Apply for renewal before 730 days are covered?

[San050403]

I landed on Oct 22, 2016. I was outside of the country for few years that I am completing 730 days only on Oct 05, 2021. I have to renew my PR card now.



Should I wait until Oct 06, 2021 where I complete 731 days, or can I apply before that to renew my card?

Since I am cutting in closely on 730 days, should I add a letter that explains why I was outside for so long? Will any proof like my newly bought Canadian house will help my case to prove my intention to stay here going forward?
Any suggestions and insights please.

Thanks!

 

[armoured]

I landed on Oct 22, 2016. I was outside of the country for few years that I am completing 730 days only on Oct 05, 2021. I have to renew my PR card now.

Should I wait until Oct 06, 2021 where I complete 731 days, or can I apply before that to renew my card?

Why do you need to renew your PR card right now?

If it's just so you don't have an expired card - wait until you have the 730 days, ideally with a buffer just in case (eg 30-60 days).

If you're in Canada, you can live for years without a valid PR card. It's mainly for purposes of travel back to Canada you'd need the card. (A few other cases perhaps too)

While you're in Canada and your card is expired, you can live and work and go about your business and not worry at all; it's the card that's expired, not your PR status.

 

[armoured]

Note; I have not done the math but I believe you are in compliance now and could apply (although frankly waiting an extra month might still be a good idea). Sorry, i did not focus on your specific dates but on the question of applying for card before getting in compliance.

If you are in Canada now you still get 'credit' for days remaining to end of your first five year period, or until October 22, 2021.

Please check your dates carefully. You can at least start preparing your renewal app.

You may find it easier to think: in any five year period, including the first, you are in compliance if you have not been out of Canada for more than 1095 days (five years minus 730 days in Canada is 1095).

 

[scylla]

I landed on Oct 22, 2016. I was outside of the country for few years that I am completing 730 days only on Oct 05, 2021. I have to renew my PR card now.



Should I wait until Oct 06, 2021 where I complete 731 days, or can I apply before that to renew my card?

Since I am cutting in closely on 730 days, should I add a letter that explains why I was outside for so long? Will any proof like my newly bought Canadian house will help my case to prove my intention to stay here going forward?
Any suggestions and insights please.

Thanks!

Do not apply early. That will result in refusal and will trigger the loss of your PR status.

I would recommend waiting a few weeks after October 6th to submit your application. No, you do not need to include a letter explaining why you were outside of Canada for so long. You just need to make sure you fully meet the residency requirement before IRCC receives the PR card renewal application.

 

[San050403]

Thank you @scylla and @armoured. I will better wait until I am in compliance and then apply to renew my PR. Anyways, I am just a week away for 730, plus I will wait 2-3 more weeks after that to be well covered.

 

[armoured]

Thank you @scylla and @armoured. I will better wait until I am in compliance and then apply to renew my PR. Anyways, I am just a week away for 730, plus I will wait 2-3 more weeks after that to be well covered.

I agree that I don't think it's beneficial to apply now even if you technically might meet the calcs; it might not save you any time anyway.

 

[dpenabill]

I landed on Oct 22, 2016. I was outside of the country for few years that I am completing 730 days only on Oct 05, 2021. I have to renew my PR card now.

Should I wait until Oct 06, 2021 where I complete 731 days, or can I apply before that to renew my card?

Since I am cutting in closely on 730 days, should I add a letter that explains why I was outside for so long? Will any proof like my newly bought Canadian house will help my case to prove my intention to stay here going forward?

The gist of things have been covered in the responses above.

Some clarifications are in order, however, as much for any others reading these threads as for you, as much about explaining the underlying elements affecting how PR card applications are processed.

Overall there appears to be no risk a PR card application will be denied based on non-compliance with the RO (unless you leave Canada in the meantime), but there is a significant risk your PR card application will be subject to non-routine processing, and thus subject to a longer processing timeline. Probably not much you can do, now, to influence how it goes. Unlike others, I doubt waiting weeks or even a few months will make much difference.

Explanation; the Long Read:

So, for example, to my view it does not matter much if you apply for the PR card tomorrow or wait until December. How apparently well settled, permanently settled in Canada, you currently appear to be, that is likely to have far, far more influence in whether your PR card application is subject to non-routine processing, and thus takes longer (potentially up to a year longer) than routinely processed applications.

