOST (that is, cases in which the PR was approved for citizenship by a CJ but which the Minister appealed, and the Federal Court upheld the CJ's decision, requiring CIC to complete the grant of citizenship), involved applicants who had been HUNDREDS of days SHORT. I do not recall the precise numbers in the most extreme cases, but some involved individuals who had only been in Canada a few hundred days. I vaguely recall at least one case in which the applicant had been actually IN Canada no more than several months.

So there were cases, many of them, in which the applicant was denied citizenship even though he or she was physically present in Canada well over 1000 days, within the four relevant years, while many other applicants were granted citizenship even though they were outside Canada more than TWO of the relevant four years.

Since Federal Court decisions do NOT establish binding precedent, and there was NO appeal of the Federal Court decisions allowed, there was no resolution of the conflicting tests. (One of the other big changes implemented in 2015, maybe this one took effect in 2014, was the addition of provisions allowing for an appeal to the Federal Court of Appeal if there are "certified" questions . . . so for the last five years or so, there is a way to resolve conflicting decisions by different Federal Courts.)

And back then CIC had far fewer tools to verify an applicant's claims about travel history. Even by 2010, or so, CBSA client entry-into-Canada records were typically far shy of complete (while it was 9/11/2001 that triggered changes resulting in more thoroughly capturing client entry data, that took many years . . . prior to the fall of 2001 I crossed the border many dozens of times without showing any identification at all, not once over the course of many years, and even continued to do so often for several years after that . . . and this or that PoE, such as one on Wolfe Island, near Kingston, Ontario, for ferries from Cape Vincent in New York, did not routinely scan or otherwise capture a record for entering travelers).

It was a total mess. The safe approach, for those applying for citizenship, was to WAIT and apply ONLY after they met the actual physical presence test. But there was, nonetheless, a steady stream of applicants applying based on having established and maintained a residence in Canada for at least three years, even though they spent a lot of time abroad.

There was NO WAY to know which test would be applied until a Citizenship Judge decided which test would be applied. CJs did not have to explain why they were applying one test versus the other. The CJ did not even have to inform applicants during the hearing which test would be applied. They could simply decide which test to use. And there was nothing that required a CJ to consistently apply the same test . . . a CJ could apply the residency test to an immigrant from the UK and, for the very next case, say an immigrant from Pakistan, apply the strict actual physical presence test. All the case law required was that the CJ clearly articulate which test was used and how he or she decided the case applying that test.

INJUSTICE was, well, all too common.

Applicants relying on meeting a residency test without meeting the physical presence test were called "shortfall" applications. For whatever reason, the information about qualifying for citizenship published online by CIC only warned that such applications would have to be decided by a Citizenship Judge. But at the time ALL citizenship applications were decided by a CJ. All grants of citizenship had to be approved by a CJ. The caution did not clarify that shortfall applications would almost for sure be issued RQ and referred to a CJ residency hearing, let alone that CIC itself would argue to the CJ that the application should be denied because it did not meet the physical presence test.

That NOT knowing which test would apply was particularly problematic. Applicants going into a hearing with the CJ did not know, not even then, which standard or test would apply. Which was crazy. I often emphasize that Canada is a rule-of-law country, and to my view it is indeed, and high up compared to other countries which purport to be a rule-of-law country. While perfection is not expected, in this particular aspect, back then, Canada fell rather far short.

There was no shortage of injustice. In decision after decision, many Federal Court justices implored Parliament to fix the problem. This was a problem that persisted for over a QUARTER CENTURY but became especially problematic after the mid-2000s when, under the Harper government, CIC began the policy of referring almost all shortfall applications for a CJ residency hearing and recommending the CJ deny any applicant with a shortfall. So by 2008 to 2010, yes, yes indeed, citizenship application processing was a REAL MESS. . .

. . . and then CIC realized how badly it had dropped the ball in screening for fraud.

Finally, legislation introduced in early 2014, adopted in June of that year, and then not taking effect until June 2015, implemented the actual physical presence requirement.

[end bureaucratic history lesson 101, part two]
It's a good read. Nice to learn all the history behind it to appreciate something we have now. People these days just pass judgments/opinions without understanding the history behind it. It bugs me a lot. So nice of you to share this as I don't think anyone else would take time to make people understand that what they have now is much better than what it was few years back :)
 

screech339

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some countries don't allow their citizen to leave their country now, like Australia
If the applicants actually stayed in Canada until they gotten citizenship, they wouldn't have that problem, would they. Applying for citizenship on their way to the airport is still abuse of the system/process no matter how any one slice it.
 
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issteven

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Jan 2, 2014
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If the applicants actually stayed in Canada until they gotten citizenship, they wouldn't have that problem, would they. Applying for citizenship on their way to the airport is still abuse of the system/process no matter any one slice it.
if it is allowed by rules, i don't see any problem. if it is not allowed, it should state that in the rules.

The world plays by rules, right?
 

screech339

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if it is allowed by rules, i don't see any problem. if it is not allowed, it should state that in the rules.

The world plays by rules, right?
There is a different between following the rules and abusing the rules.
 
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screech339

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Rules are binary 0 or 1, right? where does "abusing" fall into this range
No different from someone working long enough to "quit" their jobs to collect IE every time. If you can't distinguish the abuse of the system, then you are part of the problem.
 

Das67

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No different from someone working long enough to "quit" their jobs to collect IE every time. If you can't distinguish the abuse of the system, then you are part of the problem.
If you quit your job you cannot apply for EI, you may apply but you are not goint to get paid. Your ROE will clearly stats the reason for issuing it and there is no way you will collect EI.
 

issteven

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No different from someone working long enough to "quit" their jobs to collect IE every time. If you can't distinguish the abuse of the system, then you are part of the problem.
if a rule can be so easily abused, that's the problem of the rule itself, it needs to be refined to avoid abuse if any.
 
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screech339

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if a rule can be so easily abused, that's the problem of the rule itself, it needs to be refined to avoid abuse if any.
That was why Harper added a rule / law requirement to "REMAIN IN CANADA" for the whole citizenship process from start to finish. There was clearly an abuse of the process and the Liberals has removed that requirement and now we are all seeing the abuse of the process back in play. Seems the Liberals don't mind processes being abuse at all.
 
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