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crossed the border with expired PR

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,286
3,048
Thank you Dpenabill for the details.
The officer at the booth sent us to a secondary interview with a CBSA, we were coming through Berlington. Me, My American son who is also in breach and other son who has an expired PR but had won the appeal (By the way he renewed his PR).The officer kept asking me why we came now and why not before. I told him that my son regained his PR and my wife is about to, and my other son and I wanted to join the family. He disappeared for 10 minutes and came back, handed all the passports to me and said go on, he didn't even talk to my sons who are 20 and 21. I said "that's it what should I do? he said nothing just go". I asked him about next step he said he will write a report to his office in downtown.
We left.
I didn't intend to play any games, I said since he didn't ask me about my address, or I didn't fill out any paper, and since he hasn't mention anything about revoking or appealing, I decided to wait and see without contacting them.

No formal 44(1) Inadmissibility Report was issued to me.
I assumed there was no reporting.

The advice I need, is:
1-should I contact them or this will open an investigation.
2-I have updated my address at SAAQ and recently when filed my taxes. Do I UPDATE my address as well at all other departments including IRCC.

3-Based on the above what are my chances that I wasn't reported?

thanks
As I noted, there are very few reports about PRs not issued a 44(1) Report at the PoE who are later subject to a RO related investigation based on a referral from the PoE . . . UNLESS or UNTIL they engage in a transaction with CBSA (border crossing) or IRCC (typically an application for a new PR card). Few reports in the forum. And, significantly, also not commonly seen in actual cases reflected in published IAD decisions (recognizing that not all PR RO cases clearly indicate how the PR was Reported . . . but also noting that, per a rough estimate, it seems there are many more PR TD application denials appealed than 44(1) Reports).

So it does not seem to be a common practice. Which suggests, but is far shy of a guarantee, that not getting issued a 44(1) Report at the PoE basically means all you need to do is wait for two years and the previous breach is cured.

I cannot advise whether or not you should contact IRCC. I do not give advice (except to the extent I repeat banal platitudes or restate definite rules). I would approach any advice offered in a forum like this with much skepticism since this really is NOT an appropriate forum for seeking or giving advice. Basically, if advice here is what is consistent with both official and authoritative sources, yeah, that's not really advice, that is restating what IRCC information says. Otherwise, advice here is not to be trusted.

That said, I am not sure why you would contact IRCC at this stage. Canadian PRs do not need to inform IRCC of their current address (unless they are involved in an active proceeding, like applying for a new card or citizenship).

As for the chances you were "reported" . . . if you were not formally issued a 44(1) Report, that is the key thing.

Odds are there was a "report" . . . but again perhaps only in the sense that a note or record or flag or alert, whatever the label, was submitted into your GCMS records. That would mostly be about making a record. That would NOT likely cause any further action to be taken (as I've outlined) UNLESS and UNTIL you engaged in a transaction with CBSA (border crossing) or IRCC (application for new card or such).

This should be of little surprise. I do not know what the parameters are, but there are still many indications that PoE officials can be quite lenient about enforcing RO compliance. A PR is still a PR. If the PR is coming into Canada to stay, well that is what Canada granted PR status for, so the person could settle in Canada. If the PR is not coming into Canada to stay, they will soon enough be engaged in another screening, at the border or while applying for a PR TD, and the flag in GCMS should suffice to trigger tougher enforcement if, in the circumstances, that appears warranted. Of course the PR can also, always, force a formal RO compliance determination by applying for a new PR card.

But at the PoE it can be a bit like driving over the speed limit. We know there is always a risk of getting a ticket when we speed, but trying to articulate quantified risks for going between 10k and 40k over the limit, there are lots of variables, including law enforcement priorities which can vary from week to week.

There is a chance the PoE officials made a specific referral to IRCC (more than just flagging GCMS) . . . and even though it is more likely no action was taken on that (again IRCC seems inclined to wait to see if the PR engages in another transaction), it is also possible a formal investigation was commenced. And if so, that could be in limbo (again waiting to see if the PR engages in another transaction), in which case it is OK to do nothing to trigger action on it (until you have been IN Canada for two years and have cured the RO breach), or it possibly could have resulted in a formal determination after notice was sent to your last known address. So I cannot rule out the latter. It is possible. Trying to quantify the odds is not going to illuminate much.

NOTE about updating addresses: the Canadian government is not monolithic . . . nowhere near. Updating addresses with Quebec authorities has nothing to do with federal agencies. Providing up-to-date address information to CRA has nothing to do with IRCC. Again, PRs do NOT need to keep IRCC informed of their current address unless specifically asked or unless they are involved in an ongoing proceeding (like PR card application or citizenship application or if they have appealed a Removal Order or such).
 
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Hadysaade

Star Member
Jun 21, 2017
96
21
As I noted, there are very few reports about PRs not issued a 44(1) Report at the PoE who are later subject to a RO related investigation based on a referral from the PoE . . . UNLESS or UNTIL they engage in a transaction with CBSA (border crossing) or IRCC (typically an application for a new PR card). Few reports in the forum. And, significantly, also not commonly seen in actual cases reflected in published IAD decisions (recognizing that not all PR RO cases clearly indicate how the PR was Reported . . . but also noting that, per a rough estimate, it seems there are many more PR TD application denials appealed than 44(1) Reports).

So it does not seem to be a common practice. Which suggests, but is far shy of a guarantee, that not getting issued a 44(1) Report at the PoE basically means all you need to do is wait for two years and the previous breach is cured.