I disagree some with the observation that if you apply for a new PR card prior to being physically present in Canada at least 730 days since landing that will or even could lead to the loss of your PR status . . . unless:

-- you have been outside Canada more than 1095 days since the date of landing, or​

-- you leave Canada in the meantime, or​

-- you apply for a new PR card after the fifth year anniversary of the date you landed, and when you apply you have not been in Canada at least 730 days within the previous five years (as of that date, the date of the application)​

And, to be clear, up to the fifth year anniversary of the date you landed (which appears to be October 22, 2021), you cannot add any more days credit. As long as you STAY in Canada, the number of days credit you have toward compliance with the RO will remain exactly the same as it is today . . . until October 22, 2021 (after that, the credit depends on actual days in Canada within the five years immediately preceding the day RO compliance is being calculated).

So, if you do not have 731 days credit as of today, you will not have 731 days credit unless you stay and continue staying past October 22, 2021.

However, I interpret your numbers to mean, in contrast, that you have been physically present IN Canada long enough that you will have a total of 731 days credit for days actually IN Canada, if you stay in the meantime, as of October 5th or 6th.

But, actually, as of today your credit toward RO compliance is the total of the number of days you have been IN Canada since landing PLUS approximately 23 days (days left on the calendar until the anniversary of your landing in October). And as long as you stay in Canada, that number (the total) remains the same until the anniversary of your landing in October.

That is, if you apply tomorrow, you have the same credit toward RO compliance as you will have if you apply, say, October 19 (so long as you do not leave Canada in the meantime).

Another way of looking at this is to recognize that the day the PR lands and becomes a PR, the PR has 1825 days credit toward compliance with the RO. Only days abroad after landing will change the amount of credit the PR has . . . up to the fifth year anniversary of landing.


Risks Related to Cutting-it-Close; Effect of Margin Over Minimum:

The conventional wisdom in this forum seems to favour waiting to make a PR card application long enough to build something of a margin over the minimum Residency Obligation (730 days presence within 5 years). To my view a margin does not help much.

My view is that even a few months more, let alone mere weeks, is relatively insignificant (very different compared to applying for citizenship). Other factors will have far more influence in whether the PR card application is subject to non-routine processing. That is, waiting until the PR has credit for, say, nearly 800 days versus applying with 731 days, is likely to have no more than a marginal impact on how it goes; for a PR currently well-settled IN Canada, the risk for non-routine processing remains relatively comparable whether the PR is applying with 731 days credit toward the RO or 786 days credit.

And, to be clear, unless it is fairly clear the PR is currently settled and living in Canada, appearing to be PERMANENTLY settled in Canada, the risk of non-routine processing is high. A hundred day margin not likely to reduce that risk much. PRs who appear to be living abroad, for example, are at elevated risk for non-routine PR card application processing EVEN if they have been IN Canada more than a 1000 days within the preceding five years.

Moreover, while the extent to which the PR is clearly NOW well settled, PERMANENTLY settled in Canada, may otherwise diminish the risk of non-routine processing for a PR card application, nonetheless the PR cutting-it-close is very much at risk of non-routine processing, such that some delay in getting a new PR card can be anticipated. And the PR is more or less cutting-it-close if the PR has been abroad more than in Canada . . . that is, less than 900 days credit toward the RO is cutting-it-close and less than 800 days credit is, in effect, cutting-it-real-close.

I am not sure anyone else agrees with me about this.

So I have offered an explanation. And will further note that unless and until a PR has been IN Canada more than 900 days within the preceding five years, the PR has been living outside Canada more than IN Canada, and on its face that appears to be inconsistent with the purpose for the grant of PR (unless current circumstances indicate otherwise, like it currently being clear the PR is NOW well settled, PERMANENTLY settled in Canada) and potentially indicates that the PR's actions after landing may not be consistent with what the PR presented to IRCC/CIC in obtaining PR status, which necessarily includes representations sufficient for the visa officer to conclude the individual "is coming to Canada to establish permanent residence." Make no mistake about what "permanent residence" means as used here, which is in Section 70(1)(b) IRPR (for section 70(1), the regulation prescribing what must be established to be issued a PR visa, see https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-2002-227/page-16.html#docCont ). It is not about establishing status of a PR. It is about coming to LIVE PERMANENTLY in Canada, about establishing a RESIDENCE in Canada that is PERMANENT.

