born in USSR confusion

[zeeshan35]

I think we are going more into a philosophical discussion about nationality and citizenship instead of sticking to his main question he wants to answer.
Lets wait to hear from the one who posed the question as to what his thoughts are after getting all the inputs. He knows the citizenship he has at the moment and can answer that question.

 

[ukulele]

I think we are going more into a philosophical discussion about nationality and citizenship instead of sticking to his main question he wants to answer.
Lets wait to hear from the one who posed the question as to what his thoughts are after getting all the inputs. He knows the citizenship he has at the moment and can answer that question.

This particular issue has been discussed for years... I have been in Canada for 7 years and I have always heard this question over and over again... Should i put Russia or USSR? Should I put Ukraine or USSR etc.

It might seem to be philosophical, but it is not. It is very much a legal grey area... I wish IRCC clarified it on every form by a simple sentence like: "...for those of you who used to be a citizen of one country but that country ceased to exist blah blah blha..." A little instruction would help...

It does not only affect former USSR countries, if affects former Yugoslavia, it affects Germany before 1989 (not sure what it was exactly, but a very close friend of mine was born in the East Germany in a family of a Russian Soldier, but he had the same question over and over again until he became a citizen. Did he have German and USSR citizenships, or only 1? Or maybe 3 since his mother was Jewish? He still does not know the answer to that, since he was a baby, and whatever paperwork his parents got for him, he was stuck with that. And trust me, back in the day, you could be confused as hell with the bureaucracy that those soviet states had. The good news is he is now Canadian, and he did not get into any trouble by saying he was a Russian citizen all along).

The bottom line here is IRCC is at least aware of all this and SEEMS to be lenient towards mistakes made on these grounds, if those could be called mistakes at all. For one, I will be able to tell you how my application went if/when I get my Canadian citizenship.

So to sum it up, it is philosophical, but at the same time, this philosophy caused me many a sleepless night... I thought my PR was going to be rejected because of this (that's how paranoid I was ) And not only me...

Time will give us the answers... At the end, no citizenship will save you from the inevitable outcome we all share... Muahahah

 

[links18]

If you think citizenship issues surrounding the former USSR and its subsequently independent republics are confusing, try figuring them out for someone born in a British colony, to British parents, that subsequently became indepedent, but not after going through two different iterations of semi-statehood under British suzerainty with two different national citizenships all the while remaining British subjects.

 

[ukulele]

If you think citizenship issues surrounding the former USSR and its subsequently independent republics are confusing, try figuring them out for someone born in a British colony, to British parents, that subsequently became indepedent, but not after going through two different iterations of semi-statehood under British suzerainty with two different national citizenships all the while remaining British subjects.

Lol. Okay, I admit, my problems are nothing... You killed it, bro

 

[Natan]

From personal experience:
I was born in Russia (during USSR existence) and always written in any CIC applications the place of birth - "Russia", and all my documents issued by CIC list USSR as place of birth.
I assume that there must be an algorithm in their programs that converts things "USSR" automatically. And I never had any problems related to this USSR vs. National republics place of birth/citizenship issues.

As I stated in my first post, the CORRECT answer, regardless of what other answers IRCC may, or may not, accept, is that OP was a citizen of the USSR from the time of birth through 1991, and from 1991 to the present is a citizen of Ukraine. It is guaranteed that that is a correct answer to the question asked on the citizenship form. All other answers are "hoped" to be correct, but those hopes are complete conjecture, as there is no guarantee that it is and that IRCC will accept it in OP's particular application.

There is only one guaranteed correct answer to this question, in OP's particular situation.

 

[Natan]

My PR card at the back says: COB: Latvia (should have been USSR if we are technical about it).

In Canada, COB is the name of the country today. So, for instance, someone born in Bialystok, Poland in 1930 would have a COB of Ukraine, because Bialystok is now in Ukraine. Just as someone born in Danzig, Germany in 1930 would have a COB of Poland, as Danzig is now Gdansk, Poland.

Citizenship, however, is a different matter. In the post World War II era, most people possess a definitive citizenship. And while one's citizenship may change when different countries take over jurisdiction of where one lives, that does not wipe the former citizenship from one's historical record. (It is a rare occurrence to have one's citizenship retroactively revoked.)

 

[ukulele]

In Canada, COB is the name of the country today. So, for instance, someone born in Bialystok, Poland in 1930 would have a COB of Ukraine, because Bialystok is now in Ukraine. Just as someone born in Danzig, Germany in 1930 would have a COB of Poland, as Danzig is now Gdansk, Poland.

Citizenship, however, is a different matter. In the post World War II era, most people possess a definitive citizenship. And while one's citizenship may change when different countries take over jurisdiction of where one lives, that does not wipe the former citizenship from one's historical record. (It is a rare occurrence to have one's citizenship retroactively revoked.)

Once again - grey area... You read the comment up there where the guy says he puts Russia as his COB and they still put USSR for him...

I do get your points, but you seem to refuse to admit that even IRCC does not have 1 policy on this... It is chaos...

Once again... Yes, the safest option is to mention USSR as the citizenship BUT what about the fact that his USSR citizenship automatically became Ukrainian citizenship in 1991 and it is obvious and implied anyways? It's not like he is hiding it, it is implied...

Okay, I think this is enough for me with these USSR guess games... I am out...

