+1(514) 937-9445 or Toll-free (Canada & US) +1 (888) 947-9445

Can train ticket fine reported on police report stop PR admissability?

bimkomoe

Newbie
Dec 12, 2018
2
0
Hello. If one was fined for not having a train ticket in the UK in 2014 at the age of 20 years, can this be classified as a non admissible crime? This offence and the fine is the only crime on the UK police report issued. Kindly assist as I am confused.
 

foodie69

Champion Member
Dec 18, 2015
2,806
828
Come on..think again

Inadmissable for not having a train ticket? That is laughable.
Murder, rape, DUI, etc etc etc, yes, but not this.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bimkomoe

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,252
3,018
Hello. If one was fined for not having a train ticket in the UK in 2014 at the age of 20 years, can this be classified as a non admissible crime? This offence and the fine is the only crime on the UK police report issued. Kindly assist as I am confused.
Is this about inadmissibility for a Foreign National or for a Canadian PR? There is some overlap in what constitutes inadmissibility for FNs and PRs, but if a Canadian PR commits an offence abroad for which the only punishment is a fine, that does not make a PR inadmissible.

If, in contrast, the question is about whether the offence makes a FN (such as a FN applying for PR) inadmissible, the threshold is much lower.

The fact of any offence on one's record is NOT laughable. Hopefully this was indeed more like an infraction than an offence, or at worst would constitute a summary offence in Canada. Still, be sure to disclose it in any application asking about arrests, charges, or such.

In any event, the question is whether the offence (and it does appear to be an offence given there is a criminal record) was one that would constitute an indictable offence in Canada, if committed in Canada, including any so-called hybrid offence (which can be prosecuted as either an indictable or summary offence, but for inadmissibility purposes is considered an indictable offence since, yes, it can be prosecuted by indictment).

I am NOT familiar with the UK criminal law and do not know if this was considered a type of theft offence, or constituted some other category of offence. And I do not know the grades of theft offences in Canada, or what other category of offence it might be, so I do not know if the same acts were done in Canada whether they would constitute an indictable or hybrid offence in Canada.

BUT that is the main question: are the elements of the offence in the UK the same as the elements in what would constitute an indictable (including hybrid) offence in Canada?

The problem tends to be that Canada has a lot of so-called hybrid offences, which are usually minor breaches of law and prosecuted summarily, but since they can be prosecuted (and if the specific facts are more serious, they will be) as an indictable offence, for purposes of Canadian immigration law they are indictable (again, since they can indeed be prosecuted by indictment, even if usually prosecuted as a summary offence). AND that results in inadmissibility.

Short of consulting with an experienced Canadian immigration lawyer who can review the specific records involved (the client's description of these matters is NOT enough, given the importance of the official details which can best be discerned from actual court records), many will go ahead and make an application, honestly disclosing the offence and known details about it, and see how it goes. One of the advantages of consulting with a lawyer, however, is the lawyer can better explain rehabilitation standards or procedures, which can mean even if the offence was one that makes a person inadmissible, there is the possibility that after a certain amount of time or meeting other conditions, it will no longer result in inadmissibility. Thus, for example, among the details that can matter is HOW LONG ago it happened, and how long ago the matter was completely closed in the court's records. And so on.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bimkomoe

bimkomoe

Newbie
Dec 12, 2018
2
0
Is this about inadmissibility for a Foreign National or for a Canadian PR? There is some overlap in what constitutes inadmissibility for FNs and PRs, but if a Canadian PR commits an offence abroad for which the only punishment is a fine, that does not make a PR inadmissible.

If, in contrast, the question is about whether the offence makes a FN (such as a FN applying for PR) inadmissible, the threshold is much lower.

The fact of any offence on one's record is NOT laughable. Hopefully this was indeed more like an infraction than an offence, or at worst would constitute a summary offence in Canada. Still, be sure to disclose it in any application asking about arrests, charges, or such.

In any event, the question is whether the offence (and it does appear to be an offence given there is a criminal record) was one that would constitute an indictable offence in Canada, if committed in Canada, including any so-called hybrid offence (which can be prosecuted as either an indictable or summary offence, but for inadmissibility purposes is considered an indictable offence since, yes, it can be prosecuted by indictment).

