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Applying for Renewal of PR in a little advance

bealegend

Member
Sep 1, 2011
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0
Hello everyone

I wanted to ask if I could apply for the PR card Renewal in advance?

I will be meeting the residency obligations (730 days) in the month of January 2018. If I apply now, the future 2 months(i.e December 2017 and January 2018) will be counted towards my residency days OR they WILL NOT be? The processing of the PR renewal takes around 2 months and my existing PR is expiring in the month of April 2018, so I would like to apply for the PR Renewal as soon as possible, without wasting any time.

Any comment would be appreciated!

Many thanks!
 

canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
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Your question has already been answered. Also I would expect your will end up being required to do a secondary review so your PR card renewal will take much longer than 2 months.
 

bealegend

Member
Sep 1, 2011
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Thank you for your reply
Could you please let me know the thread name where my question has been answered?

What is a secondary review and why do you think it would be required in my case?

Thank you!
 

scylla

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Secondary review is when CIC takes longer to process your PR card renewal and completes a closer examination to ensure you meet the residency requirement. PR card renewals tend to go to secondary review when people apply with only 730 days or just a bit over 730 days residency.
 
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mats

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Secondary review is when CIC takes longer to process your PR card renewal and completes a closer examination to ensure you meet the residency requirement. PR card renewals tend to go to secondary review when people apply with only 730 days or just a bit over 730 days residency.
Its not just because you are under 800. If there is much travel and esp to middle east. I had 1300 days and still mine is in secondary.
 
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bealegend

Member
Sep 1, 2011
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Thank you everyone for the details. However, I still did not get the thread where I could get the answer to my question related to the days between the PR Renewal application date( if I apply now) and the future date(Jan 2018) on which I meet the residency obligations. Will they be counted towards the residency?

Thanks!
 

scylla

VIP Member
Jun 8, 2010
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Toronto
Category........
Visa Office......
Buffalo
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
28-05-2010
AOR Received.
19-08-2010
File Transfer...
28-06-2010
Passport Req..
01-10-2010
VISA ISSUED...
05-10-2010
LANDED..........
05-10-2010
Thank you everyone for the details. However, I still did not get the thread where I could get the answer to my question related to the days between the PR Renewal application date( if I apply now) and the future date(Jan 2018) on which I meet the residency obligations. Will they be counted towards the residency?

Thanks!
No - of course dates in the future will not be counted towards the residency obligation. This is common sense. Only days before you apply will be counted. If you apply now when you don't have sufficient days, renewal will be refused. You can only apply AFTER you have accumulated at least 730 days.
 
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dpenabill

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Apr 2, 2010
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I wanted to ask if I could apply for the PR card Renewal in advance?

I will be meeting the residency obligations (730 days) in the month of January 2018. If I apply now, the future 2 months(i.e December 2017 and January 2018) will be counted towards my residency days OR they WILL NOT be? The processing of the PR renewal takes around 2 months and my existing PR is expiring in the month of April 2018, so I would like to apply for the PR Renewal as soon as possible, without wasting any time.

- - - - - - - - - - -

I still did not get the thread where I could get the answer to my question related to the days between the PR Renewal application date( if I apply now) and the future date(Jan 2018) on which I meet the residency obligations. Will they be counted towards the residency?

I am a Permanent Resident since Feb 2013( although I received the PR card on April 2013). The PR Card is due to expire on April 2018(having completed 5 years).

After receiving Permanent Residency in Feb 2013, I stayed in Canada for around 1 year and 2 months and then left for home country due to some personal reasons. I stayed there for around 2 years and 11.5 months and returned back this year in the month of march(i.e March 2017)
It appears you are in compliance with the PR Residency Obligation, as of now. But it also appears, very much so, that you are cutting-it-close and as such have some fairly serious risks going forward. I elaborate below.



No - of course dates in the future will not be counted towards the residency obligation. This is common sense. Only days before you apply will be counted. If you apply now when you don't have sufficient days, renewal will be refused. You can only apply AFTER you have accumulated at least 730 days.
This is correct for any PR who has been a PR for five years.

However, in a separate topic the OP has reported being within the first five years of landing and becoming a PR. In particular, the OP reports landing in February 2013.

Thus, in any Residency Determination (including one attendant an application for a new/renewed PR card) as of a date prior to February 2018, IRCC will in fact give credit for future days up to the fifth year anniversary of the date of landing.

Thus, for example, if the OP landed February 1, 2013, and the OP applies for a new PR card on November 22, 2017, compliance with the PR Residency Obligation will be based on days in Canada between February 1, 2013 and November 21, 2017, PLUS 69 days credit for the days between November 22, 2017 and February 1, 2018.


