My expriences so far ... first two days in Toronto!!!

[jazibkg]

;D


Tadaaaaa!!!!!! Look who is here

Although I do not know you, I am fascinated by your enthusiasm. Keep spreading the cheer in these depressing times!

 

[CharlotteJ]

Although I do not know you, I am fascinated by your enthusiasm. Keep spreading the cheer in these depressing times!

I try, each day. Sometimes I wonder if it does any more make any difference for anybody to think that the grass is greener on any other side or that life will at all be any better anywhere else being it Canada, UK, Australia or India, Pakistan or China.

It seems that all hope is gone, everywhere you see of the same, same shops, same brands, same faces, same religions, same cars, same drama, same nagging, same recession, same everything!

Overpopulation of the planet and geopolitical, religious conflicts on top of economical downfall and lingering recessions are taking their toll.

I think, as we also see clearly here across Europe, is that more & more Young Europeans are leaving the continent in search for a better life abroad, they too are going to as far as Australia, Canada, USA or China, India, Taiwan, Korea and Thailand. It's insane, there are now more Europeans leaving in pursuit of or for a better life and perspective to Asia than ever before.

While Chinese for instance buy property in USA and Canada or apply for citizenship there, more of us are finding jobs in China! Three of my British & American friends only are now working and living in China, one other from Canada is in Taiwan and loves it there, two more of Canadian friends in Hong Kong and my friend from France is in India!

I can't understand it anymore, how come we go there & love it, and you guys, most of you want to leave it?! Obviously there is more money to be made and better prospects in Asia & Africa these days than in the " good ole West"!

Life in Europe is very bad these days, unemployment is soaring higher than ever, regulations have crippled our daily businesses and refugees keep pouring in, Neo Nazism and racism is on the rise and I mean that, it s now everywhere, and me being in Human Resources I see that the chance for one born & bred here is far greater than if your name only sounds different and it's even worse, Europeans now are discriminating amongst each other too. Competition is killing, jobs scarce and cost of living ever increasing, taxes higher than ever and we see more each day how our system is increasingly becoming like that of USA & Canada.

So again, I d tell one here, if you really are sure you are going to make it well in Canada with a good reason, a real good solid plan, or job prospective and knowing you can easily survive the first 2 years without any stress of going hungry or not finding a job, don't risk it.

It's 2014 now, almost 2015 and no longer 2002 or 1985!

Times ARE changed.

Even worse, is that I now hear my Canadian friends losing their jobs or are struggling to keep their heads above water and not sink. It's sad, but if you are self employed, business person or so, don't risk your current situation and try to look for something in your own continent, neighboring countries and such.

I know many friends who are pilots and they travel constantly to UAE, KSA etc and the sheer number of European or Canadian employees there is mindbogglingly high as I encounter them via social media or in our discussions.

Sometimes even I am wondering that perhaps even I made a big mistake and wish I had chosen for a year in UAE and use my networking skills and education there to create jobs and a better world rather than wasting my time & energy in Canada.

My facebook is funny: I see smiles from my friends in Asia & Middle East, while I only hear and see drama from those in USA/Canada and sadly now too many unemployed stories in the Netherlands around me.

Ah well... So is life I guess.

West has become East, East has become the once being promise land of old West!

 

[Rossei]

I can't understand it anymore, how come we go there & love it, and you guys, most of you want to leave it?! Obviously there is more money to be made and better prospects in Asia & Africa these days than in the " good ole West"!

This always bothered me as well. In a world of 'Google'; one can easily know what s/he will expect after landing in a foreign country, especially Canada. Yet, people immigrate. And they are mostly young families with solid educational background who are doing good in their home country or expect to do better in near future.

The reason I found that has been most common is "A better/secured future for their children". Think about the horrifying school massacre in Pakistan; what impact it will leave on other parents. A better economy isn't always the de facto for immigration from South Asia. Another reason for immigration is having siblings/ other close family members who already immigrated years back and doing pretty well by now. Either they inspire the new family to come or the later is provoked on their own.

I've been to Europe and Australia years back. Honestly, most countries of Europe were always 'racist' to Asian people. Wait, I haven't said the whole thing; either South Asia or Middle-East would probably take the first place re: world racism.