There appears to be a tendency to understate, underestimate, and generally not appreciate the importance of establishing actual residence in Canada, permanent residence.

That said, yes, 730 days presence within the relevant five years saves a PR's status. IRCC does not and cannot terminate a PR's status because the PR has not settled PERMANENTLY in Canada.

 

[San050403]

The gist of things have been covered in the responses above.

Some clarifications are in order, however, as much for any others reading these threads as for you, as much about explaining the underlying elements affecting how PR card applications are processed.

Overall there appears to be no risk a PR card application will be denied based on non-compliance with the RO (unless you leave Canada in the meantime), but there is a significant risk your PR card application will be subject to non-routine processing, and thus subject to a longer processing timeline. Probably not much you can do, now, to influence how it goes. Unlike others, I doubt waiting weeks or even a few months will make much difference.

Explanation; the Long Read:

So, for example, to my view it does not matter much if you apply for the PR card tomorrow or wait until December. How apparently well settled, permanently settled in Canada, you currently appear to be, that is likely to have far, far more influence in whether your PR card application is subject to non-routine processing, and thus takes longer (potentially up to a year longer) than routinely processed applications.

I disagree some with the observation that if you apply for a new PR card prior to being physically present in Canada at least 730 days since landing that will or even could lead to the loss of your PR status . . . unless:

-- you have been outside Canada more than 1095 days since the date of landing, or​

-- you leave Canada in the meantime, or​

-- you apply for a new PR card after the fifth year anniversary of the date you landed, and when you apply you have not been in Canada at least 730 days within the previous five years (as of that date, the date of the application)​

And, to be clear, up to the fifth year anniversary of the date you landed (which appears to be October 22, 2021), you cannot add any more days credit. As long as you STAY in Canada, the number of days credit you have toward compliance with the RO will remain exactly the same as it is today . . . until October 22, 2021 (after that, the credit depends on actual days in Canada within the five years immediately preceding the day RO compliance is being calculated).

So, if you do not have 731 days credit as of today, you will not have 731 days credit unless you stay and continue staying past October 22, 2021.

However, I interpret your numbers to mean, in contrast, that you have been physically present IN Canada long enough that you will have a total of 731 days credit for days actually IN Canada, if you stay in the meantime, as of October 5th or 6th.

But, actually, as of today your credit toward RO compliance is the total of the number of days you have been IN Canada since landing PLUS approximately 23 days (days left on the calendar until the anniversary of your landing in October). And as long as you stay in Canada, that number (the total) remains the same until the anniversary of your landing in October.

That is, if you apply tomorrow, you have the same credit toward RO compliance as you will have if you apply, say, October 19 (so long as you do not leave Canada in the meantime).

Another way of looking at this is to recognize that the day the PR lands and becomes a PR, the PR has 1825 days credit toward compliance with the RO. Only days abroad after landing will change the amount of credit the PR has . . . up to the fifth year anniversary of landing.


Risks Related to Cutting-it-Close; Effect of Margin Over Minimum:

The conventional wisdom in this forum seems to favour waiting to make a PR card application long enough to build something of a margin over the minimum Residency Obligation (730 days presence within 5 years). To my view a margin does not help much.

My view is that even a few months more, let alone mere weeks, is relatively insignificant (very different compared to applying for citizenship). Other factors will have far more influence in whether the PR card application is subject to non-routine processing. That is, waiting until the PR has credit for, say, nearly 800 days versus applying with 731 days, is likely to have no more than a marginal impact on how it goes; for a PR currently well-settled IN Canada, the risk for non-routine processing remains relatively comparable whether the PR is applying with 731 days credit toward the RO or 786 days credit.

And, to be clear, unless it is fairly clear the PR is currently settled and living in Canada, appearing to be PERMANENTLY settled in Canada, the risk of non-routine processing is high. A hundred day margin not likely to reduce that risk much. PRs who appear to be living abroad, for example, are at elevated risk for non-routine PR card application processing EVEN if they have been IN Canada more than a 1000 days within the preceding five years.