I am NOT familiar with the UK criminal law and do not know if this was considered a type of theft offence, or constituted some other category of offence. And I do not know the grades of theft offences in Canada, or what other category of offence it might be, so I do not know if the same acts were done in Canada whether they would constitute an indictable or hybrid offence in Canada.

BUT that is the main question: are the elements of the offence in the UK the same as the elements in what would constitute an indictable (including hybrid) offence in Canada?

The problem tends to be that Canada has a lot of so-called hybrid offences, which are usually minor breaches of law and prosecuted summarily, but since they can be prosecuted (and if the specific facts are more serious, they will be) as an indictable offence, for purposes of Canadian immigration law they are indictable (again, since they can indeed be prosecuted by indictment, even if usually prosecuted as a summary offence). AND that results in inadmissibility.

Short of consulting with an experienced Canadian immigration lawyer who can review the specific records involved (the client's description of these matters is NOT enough, given the importance of the official details which can best be discerned from actual court records), many will go ahead and make an application, honestly disclosing the offence and known details about it, and see how it goes. One of the advantages of consulting with a lawyer, however, is the lawyer can better explain rehabilitation standards or procedures, which can mean even if the offence was one that makes a person inadmissible, there is the possibility that after a certain amount of time or meeting other conditions, it will no longer result in inadmissibility. Thus, for example, among the details that can matter is HOW LONG ago it happened, and how long ago the matter was completely closed in the court's records. And so on.
Is this about inadmissibility for a Foreign National or for a Canadian PR? There is some overlap in what constitutes inadmissibility for FNs and PRs, but if a Canadian PR commits an offence abroad for which the only punishment is a fine, that does not make a PR inadmissible.

If, in contrast, the question is about whether the offence makes a FN (such as a FN applying for PR) inadmissible, the threshold is much lower.

The fact of any offence on one's record is NOT laughable. Hopefully this was indeed more like an infraction than an offence, or at worst would constitute a summary offence in Canada. Still, be sure to disclose it in any application asking about arrests, charges, or such.

In any event, the question is whether the offence (and it does appear to be an offence given there is a criminal record) was one that would constitute an indictable offence in Canada, if committed in Canada, including any so-called hybrid offence (which can be prosecuted as either an indictable or summary offence, but for inadmissibility purposes is considered an indictable offence since, yes, it can be prosecuted by indictment).

I am NOT familiar with the UK criminal law and do not know if this was considered a type of theft offence, or constituted some other category of offence. And I do not know the grades of theft offences in Canada, or what other category of offence it might be, so I do not know if the same acts were done in Canada whether they would constitute an indictable or hybrid offence in Canada.

BUT that is the main question: are the elements of the offence in the UK the same as the elements in what would constitute an indictable (including hybrid) offence in Canada?

The problem tends to be that Canada has a lot of so-called hybrid offences, which are usually minor breaches of law and prosecuted summarily, but since they can be prosecuted (and if the specific facts are more serious, they will be) as an indictable offence, for purposes of Canadian immigration law they are indictable (again, since they can indeed be prosecuted by indictment, even if usually prosecuted as a summary offence). AND that results in inadmissibility.

Short of consulting with an experienced Canadian immigration lawyer who can review the specific records involved (the client's description of these matters is NOT enough, given the importance of the official details which can best be discerned from actual court records), many will go ahead and make an application, honestly disclosing the offence and known details about it, and see how it goes. One of the advantages of consulting with a lawyer, however, is the lawyer can better explain rehabilitation standards or procedures, which can mean even if the offence was one that makes a person inadmissible, there is the possibility that after a certain amount of time or meeting other conditions, it will no longer result in inadmissibility. Thus, for example, among the details that can matter is HOW LONG ago it happened, and how long ago the matter was completely closed in the court's records. And so on.
Thank you for your comments and detailed insight. Your point is clear and I will seek professional legal support to be on the safe side.
 

zardoz

VIP Member
Feb 2, 2013
13,304
2,166
Canada
Category........
FAM
Visa Office......
London
App. Filed.......
16-02-2013
VISA ISSUED...
31-07-2013
LANDED..........
09-11-2013
Hello. If one was fined for not having a train ticket in the UK in 2014 at the age of 20 years, can this be classified as a non admissible crime? This offence and the fine is the only crime on the UK police report issued. Kindly assist as I am confused.
It's a Magistrates' Court level offence in the UK with, IIRC, £1000 maximum penalty. Almost certainly not going to make you inadmissible.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,252
3,018
For clarity: I am addressing this further assuming it is about Foreign National inadmissibility, such as for someone applying to become a Canadian PR, not about what might result in a Canadian PR becoming inadmissible.