 

[zeeshan35]

This was a good discussion to have for all of us. I definitely empathize with you ukulele spending sleepless nights regarding this. I didnt want to undermine the conversation by calling it just "philosophical". This is a grey area and depending on the officer reviewing your case, which in most cases he is lenient regarding these issues.
It should be up to IRCC to clarify this issue. They cant let the public in limbo regarding issues like this. If we get a chance we should leave this feedback which will in turn improve the visibility on this issue. In future no one should should stress about a issue that we know is a grey area.

 

[koziamorda1]

As I stated in my first post, the CORRECT answer, regardless of what other answers IRCC may, or may not, accept, is that OP was a citizen of the USSR from the time of birth through 1991, and from 1991 to the present is a citizen of Ukraine. It is guaranteed that that is a correct answer to the question asked on the citizenship form. All other answers are "hoped" to be correct, but those hopes are complete conjecture, as there is no guarantee that it is and that IRCC will accept it in OP's particular application.

There is only one guaranteed correct answer to this question, in OP's particular situation.

I absolutely agree with you. I think you provided exhaustive explanation. Also, a good reminder to very carefully study your official document, and usually you will find all the answers there in official records

 

[Natan]

but you seem to refuse to admit that even IRCC does not have 1 policy on this... It is chaos...

I totally agree with you. And it's not just Canada, other countries have the same inadequate policy about this sort of thing.

 

[links18]

Semi-academic question: Someone born in the Tsarist empire in the territory of what is now Lithuania (Kaunas) who emigrated to North America in 1913 (i.e. prior to the Revolution), but who did not naturalize until the 1940s, was a citizen of what country between 1919-and their naturalization? Or were they stateless?

 

[Natan]

Semi-academic question: Someone born in the Tsarist empire in the territory of what is now Lithuania (Kaunas) who emigrated to North America in 1913 (i.e. prior to the Revolution), but who did not naturalize until the 1940s, was a citizen of what country between 1919-and their naturalization? Or were they stateless?

It is a very interesting question. My observations:

1. Before the end of World War II, citizenship in most countries was not a well defined aspect of law (though it was in some countries).
2. In many monarchies, subjecthood was well defined in law, but citizenship was not.
3. Before the end of World War II, statelessness was not well defined, nor did it have the same sort of impact it does today.

All things considered, I would not consider this person to have been "stateless", but rather, to have lacked the protection of any state at that time. On the other hand, if they were filling out a Canadian citizenship application today, I would recommend that they list their status as "stateless" during the time they lacked any state's protection, or as the citizenship they had when they first emigrated from their country. (It's a difficult call to make.)

Addendum: Before World War I, many people could not accurately answer the question, "What country are you a citizen of?" Many people would not even have known what "country" they live in. What they would have known is that they pay taxes to the taxman, and subjugated peoples would know their region was occupied, though not necessarily by whom.

 

[Natan]

As there is confusion and everyone has a different opinion, just to be safe include an explanation letter, it covers you, and no risk of misrepresentation.

Call cic as well, as mentioned above, you won't be the first one to contact them, they'll have a good idea of what to do. Besides you'll have official advice that you can follow. It's idiotic to think that they won't have an answer.

It is important to note that call centre staff are not authorized to provide legal advice (which is what this is). Further, their answers are not authoritative -- that means their advice is not necessarily accurate and following their advice (even if you recorded the call) cannot be used in one's defense. They are only equipped to provide general, generic advice that should cover the majority of situations. (It is fairly guaranteed that former USSR citizen applicants do not constitute the majority of situations.)

Answering the question of citizenships is straight forward, in OPs situation. OP used to be a citizen of the USSR and is currently a citizen of Ukraine. The dates of acquisition and loss of OP's citizenships in these two countries are definite and known. These are the facts, and they are the only facts that matter to OP.

 

[links18]

It is a very interesting question. My observations:

1. Before the end of World War II, citizenship in most countries was not a well defined aspect of law (though it was in some countries).
2. In many monarchies, subjecthood was well defined in law, but citizenship was not.
3. Before the end of World War II, statelessness was not well defined, nor did it have the same sort of impact it does today.

All things considered, I would not consider this person to have been "stateless", but rather, to have lacked the protection of any state at that time. On the other hand, if they were filling out a Canadian citizenship application today, I would recommend that they list their status as "stateless" during the time they lacked any state's protection, or as the citizenship they had when they first emigrated from their country. (It's a difficult call to make.)

Addendum: Before World War I, many people could not accurately answer the question, "What country are you a citizen of?" Many people would not even have known what "country" they live in. What they would have known is that they pay taxes to the taxman, and subjugated peoples would know their region was occupied, though not necessarily by whom.

Yes, things were different back then. I have read that many Ukrainian immigrants to Canada in this period were not considered to be Ukrainian at all by Canadian authorities, but Austrian, as they mostly emigrated from Ukrainian speaking regions of the Austrian empire.

 

[Natan]

Yes, things were different back then. I have read that many Ukrainian immigrants to Canada in this period were not considered to be Ukrainian at all by Canadian authorities, but Austrian, as they mostly emigrated from Ukrainian speaking regions of the Austrian empire.

Today, they're mostly known as Rusyns/Ruthenes (Русины) or Rusnaks (Руснакы).