Moreover, while the extent to which the PR is clearly NOW well settled, PERMANENTLY settled in Canada, may otherwise diminish the risk of non-routine processing for a PR card application, nonetheless the PR cutting-it-close is very much at risk of non-routine processing, such that some delay in getting a new PR card can be anticipated. And the PR is more or less cutting-it-close if the PR has been abroad more than in Canada . . . that is, less than 900 days credit toward the RO is cutting-it-close and less than 800 days credit is, in effect, cutting-it-real-close.

I am not sure anyone else agrees with me about this.

So I have offered an explanation. And will further note that unless and until a PR has been IN Canada more than 900 days within the preceding five years, the PR has been living outside Canada more than IN Canada, and on its face that appears to be inconsistent with the purpose for the grant of PR (unless current circumstances indicate otherwise, like it currently being clear the PR is NOW well settled, PERMANENTLY settled in Canada) and potentially indicates that the PR's actions after landing may not be consistent with what the PR presented to IRCC/CIC in obtaining PR status, which necessarily includes representations sufficient for the visa officer to conclude the individual "is coming to Canada to establish permanent residence." Make no mistake about what "permanent residence" means as used here, which is in Section 70(1)(b) IRPR (for section 70(1), the regulation prescribing what must be established to be issued a PR visa, see https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-2002-227/page-16.html#docCont ). It is not about establishing status of a PR. It is about coming to LIVE PERMANENTLY in Canada, about establishing a RESIDENCE in Canada that is PERMANENT.

There appears to be a tendency to understate, underestimate, and generally not appreciate the importance of establishing actual residence in Canada, permanent residence.

That said, yes, 730 days presence within the relevant five years saves a PR's status. IRCC does not and cannot terminate a PR's status because the PR has not settled PERMANENTLY in Canada.

Wow! That’s a lot of good thought and info. Thank you very much for taking time to help others!

 

[armoured]

The conventional wisdom in this forum seems to favour waiting to make a PR card application long enough to build something of a margin over the minimum Residency Obligation (730 days presence within 5 years). To my view a margin does not help much.

My view is that even a few months more, let alone mere weeks, is relatively insignificant (very different compared to applying for citizenship).

I overall agree with you although I'm - cautiously - of the belief that the conventional wisdom isn't outright wrong.

Two main reasons, both from the position of those commenting without detailed knowledge of the applicant's actual situation:
-whether the applicant has properly tracked their days in/out of Canada, fully accounting for all days (and did't forget about that weekend in Vegas that turned into three weeks), and no errors of dates crossed, no missing info in CBSA records, etc;
-the likelihood that some of those who are cutting-it-close are not fully settled permanently in Canada (as you outline), because if they were, they probably wouldn't be cutting-it-close.

So, from the outside, not knowing the details of a person's case and being reasonably prudent about the reasons they're asking, AND knowing that being short by eg 30 days is quite bad and being 'over' by 30 days is positive ... then the conventional wisdom-response is just somewhat prudent.

In specific cases - like this one, assuming all info correct - the PR seems to be in compliance and won't gain any extra days for at least three weeks, and after that, the gains may be marginal. On the other hand, waiting an extra three to six weeks to apply probably doesn't make much difference, either - but it may be excessively cautious or prudent with little expected benefit.

This is all compounded, of course, by covid and inability to get much 'live' information on what leads to non-standard processing or if current delays are just covid delays.

A rather long way to say: the conventional wisdom might be not-entirely right, but possibly more right and less wrong for many of those asking. Because, mostly, those asking are those who are cutting-it-somewhat-close and possibly/frequently not as permanently settled as IRCC officers might like to see.

But it's entirely possible the conventional advice is not particularly beneficial and has the balance wrong.

 

[dpenabill]

Two main reasons, both from the position of those commenting without detailed knowledge of the applicant's actual situation:
-whether the applicant has properly tracked their days in/out of Canada, fully accounting for all days (and did't forget about that weekend in Vegas that turned into three weeks), and no errors of dates crossed, no missing info in CBSA records, etc;
-the likelihood that some of those who are cutting-it-close are not fully settled permanently in Canada (as you outline), because if they were, they probably wouldn't be cutting-it-close.

