+1(514) 937-9445 or Toll-free (Canada & US) +1 (888) 947-9445

Arrived on PRTD, PR card expired, need PR card for MSP

Dec 11, 2009
6
0
Hi guys,

I think I have a bit of a unique situation and was wondering if anyone had any insight.

I am an Australian citizen, who lived in Canada for approximately 10 years and became a permanent resident towards the end of that. I met a German girl while I was here and we moved to Germany together for 3 years.

I have now moved back to Canada on a PR travel document due to a recently expired PR card, to renew my card and work.

I met the obligation for days on the PRTD (730) but now that I am filling out the paperwork for my PR renewal I am a few days shy due to overseas vacations, which I didn't need to list on my PRTD. I'm guessing this is a problem for renewal? I would have returned several months earlier but was unable due to Covid.

I also have another, more severe problem. I want to reactivate my MSP coverage but both Service Canada and MSP have said that I need a valid PR card. If it takes 2 years til I am eligible for a PR card again then I am without MSP for 2 years. How is this possible as it is against the law? Is there a way to solve this?

Thank you everyone for your help.

Regards,

Alex
 

PMM

VIP Member
Jun 30, 2005
25,494
1,946
Hi

Hi guys,

I think I have a bit of a unique situation and was wondering if anyone had any insight.

I am an Australian citizen, who lived in Canada for approximately 10 years and became a permanent resident towards the end of that. I met a German girl while I was here and we moved to Germany together for 3 years.

I have now moved back to Canada on a PR travel document due to a recently expired PR card, to renew my card and work.

I met the obligation for days on the PRTD (730) but now that I am filling out the paperwork for my PR renewal I am a few days shy due to overseas vacations, which I didn't need to list on my PRTD. I'm guessing this is a problem for renewal? I would have returned several months earlier but was unable due to Covid.

I also have another, more severe problem. I want to reactivate my MSP coverage but both Service Canada and MSP have said that I need a valid PR card. If it takes 2 years til I am eligible for a PR card again then I am without MSP for 2 years. How is this possible as it is against the law? Is there a way to solve this?

Thank you everyone for your help.

Regards,

Alex
1. Wait the few days until you are in compliance. Then apply for a new PR card. Processing time is posted as a 100 days, it may be longer due to Covid. You can try requested expedited processing
 
Dec 11, 2009
6
0
Hi



1. Wait the few days until you are in compliance. Then apply for a new PR card. Processing time is posted as a 100 days, it may be longer due to Covid. You can try requested expedited processing
The problem is its not a few days. I have to wait over a year, then 100 days, before I have the eligible amount of days to apply for my PR card and thereafter my MSP.
 

scylla

VIP Member
Jun 8, 2010
92,541
20,360
Toronto
Category........
Visa Office......
Buffalo
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
28-05-2010
AOR Received.
19-08-2010
File Transfer...
28-06-2010
Passport Req..
01-10-2010
VISA ISSUED...
05-10-2010
LANDED..........
05-10-2010
The problem is its not a few days. I have to wait over a year, then 100 days, before I have the eligible amount of days to apply for my PR card and thereafter my MSP.
Don't submit the application to renew your PR card until you have at least 730 days in the last five years. If you are a few days short, that will be a problem.

I can't help with the MSP question. Hopefully someone else can.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,252
3,018
Hi guys,

I think I have a bit of a unique situation and was wondering if anyone had any insight.

I am an Australian citizen, who lived in Canada for approximately 10 years and became a permanent resident towards the end of that. I met a German girl while I was here and we moved to Germany together for 3 years.

I have now moved back to Canada on a PR travel document due to a recently expired PR card, to renew my card and work.

I met the obligation for days on the PRTD (730) but now that I am filling out the paperwork for my PR renewal I am a few days shy due to overseas vacations, which I didn't need to list on my PRTD. I'm guessing this is a problem for renewal? I would have returned several months earlier but was unable due to Covid.

I also have another, more severe problem. I want to reactivate my MSP coverage but both Service Canada and MSP have said that I need a valid PR card. If it takes 2 years til I am eligible for a PR card again then I am without MSP for 2 years. How is this possible as it is against the law? Is there a way to solve this?
I agree that the SAFEST approach is that offered by @scylla
"Don't submit the application to renew your PR card until you have at least 730 days in the last five years."​

The rest of that is not so simple or definitive. In particular, it is NOT necessarily the case that "If you are a few days short, that will be a problem."