Anyway, grasses are greener on the other side as you said. It's not going to change overnight. Welcome back and keep up the good work.

 

[david1697]

Unfortunately, and you may not realize it, the countries of developing world are more prejudiced to their own citizens than Canadian, European or American could imagine in their wildest dreams.

Ask any Indian who traveled to gain experience in UAE, they will tell you what it's like to work for UAE company as a South Asian.
You would think Indians treat Indians or Pakistanis treat Pakistanis much better in India and Pakistan?
Then why Indian goes to UAE? Why less than 1% of Indians do well, while 99% or so are living in extreme powerty and destitution?
Why Pakistani authorities can't prevent massacres of their own children?

The trend (to mistreat, discriminate and bring down) South Asians and other third world country individuals is not unique to developed world. It actually goes on at higher rate in the very countries they originate from. Hence such a seemingly irrational desire to immigrate that may not make sense to you.

As a European or someone of European descent you have a decidedly different experience when you travel to any third wotld country from an experience of the native third world country citizen.
The opportunities you get there are not the ones the local population has.

The only way a Native South Asian (or other third world country immigrant) can go back to where they come from and be successful is if they go back in the context of representing a large Western firm or Government organisation, provided the local authorities are allies of Western world. Then they will kiss the boots of the same person they wouldn't even glance at yesterday. But, barred that, there is no opportunity for large majority of third world citizens in their own countries. It may not be much better for them in Western world today, with economy being as bad as it is now, but it would be a wrong assumption to project your experiences to those who don't share your circumstances, and assume that Asia is truly land of opportunity for its' own.Itsn't, even today.

In the long term perspective, the only Asian country which may do well is China. All the others will suffer poor fate (especially Oil rich Gulf States and Russia, because not only oil will drop in price in cycles, but eventually and inevitably all of it will be used up OR alternative energy will be developed even before that).
And India, not oil rich but highly populous state rivaling China, will be bogged down by it's extreme disparity and lack of upward mobility; it will not become a great state or superpower when it keeps such a huge number of its' own population in such state of destitution.

Add to above political and social ramifications. In Canada or US if you are disadvantaged, you may not be able to change it but at least you can vent your frustration, you can speak up your mind and in some cases (if your employer clearly abused you, didn't pay you owed salary or kept you as a slave labor) you can go to authorities which may do something to protect your rights. We had a ranking Indian diplomat at UN deported back to India with a loud international scandal (after being strip searched in New York), because her maid made a complaint to Federal Authorities about being subjected to slave labor with her documents confiscated from her (a good example for you of how third world country elite treats their own).
What would that maid do if she was in India? Perhaps, she would be jailed by Indian authorities on some false allegetions because she dared to complain about such a "respectable" member of community as Nations' diplomat at UN.
Alas, this way of treatment of ordinary citizens is near universal and pervasively persistent for ALL developing countries of the world.
Including China, the only country in East I predict to become a superpower in observable perspective (unlike India, they allow for upward mobility and keep growing industrially, which will push them forward as superstate. But still, not a place where you would wish to live as a third world country immigrant in an observable future).

Therefore, it doesn't matter how bad Western economies get (and it will change eventually, no doubt about it), it is often still worse for Natives in in their own countries of origin. Even if materially they can make it better, spiritually for some it's a death of thousand cuts.

I sometimes grow very critical of things I observe in US (poor economy, cronism,highly religious population in 21 century, high school clique type social interactions, immaturity, childishness, some discrimination when you apply for a job or assigned a position and etc.), but whenever I compare it to what is actually going on in a developing world I almost fall on my knees and want to kiss the earth I walk on here.
Everything is relative, and provided what I know about Western world and developing world I would think more than twice before ever considering a move to overseas. Unless I was sent there by US or Canadian firm (as I mentioned above).

 

[Jinuvik]

Charlotte stories made my day.

Never been (or barely) in Canada, apply for permanent residency without truly knowing the country, pretending that she is super happy and then can't adapt and all the sudden everything is garbage ;D. The perfectly whinny and spoiled European.