I appreciate the observations because they highlight a critical element that I did not give nearly enough attention. It was implicit but is so important it should have been emphasized as well as stated more explicitly: yes, of course actually being in compliance with the Residency Obligation is the key factor in how things go. Absolutely, no doubt that it is important to wait long enough to actually be in compliance with the RO.

Applying for a new PR card before getting back into compliance (the temptation is to say "full" compliance, for emphasis, but of course a PR is either in compliance or not in compliance) will not necessarily result in the loss of PR status (a complicated tangent, for another time), but of course that is the risk. The only safe, for-sure approach is to wait to apply for a new PR card when the PR is for-sure in compliance with the RO.

My excuse is that I was focused on the risk of non-routine processing, based on the OP's being (or at least appearing to be) in compliance, so there was no risk of a negative outcome (subject to the conditions I enumerated, the first being that the OP had not "been outside Canada more than 1095 days since the date of landing," meaning so long as the OP was actually in compliance with the RO).

The risk of non-routine processing is one thing. And that is potentially so inconvenient it can be of much importance to many, especially those who need to travel internationally (more than a few have described this as being trapped in Canada for a year or more).

But the risk of being subject to a formal RO compliance examination and issued a 44(1) Report and Departure Order (which is the procedure for a PR in breach of the RO rather than denying the PRC application; it is unusual for a PR card to be denied based on non-compliance with the RO, and I have only seen that in cases where the PR is abroad or IRCC/CIC perceived the PR was outside Canada), if as of the date of the examination the PR is still not in compliance with the RO, yeah, that is for-sure serious, resulting in the loss of PR status unless there is a successful appeal.

You are of course also very right to highlight the significance for the PR who is cutting-it-close AND who is not well-settled in Canada. And especially if this individual is cutting-it-so-close as to potentially be short of complying with the Residency Obligation. Big risks.

And likewise, right, circumstances vary widely in individual cases, and of course decision-making is ultimately personal, and decisions need to be based on the particular facts and circumstances in the individual case. In regards to which, of course the counting itself matters. So to the extent a PR might be off in the counting of days, yep, again, waiting long enough to cover the difference could indeed have an impact.

So, all good observations. Many circumstances in which *waiting* longer is a good idea.

Moreover, I did not intend to gloss over or minimize the general effect of spending more days in Canada, recognizing more days in Canada generally means the more secure, or at least stronger the case is, in event some of the PR's days in Canada are questioned. And, after all, the more days in Canada the more it is likely to appear the PR is settled in Canada, which tends to help.

ALL THAT SAID . . .

Beyond that the tangents are many, and some can be rather complicated. The details matter.

While there are too many contingencies and tangents to chase down in 10,000 characters, or even twice that, some more detailed attention to how-long-to-wait will be warranted relative to the facts and circumstance in particular situations, as they arise. This is something that tends to be more complicated than the conventional wisdom accommodates (other than noting to wait long enough to for sure be in compliance with the RO), recognizing that the PR RO is generally a moving target, quite unlike the presence requirement for citizenship, for example . . . BUT in contrast, in some circumstances, it involves a rather static calculation.

OVERALL, nonetheless . . . for the PR who is confident the number of days outside Canada, since the date of landing and during the first five years, do not total 1095 or more days, meaning there is no risk of losing PR status for a breach of the RO (subject to conditions, like remaining in Canada), waiting ten or thirty or even fifty or more days to make a PR card application is not likely to be what determines whether the application gets bogged down in non-routine processing. Which, yeah, it is important to note with emphasis, does not override the importance of being sure to be in compliance.

 

[armoured]

OVERALL, nonetheless . . . for the PR who is confident the number of days outside Canada, since the date of landing and during the first five years, do not total 1095 or more days, meaning there is no risk of losing PR status for a breach of the RO (subject to conditions, like remaining in Canada), waiting ten or thirty or even fifty or more days to make a PR card application is not likely to be what determines whether the application gets bogged down in non-routine processing. Which, yeah, it is important to note with emphasis, does not override the importance of being sure to be in compliance.

Yep, I agree with this. The distinction is between 'conventional wisdom' for those commenting or opining for applicants whose actual situation is unknown and for the PR who has a straightforward case and is confident of the number of days (and the first may be excessively prudent for this particular case).