It can be a problem. That is, there is a RISK that IRCC will conduct a formal Residency Obligation examination and calculation when processing the PR card application, and if AS of THAT DATE, the date of that formal RO calculation, you are still short of meeting the PR RO, issue you a Departure Order terminating your PR status in Canada. (There is a right of appeal, as discussed at length in other topics here.)

But the details can matter, and certain details are likely to matter a lot. The range in RISK can vary from just some RISK to a fairly HIGH RISK.

Quantifying the risks is very tricky, and in a forum setting like this, too speculative to be done in anyway that is likely to help much.

We can point to some key factors which will tend to push the RISKS in one direction or the other.

The biggest factor, for example, depends a lot on just precisely how many days short. In this regard, no advanced degrees in rocket science necessary to see the trajectory of risk compared to bigger shortfalls. The more the PR is short, the bigger the risks.

And for how much longer the PR will continue to be short can be a factor. Consider the PR whose days IN Canada are in the last three years or so, for example, and for whom each new day IN Canada adds another day to the count of days IN Canada (compared, for example, to the PR who was in Canada five years ago, so for each new day in Canada is also losing a day, as it falls outside the five years that count, and thus for whom for some time will have the same calculation of total days . . . until the PR reaches the date that days from five years past are no longer falling out of the calculation). If this PR is more than a "few" days short, but even two months short, it is very likely that applying today is NOT going to be a problem. By the time IRCC opens the application, assuming the PR STAYS in Canada, the PR will be in compliance or so close that the PR will be in compliance before any scheduled RO examination. And if the PR is in compliance by the date of the formal calculation, that means the previous breach of RO is cured, and there is no basis to find the PR inadmissible.

That is a fairly complex example, and in real life there are likely to be some wrinkles, some twists and turns, making it tricky to evaluate the odds. Which leads back to the important key thing that @scylla stated, which again (since it is important enough to warrant emphasis), the SAFE approach is to WAIT until the RO is met before making a PR card application (and BEFORE making a sponsorship application for PR for a spouse).

And even in that example, it warrants remembering that the date of an application does not necessarily correlate to how soon a new card is actually delivered. Not only will waiting longer to apply reduce, and eventually eliminate the RISKS, doing that will also reduce the RISK of non-routine processing, so that the new PR card is issued and delivered faster . . . waiting to apply can lead to getting the PR card sooner.

BUT . . . there are many other scenarios, each with its own twists and turns. For example, depending on how long the PR card has been expired, in the province of Ontario, for example, an expired PR card is accepted as proof of status for establishing OHIP eligibility.

And otherwise, depending on just how "few" days short the PR is, compared to many other factors, including just how big a difference it makes for the individual, whether they have a valid PR card or not (such as already noted, health coverage can be obtained in Ontario; if in a province where health coverage cannot be obtained, then a factor is whether the individual can get by without health insurance), the PR can make a PR card application relying on relief from the RO based on H&C considerations. That is, the PR can choose to take some RISK because the PR really needs a new PR card.

But again, calculating those RISKS is very tricky. Considering whether to go that route virtually demands the help of a qualified, experienced, reputable immigration LAWYER (not a consultant), someone who can go over every detail in confidence and who has the experience to judge these things.

NOTE: I have barely scratched the surface of relevant factors. I note, for example, that you say "I have now moved back to Canada . . . to renew my card and work." Among the many factors which can have influence is the nature and extent to which you are established in Canada, the extent to which the circumstances tend to show you are, or are not, SETTLED PERMANENTLY in Canada. Again, this is just one aspect of things among many. But many PRs confuse what the law (such as the PR RO) ALLOWS versus what the law intends (for PR status, it intends for PRs to settle to live in Canada PERMANENTLY), and how this can influence how things go.

In any event . . . the SAFE approach is noted with emphasis. There are alternative paths with some RISKS. Figuring out how to navigate your way forward from here is a very individual case specific endeavor, for you to figure out, and you probably could use a lawyer's help . . . unless you are prepared to simply stay long enough to get into compliance, WAITING to get into compliance BEFORE applying for a new PR card, and BEFORE making a sponsorship application for PR for a spouse.
 

canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
52,959
12,759
Hi guys,

I think I have a bit of a unique situation and was wondering if anyone had any insight.