Canada is awesome, been here 6 years, just applied for my permanent residency, lots of work huge money to be made, huge space, dont listen to her, keep the dream on even if it is disappointing. She talks a lot but her depression symptoms are quite obvious.

And I am a carpenter/log home builder, earning my life 4times better than in Europe and I never had any problems to find jobs. Canada is no place for liberal/aristocratic type of people that you will find all over Europe and are the big reason that Europe is such a failure.

And what pisses me off even more is that there is ton of people like that, that are juste wasting the PR quota.

Oh yeah and 7 months or something like that and she has many many Canadians friends !! So many that they are enough to describe Canadian economy. I guess we do not have the same definition for friends, must be Facebook friends

But one thing I agree, integration/immigration (i m not talking about papers) is a long and hard process and that is totally normal.

 

[david1697]

Jinuvik,

I won't defend Charlotte here (I don't know her, just stumbled upon her posts), and it's possible she is wrong on all or many accounts.
I found some serious discrepancy between her assessment of life and opportunities in Asia/Developing World vs what life truly is around that part of the world.

But I respectfully disagree with the way you talk about "Liberal" and/or "Aristocratic" values.

For your information, US and Canada are built on LIBERAL values and principles (just don't confuse definition of LIBERAL as was applicable in XIX century with something quite different , though under the same name, which emerged since mid XX century).

LIBERAL ideas are the ideas born out of the Age of Reason or Enlightment Age (Bacon, Spinoza, Descartes, Voltaire, Newton etc.). It coincided with Scientific Revolution and was opposed to superstition, dominance of irrational ideas and religious dogma. It declared all men to be endowed with inalienable rights and freedoms. You , as a carpenter, would be owned by someone today or abused to death ,instead of making a living you are happy with, had it not been for those men and women who advanced the ideas that you may underestimate now.

Wish you lots of success, happiness and long life ahead.

 

[Jinuvik]

David

I came to Canada because of those values, you are right. The use of this word was mainly to describe the socialistic/aristocratic cast that is ruling Europe today. And a lot of Canadian use the word Liberal to describe the more socialistic vision of economy, politics and society.

Northern America is a heaven for people like me that makes a living with their hand. Great wages, great opportunity and a lot of respect.

 

[mrbeachman]

Completely disagree on many points of view.

I live in South East Asia (Thiland) and my GF comes from a normal family and has a degree from a very average university.

She never had problem getting a job that pays well (considering the cost of living here and almost no taxes) she lives quite an ok life. As a matter of fact, she was able to take a loan on her house in her 20's and pay it off in just 5 years. I will be paying off my condo for the next 22 years.

Most of people in SE Asia may look poor, but they own quite a lot of land, either through inheritance or through some government subsidies (Rubber tree and palm tree farms come to mind). How did Canada ever help it's own people? I can't think of one example.

Also, every single English teacher I meet in Asia came here for one reason only. They could not get a job after graduating and making $1000 a month starting salary in Thailand is pretty decent where a luxury condo with a gym and pool in Bangkok can be had for $300. English teachers in Korea and Japan make 5 times that amount..... and these are low skilled English teaching jobs.

 

[david1697]

With all due respect mrbeachman,

There are skyscrapers in many cities of the third world/develping countries.
And there are some locals/native individuals who actually own them.

There are also an upper middle or middle class in most of those countries, and they may do well materially or 'ok' as your GF does.

We are not talking about the wealthiest (mafioso type corrupted state officials and very closely connected to them circles), nor
about those who found a way to get by (who knows what your GF dad or mom had to go through to give her a 'normal' life in Thailand, unless they themselves were born into normal lifestyle and were lucky to be able to maintain it. Not an easy task in itself in countries with rampant corruption and volatility).

We are talking about ordinary citizens who are born without privileges, are disadvantaged, constantly discriminated gainst and held down in their own native lands, throughout entire Third World/Developing countries. Some of them have high qualifications, like Indians who travel from India to UAE and put up with all sorts of insults and hardships before they can move to Canada or elsewhere.

What kind of opportunity those people have in their Native lands or in neighboring countries? What rights do they have if smeone exploits them,never pays agreed upon wages or even keeps them in enslaved conditions?