There are, however, some important caveats:

As scylla, canuck78, and mats have all observed, the scenario described by the OP appears to be one in which it is very likely IRCC will pursue elevated scrutiny, including the prospect of a referral to Secondary Review, which could result in the PRC application taking many months, perhaps more than a year.

As mats has further observed, there are factors suggesting elevated scrutiny in addition to or even apart from cutting-it-close relative to PR RO compliance.

Moreover, while the primary Residency Determination made in the course of processing the PRC application will be based on the date the application is made, thus giving the OP credit for days in Canada since landing plus credit for future days up to the 5th year anniversary of landing, the OP is nonetheless subject to a separate Residency Determination any day going forward. Any such Residency Determination would be based on the respective examination date. Thus, even if as of the date the application is made the OP is in compliance, based on credit for future days up to the date of the 5th year anniversary, any days of absence in the meantime will, of course, NOT COUNT in a subsequent Residency Determination.

The OP also reports that some of the days counted as in Canada go back to days (months) following the date of landing. Those days will fall out of the calculation when they pass the five year mark. Thus, given how much the OP is clearly cutting-it-close, the OP will need to be especially careful about absences in the coming year . . . remembering that even if the OP is promptly issued a new PR card, for example, if the OP leaves Canada in the coming year, the OP could face a Residency Examination upon arrival at a PoE when returning to Canada, and compliance will be based on actual days in Canada during the five years previous to that specific day. Having a new PR card valid for nearly five years does NOT matter.

Given the OP's other posts, it appears that the OP spent most (perhaps nearly all) of the period between February 2013 and March 2014 in Canada. Thus, the OP will be losing credit (toward PR RO compliance) for those days during the coming year. Meaning it appears the OP will have a minimal margin for any further absences from Canada until March or April 2019.

And, ultimately, this also means it appears the OP has been in Canada for less than one year out of the last three years . . . suggesting there will likely be some question about the extent to which the OP is permanently settled in Canada. This alone tends to be a big factor in how skeptical IRCC will be in conducting a Residency Determination. This, in turn, means the OP could be challenged to more thoroughly prove actual presence during the days the OP claims to have been in Canada.

The latter is important. If challenged, and this scenario definitely suggests there is a risk of being challenged, the burden of actually proving presence in Canada can be more difficult to meet than many anticipate. The PR cannot just rely on getting credit for days in-between a date of entry into Canada and next date of exit. The PR may have to prove actual activity or presence for many of those days in-between date of entry and next exit.



Rather than carry on multiple conversations, in multiple threads, I will respond to the following here:

3) I was self Incorporated in 2013(in my first visit to Canada). When I went to my home country in March 2014, I worked remotely for some months from there and during this time, I continued to receive the paycheck in Canada. So, two questions related to this -

3. a) Could individual corporation be considered as the "Canada business" in regards to claiming the residency days of those few months (when I was working remotely) for the PR Renewal process?

3. b) Which documents do I need to submit to prove my remote work/Canada Income? I know the bank statements will be required which is NOT a problem. But will the corporation documents be also required? If yes, which all documents should be submitted?
Very little, if any chance, you would qualify for the credit given employees TEMPORARILY assigned abroad. So proof of remote work and Canadian income will not be relevant. This credit is typically very narrowly interpreted.


Overall, for the OP: forecasting individual cases is mostly about guessing. But no guessing necessary to recognize there is a big RISK you will face elevated and potentially severe, perhaps even skeptical scrutiny. To significantly reduce your risks of more intensive, potentially severely negative scrutiny, you will probably need to remain IN CANADA, settled and working in Canada, for two plus some years (if you have been in Canada nearly all of the last ten months or so, those would count toward those two years). This observation is not about the rules, as such, but about the PRACTICAL way in which the rules might be applied in a scenario like the one you describe.


Edit to add:

One of the risks is that the OP could be called in for an interview any time after applying for the new PR card.

In particular, if the OP is otherwise called in for an interview attendant processing the application for a PRC, the focus of that interview is likely to be the PR's compliance with the PR RO as of that day. Absences in the meantime would spell serious problems for someone who is cutting-it-so-close. Such an interview could happen within a month or two after applying, or many months after applying.

Indeed, even if IRCC issues a new PR card, it is likely the OP will be required to personally appear to pick-up the PRC subject to a counter-interview. IRCC is quite likely to assess the OP's compliance with the PR RO as of that day, the day of the counter-interview. So even though IRCC has issued a new PRC, any absences in the meantime could spell serious problems for someone who is cutting-it-so-close.
 
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bealegend

Member
Sep 1, 2011
11
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Hi depanbill


Thank you so much for such a detailed response. I cannot be more thankful to you, for sparing your time in the analysis of my case, writing such an elaborated and personalized reply.