I am an Australian citizen, who lived in Canada for approximately 10 years and became a permanent resident towards the end of that. I met a German girl while I was here and we moved to Germany together for 3 years.

I have now moved back to Canada on a PR travel document due to a recently expired PR card, to renew my card and work.

I met the obligation for days on the PRTD (730) but now that I am filling out the paperwork for my PR renewal I am a few days shy due to overseas vacations, which I didn't need to list on my PRTD. I'm guessing this is a problem for renewal? I would have returned several months earlier but was unable due to Covid.

I also have another, more severe problem. I want to reactivate my MSP coverage but both Service Canada and MSP have said that I need a valid PR card. If it takes 2 years til I am eligible for a PR card again then I am without MSP for 2 years. How is this possible as it is against the law? Is there a way to solve this?

Thank you everyone for your help.

Regards,

Alex
Many people have arrived from Europe since March so not sure you can really say covid didn't allow you to travel back to Canada. As someone has also pointed out I hope you aren't planning on sponsoring anyone because not meeting your RO creates an issue for that as well. Not sure if there is an obvious solution to your MSP issue other than buying private insurance in case of emergency.
 
Dec 11, 2009
6
0
I agree that the SAFEST approach is that offered by @scylla
"Don't submit the application to renew your PR card until you have at least 730 days in the last five years."​

The rest of that is not so simple or definitive. In particular, it is NOT necessarily the case that "If you are a few days short, that will be a problem."

It can be a problem. That is, there is a RISK that IRCC will conduct a formal Residency Obligation examination and calculation when processing the PR card application, and if AS of THAT DATE, the date of that formal RO calculation, you are still short of meeting the PR RO, issue you a Departure Order terminating your PR status in Canada. (There is a right of appeal, as discussed at length in other topics here.)

But the details can matter, and certain details are likely to matter a lot. The range in RISK can vary from just some RISK to a fairly HIGH RISK.

Quantifying the risks is very tricky, and in a forum setting like this, too speculative to be done in anyway that is likely to help much.

We can point to some key factors which will tend to push the RISKS in one direction or the other.

The biggest factor, for example, depends a lot on just precisely how many days short. In this regard, no advanced degrees in rocket science necessary to see the trajectory of risk compared to bigger shortfalls. The more the PR is short, the bigger the risks.

And for how much longer the PR will continue to be short can be a factor. Consider the PR whose days IN Canada are in the last three years or so, for example, and for whom each new day IN Canada adds another day to the count of days IN Canada (compared, for example, to the PR who was in Canada five years ago, so for each new day in Canada is also losing a day, as it falls outside the five years that count, and thus for whom for some time will have the same calculation of total days . . . until the PR reaches the date that days from five years past are no longer falling out of the calculation). If this PR is more than a "few" days short, but even two months short, it is very likely that applying today is NOT going to be a problem. By the time IRCC opens the application, assuming the PR STAYS in Canada, the PR will be in compliance or so close that the PR will be in compliance before any scheduled RO examination. And if the PR is in compliance by the date of the formal calculation, that means the previous breach of RO is cured, and there is no basis to find the PR inadmissible.

That is a fairly complex example, and in real life there are likely to be some wrinkles, some twists and turns, making it tricky to evaluate the odds. Which leads back to the important key thing that @scylla stated, which again (since it is important enough to warrant emphasis), the SAFE approach is to WAIT until the RO is met before making a PR card application (and BEFORE making a sponsorship application for PR for a spouse).

And even in that example, it warrants remembering that the date of an application does not necessarily correlate to how soon a new card is actually delivered. Not only will waiting longer to apply reduce, and eventually eliminate the RISKS, doing that will also reduce the RISK of non-routine processing, so that the new PR card is issued and delivered faster . . . waiting to apply can lead to getting the PR card sooner.

BUT . . . there are many other scenarios, each with its own twists and turns. For example, depending on how long the PR card has been expired, in the province of Ontario, for example, an expired PR card is accepted as proof of status for establishing OHIP eligibility.

And otherwise, depending on just how "few" days short the PR is, compared to many other factors, including just how big a difference it makes for the individual, whether they have a valid PR card or not (such as already noted, health coverage can be obtained in Ontario; if in a province where health coverage cannot be obtained, then a factor is whether the individual can get by without health insurance), the PR can make a PR card application relying on relief from the RO based on H&C considerations. That is, the PR can choose to take some RISK because the PR really needs a new PR card.