As poster above mentioned, child prostitution in Thailand is not invention of his fantasy, it's a real tragedy that exists there and everyone knows it.
Also, how about personal safety? Occasionally Westerners die in Bangkok under dubious curcumstances and very 'thorough' investigation by local police quickly rules it out as a suicide or substance abuse/overdose. I keep a tab on global news and a month doesn't go by without a report of some tourist tragically dying over there. What is the worth of human life in that part of the world? It's a rhetoric question, IMHO.

Best regards

 

[rhcohen2014]

Northern America is a heaven for people like me that makes a living with their hand. Great wages, great opportunity and a lot of respect.

yes, for sure! considering kids these days are not learning the trades, those who can do the work are going to be harder to come by and seen as more valuable because of it, in BOTH US and Canada!

 

[jazibkg]

yes, for sure! considering kids these days are not learning the trades, those who can do the work are going to be harder to come by and seen as more valuable because of it, in BOTH US and Canada!

For people like me (accountant by education), I feel that Canada somehow overpays blue collar work (not that you guys don't deserve it) and underpays white collar work. I'm earning at least 10% less than I was earning in the UK. However Canada does have many tax credits and all so I might be able to increase my disposable income (I didn't qualify for any tax credits in the UK).

I've lived in Asia, Europe and North America - one thing I can tell you from my personal experience is (and everybody knows that) is nowhere is perfect. I had a fairly comfortable life back in Pakistan, struggled hard and alone in the UK (later making and living it well in the UK), in Canada the struggle was entirely different in many senses.

When I moved to Canada from the UK, I expected it to be identical, and some of the differences (even small things like taxes not being displayed added to the shelf price) did seem appalling and ridiculous. No country has got everything 'right' out there. What we can do is learn, take and choose.

When you live on different continents you see the facts of the world on a much open minded scale, and we can't reduce the lives lived in each of these places as binary. Every experience is different. Charlotte never badmouthed Canada, she was just speaking about the general sense of existentialism the north american population may go through.

 

[Jinuvik]

They have deleted my posts, maybe Beachman was just offended that I argue with details. Freedom of speech
But thanks David I completely share your point of view

For people like me (accountant by education), I feel that Canada somehow overpays blue collar work (not that you guys don't deserve it) and underpays white collar work. I'm earning at least 10% less than I was earning in the UK.

Because you think that we are not your equal. You think that handwork does not involve brain work as much as your profession. You see, I respect your point your point of view, but this is that stupid mentality where "Educated" people are placed above people like me that contribute to the failure of Europe.

Northern America and especially the west is the continent that as David say try to put every men equal no matter its background and his education. Of course it does not always work. Yes I am making more money that a lot of accountant but my health is degrading much faster than you. Come and work outside when it is -20 below, with a 9kilos chainsaw in your left hand hand and you will see that your bones are slowly degenerating. At 45-50 I might not able to do the same work. But we get paid for our true value. In canada Kids can dream to be a Journey Man Carpenter, a Crane operator, an electrician... In Europe, those jobs are always given to the one that fails their education. I know a lot of kids in Alberta that take great pride in their apprenticeship even though they were good at school. And they also know that they will start making a living before a white collar.

As Rhcohen2014 say, it is a shame that less and less kids learns the trade but as an immigrant in the west with a few years behind me I can tell you that Canadian born have a lot of respect for us foreigner and they are not treating us at all like garbage labour.

I mean the Canadian/American dream is still here. When I came I was nothing, now I have a house that I built, a family born in Canada. But to think that the dream would be easy, to think that in a few months you can accomplished everything is non sense. Like many immigrants, I suffered, I wanted to give up but the achievement is here, like many others immigrants

Blue collar = White collar we need each other.

 

[on-hold]

Mr Beachman is right about Thailand in many ways -- the economy has developed there in different ways, many of which are superior to Canada. If you are going to be poor, or if you are earning a low wage, it is far, far better to live in rural Thailand than anywhere in Canada. Your life will not be a continual struggle to pay rent and eat; you will never get ahead without some luck, but your everyday life will not be that different from a wealthy person in the village. As for middle class rural people, they are so wealthy that sociologists have coined a term 'post-peasants' to define the phenomenon of uneducated farmers who have the same televisions, cell phones, land, trucks, and leisure as the Western middle class.