I read through your post patiently point by point and subsequently, have some relevant questions. I would appreciate if you could provide your answers/suggestions.


I ) Mathematics for PRO:


As I mentioned in one of the previous posts,I first landed Canada in Feb 2013 and then exited Canada in March 2014.I then re-entered canada this year. Below are the specific dates


Date of Entry to Canada: 02 Feb 2013

Date of Exit from Canada : 28 March 2014

Date of Re-entry : 18 March 2017

No travel to anywhere in the world between 28 March 2014 to 18 March 2017



Thank you for understanding my query related to applying for the PRC in advance and noting that the IRCC does have a provision for those with less than 5 years of permanent residency, to apply in advance.Having said that, the IRCC should give me the credit for the future days, should I apply before 02 Feb 2018.


I have two options - Either I apply before the completion of 5 years of Permanent Residency(i.e before 02 Feb 2018) OR after the completion of 5 years of Permanent Residency(i.e On or after 02 Feb 2018). I would like to write a short note about both the situations:


a) Applying BEFORE 02 Feb 2018: I do meet the PRO because of the credit that I would get for the future days from the date the application is received by IRCC. As per my calculation, the break up is as follows:


  • 1st phase of Physical Presence in Canada : 02 Feb 2013(Date of Landing) to 28 March 2014(Date of Exit) --> 419 Days(Excluding 28 March 2014)
  • 2nd Phase of Physical Presence in Canada : 18 March 2017 to Present(Assuming this as 01 Dec 2017) --> 259 Days(Including 01 Dec 2017)
  • Credit for the Future days(02 Dec 2017 to 01 Feb 2018) : 61 Days --> 61 Days

Total : 419 + 259 + 61 = 739 Days


b) Applying ON or AFTER 02 Feb 2018: The more delay I make in the PRC application after 02 Feb 2018, the more I will be hit with dual loss. Not only will I lose the advantage of "Not completing 5 years of Permanent Residency in Canada"( which I still have before 02 Feb 2018), leading to the loss of Credit days, but I will also start losing days from 2013, for every day which passes after 02 Feb 2018(While Calculating 5 years backwards).But I think they should get compensated for some weeks after 02 Feb 2018 as well (I don't plan to leave Canada for the next 2-3 years), but only until 28 March 2018(that is exactly the date when I left Canada in 2014). So even if I apply after 02 Feb 2018 and assuming the case that the application is received at the IRCC office on 28 March 2018, if I trace 5 years back from that date, I should still meet the PRO, with the below calculation:


  • First Phase of Physical Presence in Canada --> 28 March 2013 to 28 March 2014 --> 366 Days(Including 28 March 2014)
  • Second Phase of Physical Presence in Canada --> 18 March 2017 to 28 March 2018 --> 376 Days(including 28 March 2018)
Total : 366 + 376 = 742 Days


Now a million dollar question is WHETHER I SHOULD APPLY BEFORE 02 FEB 2018 OR AFTER 02 FEB 2018? What you would have done if you were in my situation?


II) Experience working outside of Canada :


You suggested in your post that its unlikely for IRCC to consider my remote work experience(while I was getting paid here in Canada- I have the bank statements). Do you think I should even declare that work experience abroad to IRCC? If its irrelevant and doesn't carry much weightage( on the contrary, from what I feel, this could further increase scrutiny on my application), I could possibly think of omitting this from my work experience abroad.But the PRC application has a Work experience table which asks to explicitly mention where and how long the applicant has worked for the last 5 years(regardless of whether it was Canada or any other country). Not mentioning my few months of remote work experience abroad(and instead mentioning that I was unemployed) could be observed as a false disclosure of the information. I am still wondering how should I handle this situation?


<If I declare remote work experience>, they may become more skeptical about my application thinking that I am trying to meet the PRO with some remote work experience and possibly scrutinize my PRC application more



OR


<If I don't declare remote work experience>, not only will that be a false disclosure of the information, I will lose the option of leveraging on this experience in future, should the PRC because of any reason get refused and I try to challenge the decision with the support of my remote work.



III) Date to be written in the PRC Renewal Application: There is a table where all the dates have to be mentioned about your physical presence in the last 5 years.Its clearly mentioned in the manual of IRCC that the 5 years are calculated from the date the application is received at the IRCC office, so what do I mention in the latest date field?


Example: 18 March 2017 - Present OR 18 March 2017 - 01 Dec 2017? Even if sign the application date on 01 Dec 2017,and IRCC receives it for example on 05 Dec 2017, I would assume they would calculate backwards from 05 Dec 2017 and NOT 01 Dec 2017, correct?