But again, calculating those RISKS is very tricky. Considering whether to go that route virtually demands the help of a qualified, experienced, reputable immigration LAWYER (not a consultant), someone who can go over every detail in confidence and who has the experience to judge these things.

NOTE: I have barely scratched the surface of relevant factors. I note, for example, that you say "I have now moved back to Canada . . . to renew my card and work." Among the many factors which can have influence is the nature and extent to which you are established in Canada, the extent to which the circumstances tend to show you are, or are not, SETTLED PERMANENTLY in Canada. Again, this is just one aspect of things among many. But many PRs confuse what the law (such as the PR RO) ALLOWS versus what the law intends (for PR status, it intends for PRs to settle to live in Canada PERMANENTLY), and how this can influence how things go.

In any event . . . the SAFE approach is noted with emphasis. There are alternative paths with some RISKS. Figuring out how to navigate your way forward from here is a very individual case specific endeavor, for you to figure out, and you probably could use a lawyer's help . . . unless you are prepared to simply stay long enough to get into compliance, WAITING to get into compliance BEFORE applying for a new PR card, and BEFORE making a sponsorship application for PR for a spouse.
Thank you for your detailed answer.

I have another question: I am in BC and am wondering if an expired PR card is in this province a valid document for my MSP application?

Regards,

Alexander
 

steaky

VIP Member
Nov 11, 2008
14,298
1,628
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
Thank you for your detailed answer.

I have another question: I am in BC and am wondering if an expired PR card is in this province a valid document for my MSP application?

Regards,

Alexander
You need a valid PR card for MSP application.
 
  • Like
Reactions: YVR123
Dec 11, 2009
6
0
Okay, thanks for your quick response, Steaky.

I might have a chat with an immigration lawyer and see if it is worthwhile applying on H&C considerations for a new PR card, considering I am a few days short on my RO and I need it to have MSP.

I don't really understand how this can be possible, because I am in Canada legally, but it is also a legal requirement to apply for MSP as soon as you enter the country. I pretty much won't be able to get it for a year...
 

canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
52,959
12,759
Okay, thanks for your quick response, Steaky.

I might have a chat with an immigration lawyer and see if it is worthwhile applying on H&C considerations for a new PR card, considering I am a few days short on my RO and I need it to have MSP.

I don't really understand how this can be possible, because I am in Canada legally, but it is also a legal requirement to apply for MSP as soon as you enter the country. I pretty much won't be able to get it for a year...
It is a legal requirement that you enrol but whether you get coverage is based on whether you can meet the requirements. Many people that have resorted to private insurance if they have not met their RO and don’t have a valid PR card.
 

Copingwithlife

VIP Member
Jul 29, 2018
3,864
1,867
Earth
Okay, thanks for your quick response, Steaky.

I might have a chat with an immigration lawyer and see if it is worthwhile applying on H&C considerations for a new PR card, considering I am a few days short on my RO and I need it to have MSP.

I don't really understand how this can be possible, because I am in Canada legally, but it is also a legal requirement to apply for MSP as soon as you enter the country. I pretty much won't be able to get it for a year...
Well immigration is the Federal Governments responsibility and Health Care is the Provinces. They each get to set their own requirements
 

armoured

VIP Member
Feb 1, 2015
15,227
7,755
Okay, thanks for your quick response, Steaky.

I might have a chat with an immigration lawyer and see if it is worthwhile applying on H&C considerations for a new PR card, considering I am a few days short on my RO and I need it to have MSP.

I don't really understand how this can be possible, because I am in Canada legally, but it is also a legal requirement to apply for MSP as soon as you enter the country. I pretty much won't be able to get it for a year...
I do not know the MSP specifics but it is worth looking into first whether they will accept your 'recently expired' card. Another poster said it must be a valid card but some provinces do accept expired cards, and it is possible there are temporary covid measures that would deal with this.

At any rate for the time being they are related but distinct issues, and you can pursue each in parallel.
 

Islander216

Champion Member
Nov 27, 2019
2,109
1,338
Depends on the province, some of them are waiving the mandatory residence period before being eligible to apply for a health card. I really don't think a province should be able to require that you have a PR card to apply for MSP, your PR card is mainly for travelling abroad. Your COPR should be valid to show your immigration status as a permanent resident, in order to apply for health insurance.

All the information from your PR card is lifted straight from your COPR in any case.