If you are middle class in Thailand, your life is as good as a middle-class person in the West.

Of course, life is cheaper there. It is easier to die, or to be injured and find that laws don't protect you -- but those are different issues than the economy, and it's important to avoid being too dramatic about them because if you accept Thailand's rules, you are generally safe there. And nothing I've said relates to Bangkok, I know nothing about that.

 

[david1697]

With all due respect to everyone, below is my individual opinion and you are free to agree or disagree with any part of it, I am just sharing my views on a subject of discussion.

Economy is not the only factor, it's just one of many that are very important when considering a move.
I have not heard about a lot of tourists coming to US and dying mysteriously. Yes, US has a lot of violence, but
still it takes a kind of very adventurous person to get murdered in US on a short visit. Chances of going to Canada as a stranger and perishing unexpectedly are even less. I don't think it's something of little significance or something I would be willing to dismiss lightly.

Next, your rights may not be something you are concerned about until someone in position of a greater power steps over you.
But you don't have an insurance policy to that nature of things and you just never know when it might be your turn to experience
a situation that you would rather do your best to avoid. And what would you do then?
Chances are you would not be justifying any advantages you gained prior to having to face such an experience, provided you had to pay for your gains with your freedom, or even worse, your life.
There are things taken for granted in civilized parts of the world and you may not appreciate it because you haven't seen it otherwise before.
IMHO.

 

[jazibkg]

They have deleted my posts, maybe Beachman was just offended that I argue with details. Freedom of speech
But thanks David I completely share your point of view

Because you think that we are not your equal. You think that handwork does not involve brain work as much as your profession. You see, I respect your point your point of view, but this is that stupid mentality where "Educated" people are placed above people like me that contribute to the failure of Europe.

Northern America and especially the west is the continent that as David say try to put every men equal no matter its background and his education. Of course it does not always work. Yes I am making more money that a lot of accountant but my health is degrading much faster than you. Come and work outside when it is -20 below, with a 9kilos chainsaw in your left hand hand and you will see that your bones are slowly degenerating. At 45-50 I might not able to do the same work. But we get paid for our true value. In canada Kids can dream to be a Journey Man Carpenter, a Crane operator, an electrician... In Europe, those jobs are always given to the one that fails their education. I know a lot of kids in Alberta that take great pride in their apprenticeship even though they were good at school. And they also know that they will start making a living before a white collar.

As Rhcohen2014 say, it is a shame that less and less kids learns the trade but as an immigrant in the west with a few years behind me I can tell you that Canadian born have a lot of respect for us foreigner and they are not treating us at all like garbage labour.

I mean the Canadian/American dream is still here. When I came I was nothing, now I have a house that I built, a family born in Canada. But to think that the dream would be easy, to think that in a few months you can accomplished everything is non sense. Like many immigrants, I suffered, I wanted to give up but the achievement is here, like many others immigrants

Blue collar = White collar we need each other.

My problem is not with trades workers being overpaid. My problem is with white collar work being underpaid and that being completely normal and acceptable. I'm sure you make more than $17/hour. I've done plenty of unskilled labour work myself (if unloading tires from trucks on a cold overnight shift counts as handwork) - I don't look down upon blue collar workers neither do I take pride in my education (I'm no smartass, I only passed exams because I put considerable amount of lengthy hours and effort to it). When you talk about this dream being alive, tell me how am I to even consider getting married, having a family and buying a house in Metro Vancouver with an income of less than $17/hour? I have two aging parents (one of them a senior) to look after, and a younger brother in high school who aspires to go to university in Canada, I hardly get to spend any money on myself or my own interests/aspirations. The north american dream might be alive for you, but for someone like me, at least in a few years time and testing the waters, it might soon be time to start rethinking matters. But maybe it isn't Canada's fault, maybe I'll pretty much end up in the same situation be it the UK or Pakistan. Oh as for kids in Canada having lot of respect for foreigners, I was pepper sprayed on the bus, shouted obscenities whilst walking to the mosque, so on so forth. I'm glad that you were able to get the respect that you deserved in Canada. I wish it was similar for most of us.

And in my opinion, Europe is not a failure.