IV) Assuming I get PR Card: Assuming that everything goes smoothly and I get a PR Card in June 2018(Example cited), if I travel even for a few days outside Canada, could I be denied the entry(because I know I then won't meet the PRO until 18 March 2019) just because my PRO wasn't met at the time when I re-entered? Does anyone to retain the Permanent Resident status have to meet the PRO at any given point of time while re-entering Canada? Do the officers at the airport always screen any inbound Permanent Resident against the PRO? I wasn't screened that way when I entered Canada this year. What is the point of having an expiry date on the PR Card then?


Looking forward to hearing from you & thanks again for all of your help and suggestions!
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,252
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I have two options - Either I apply before the completion of 5 years of Permanent Residency(i.e before 02 Feb 2018) OR after the completion of 5 years of Permanent Residency(i.e On or after 02 Feb 2018). I would like to write a short note about both the situations:

Now a million dollar question is WHETHER I SHOULD APPLY BEFORE 02 FEB 2018 OR AFTER 02 FEB 2018? What you would have done if you were in my situation?
I am NOT an expert. I am not qualified to give personal advice. For many reasons.

If you want or feel the need for personal advice, or a specific opinion about your case, you should obtain a consultation with a competent, licensed, reputable LAWYER (not a consultant).

Beyond that, as I and others have noted (with some emphasis), you are cutting-it-close, your situation is at risk for non-routine scrutiny and processing. That is now history. That will remain the case, it appears, for well over another year.

Once you have been well-established and living and working in Canada consistently, continually, for two plus years or so, that will obviate most of the risks (for awhile, for a long while if you continue to stay and work in Canada beyond that).

Otherwise, in the meantime, there is a substantial risk that when you apply for a new PR card that application will be referred for a Secondary Review or trigger an interview for a Residency Determination. If referred for SR, it could take many months, even a year, for you to be issued AND delivered a new PR card. (Note: just because Sydney issues a new PRC does not always mean it is delivered to the PR; as previously observed, delivery of new PRC can be subject to a counter-interview during which IRCC can decide to not deliver the PRC.)

It is difficult if not impossible to forecast whether applying before or after the fifth year anniversary will make much difference in how it goes, in what the actual risks of SR will be. After you meet the PR Residency Obligation based on actual past presence might be a positive factor, but where you are cutting-it-so-close and where you will effectively not be adding any additional credits going forward, after the fifth year anniversary of landing (as days present five years ago fall out of the calculation), you will continue to be cutting-it-close until at least April or May 2019.

A PR does not need to have a current PR card while living in Canada. If you have obtained health care coverage and a drivers' license, you should be OK without a PR card for some time. Meaning you should be able to apply for a new PRC when it is convenient (say when you meet the PR RO based on actual days spent in Canada) and then wait out the process, however long it takes, three months or a year. Of course travel abroad would be difficult. Outright risky without a valid PRC. But again there is probably no way to avoid the risk of SR and a lengthy PRC application process.


Do you think I should even declare that work experience abroad to IRCC? If its irrelevant and doesn't carry much weightage( on the contrary, from what I feel, this could further increase scrutiny on my application) . . .
Let's be clear: you need to provide address, work, and travel history when you apply for a PRC. That needs to be COMPLETE and ACCURATE. You need to disclose (declare) all employment history for the previous five years. ALL means ALL.

Sure, while there is a lot more to figure out relative to the full implications of your past situation, more than what might be apparent in the circumstances you describe (which would be something to be discussed with a lawyer), on the surface it appears you may have set up a business in a way to get the employed-abroad-by-a-Canadian-business credit without really qualifying for that credit. And yeah, there is some risk that could invite increased scrutiny. But your history is your history. That's done. Last thing you want to do is be evasive, let alone deceptive, by omission or otherwise. Focus on ACCURATELY/HONESTLY providing the information requested. Remember, your situation is already at risk for elevated scrutiny.

If you are worried about IRCC doubting the amount of time you have been in Canada, the longer you are here, and the more established you are here, the better. This factor might weigh in favour of waiting longer to apply for the PRC. That would be a personal judgment call. It would depend on whether you anticipate having to travel abroad in the next two or three years. This could be something to discuss in detail with a lawyer.

If your question is about whether to complete item 22.D. to seek credit for the time you were abroad and working for your Canadian business, from the sketchy details you have shared about that, that does indeed appear to have a near zero if not zero chance. If you were the business' only employee, for sure, NO, NO chance. There are other indications in what you describe that tend to shout NO chance. But if you want a definitive opinion about this, that is something to review with a lawyer.
 
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bealegend

Member
Sep 1, 2011
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Hi dpenabill
Thank you for such a detailed analysis and explanation. I will take all aspects into consideration and will most likely apply only after I have met the residency requirements.

I cannot be more thankful to you to posting such a detailed reply. The time you spent in writing it is highly appreciated.

Thank you!