It's a Magistrates' Court level offence in the UK with, IIRC, £1000 maximum penalty. Almost certainly not going to make you inadmissible.
Your conclusion may very well be correct.

If I was to guess, I'd guess it is correct.

And similarly, many FNs in this kind of situation (a minor breach of law resulting in a small fine) are likely to go ahead and make an application for a visa or such, of course disclosing the charge/record in their application, and then see how it goes, most expecting no problem. Doing so reasonably expecting little or NO problem.

For the OP, here, the encouragement is indeed likely to be well-founded.

That said, in general, however, how an offence is actually handled in the country where it occurred, or which court handles it, does NOT determine its effect for purposes of Canadian immigration.

That is, the conclusion does not necessarily follow from the predicate; that is, the import of this relative to FN inadmissibility does NOT depend on which court handles these matters in the foreign jurisdiction.

Questions about criminal inadmissibility for FNs are tricky, rule-driven, and not readily intuited, and are rarely suitable for guessing. (And if there is a formal police criminal history record, it is absolutely not laughable.) What matters is the Canadian equivalent.

The possible disposition, probable disposition, and the actual disposition in the country where the violation occurs, can be information, respectively, from which a reasonably likely inference might be made. For example, a small fine signals a minor breach of law, which is quite likely to be similarly categorized in Canada, thus as either an infraction or Summary Offence. No inadmissibility issue triggered.

And, disposition in a venue/court which only handles what are typically the equivalent of an infraction or Summary Offence in Canada, suggests the likelihood it is a violation for which the Canadian equivalent likely is an infraction or Summary Offence. NO inadmissibility issue triggered.

BUT it is important to recognize that what matters is THE CANADIAN EQUIVALENT, and NOT which court handled the matter in the other country, NOT what the disposition could be, usually is, or what it was in the other country (unless there is a total discharge without any conviction).

And when considering the Canadian equivalent, it warrants remembering that many, many rather minor offences in Canada, even many for which the charges can be handled by being issued a ticket and the payment of a fine, that is as a Summary Offence, in the Canadian "Criminal Code" many of these are hybrid offences which can be prosecuted by indictment, even if it is rare to prosecute them by indictment. AND these "hybrid" offences are considered indictable offences for purposes of Canadian immigration. Triggering inadmissibility (unless rehabilitation conditions are met).

Determining the Canadian equivalent is easy for some violations and offences. For many, however, it is NOT so easy. The specific elements of the offence must be compared with elements in similar offences as defined in the Canadian Criminal Code.

As I alluded, the court that handles the cases in the foreign jurisdiction (such as the "Magistrates' Court" in the UK) can be a big clue. BUT that is NOT what matters.

Thus, what is considered and handled as a rather minor offence in another country may nonetheless constitute a hybrid offence in Canada, and thus be considered an indictable offence, triggering FN inadmissibility.

It can work in the opposite way as well. For example, a failure to satisfy certain types of obligations can be considered a serious offence in some countries, even resulting in significant periods of incarceration; in particular, the failure to pay certain kinds of debt can be prosecuted as fraud, a serious type of fraud, resulting in relatively severe punishment. This conduct is NOT a crime under the Canadian criminal code. So a police record showing a conviction for this type of offence, no matter how serious it is treated in the country where it happened, does NOT trigger a FN inadmissibility issue in Canada, because there is no equivalent indictable offence in Canadian law.

As I previously commented, I do NOT KNOW much at all about UK criminal law. And I do not know the Canadian criminal code much either. So I do not have any opinion about what the Canadian equivalent is in the OP's situation. As noted, I'd guess that @zardoz's conclusion is correct. But I'd do so emphasizing this is just a guess, cautioning that knowing which court handles such matters in the UK is just a clue but NOT determinative.