I cannot advise whether or not you should contact IRCC. I do not give advice (except to the extent I repeat banal platitudes or restate definite rules). I would approach any advice offered in a forum like this with much skepticism since this really is NOT an appropriate forum for seeking or giving advice. Basically, if advice here is what is consistent with both official and authoritative sources, yeah, that's not really advice, that is restating what IRCC information says. Otherwise, advice here is not to be trusted.

That said, I am not sure why you would contact IRCC at this stage. Canadian PRs do not need to inform IRCC of their current address (unless they are involved in an active proceeding, like applying for a new card or citizenship).

As for the chances you were "reported" . . . if you were not formally issued a 44(1) Report, that is the key thing.

Odds are there was a "report" . . . but again perhaps only in the sense that a note or record or flag or alert, whatever the label, was submitted into your GCMS records. That would mostly be about making a record. That would NOT likely cause any further action to be taken (as I've outlined) UNLESS and UNTIL you engaged in a transaction with CBSA (border crossing) or IRCC (application for new card or such).

This should be of little surprise. I do not know what the parameters are, but there are still many indications that PoE officials can be quite lenient about enforcing RO compliance. A PR is still a PR. If the PR is coming into Canada to stay, well that is what Canada granted PR status for, so the person could settle in Canada. If the PR is not coming into Canada to stay, they will soon enough be engaged in another screening, at the border or while applying for a PR TD, and the flag in GCMS should suffice to trigger tougher enforcement if, in the circumstances, that appears warranted. Of course the PR can also, always, force a formal RO compliance determination by applying for a new PR card.

But at the PoE it can be a bit like driving over the speed limit. We know there is always a risk of getting a ticket when we speed, but trying to articulate quantified risks for going between 10k and 40k over the limit, there are lots of variables, including law enforcement priorities which can vary from week to week.

There is a chance the PoE officials made a specific referral to IRCC (more than just flagging GCMS) . . . and even though it is more likely no action was taken on that (again IRCC seems inclined to wait to see if the PR engages in another transaction), it is also possible a formal investigation was commenced. And if so, that could be in limbo (again waiting to see if the PR engages in another transaction), in which case it is OK to do nothing to trigger action on it (until you have been IN Canada for two years and have cured the RO breach), or it possibly could have resulted in a formal determination after notice was sent to your last known address. So I cannot rule out the latter. It is possible. Trying to quantify the odds is not going to illuminate much.

NOTE about updating addresses: the Canadian government is not monolithic . . . nowhere near. Updating addresses with Quebec authorities has nothing to do with federal agencies. Providing up-to-date address information to CRA has nothing to do with IRCC. Again, PRs do NOT need to keep IRCC informed of their current address unless specifically asked or unless they are involved in an ongoing proceeding (like PR card application or citizenship application or if they have appealed a Removal Order or such).
Thank you for the details.
Thinking of the situation and the risk associated with contacting them and triggering an investigation, and without discounting the possible risk of having them already initiated an investigation, I would rather wait for another 15 months and apply for PR Card renewal, if the application is declined and I am asked to leave the country I will do that then.
In the meantime, if any of the members knows a way to check my status or my address at IRCC
Thank you again
 

canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
52,981
12,775
Your wife still has to complete her H&C so that will be your next obstacle. We don’t know the details of her H&C but that also may lead to more investigation into your family.
 

jennythom91

Member
May 14, 2016
13
0
I also have a question if someone can help.

Back in 2010, when my PR card was still valid, I got pulled for a talk. I had been living back in the UK at the time. I told the border officer this at the time, because at that time, I had no plans to come back and he kind of looked at my card, at the other officer and handed my stuff back.

Now, I ended up coming back in 2016 and made it through the US border, I wasnt in compliance with the RO. She took my card, asked why it wasn't renewed since 2013 ( I said I hadn't got round to it) , scanned it in and said I was free to go.

Now i'm applying for a new card after meeting the requirements. However, this thread has worried me. What if the first time all those years ago when I stated I wasn't living in Canada anymore, if he tried to Revoke my status and it never made it to me? I've made a life here now and I'm terrified.

Im thinking that the lady at the border when I gave her my card would have seen that it was revoked when she scanned it? Also I applied for an eTa as I didn't realise I stil had it and I got the standard email 'We think you may be a permanent resident so you don't need one' and because I didn't reply, I got another saying 'As you didn't reply, we assume you wanted to keep your PR status so have closed the eTA case.'

Also - When I came to visit over the years, I never showed my PR card, just my UK passport and they never questioned me. . URgh. Panic mode.

Any clarification would be awesome.
 

k.h.p.

VIP Member
Mar 1, 2019
8,810
2,249
Canada
If you didn't receive a s.44(1) report form from the border officer when you came back in 2016, you were likely not reported. It seems that the border officer who let you in with an expired card wasn't feeling like reporting you that day.

As has been said above, it's really an unknown quantity of people who may have been reported for RO breach if they are not given a 44(1) report. I certainly haven't read of people who were admitted without receiving a report at the border and then, later, being reported for the breach - unless they attempted to renew their cards while still being in breach, or tried to sponsor a family member, or whatnot.

I can't advise you on anything, but if you were not explicitly told you were reported on your your way in, you probably were not reported. Unless you were, and a formal determination was sent to you at your last known address. But you didn't get a report at the border, so at least there's that.
 

Hadysaade

Star Member
Jun 21, 2017
96
21
Dear All,
Thank you for all the info provided.
If I want to board an internal flightfrom Trudeau Airport in Montreal to Pearson Airport in Toronto, do I need to pass by immigration? I only have my Canadian DL, of course in addition to my non-Canadian passport. Will I be risking myself?

Thanks
 

k.h.p.

VIP Member
Mar 1, 2019
8,810
2,249
Canada
Dear All,
Thank you for all the info provided.
If I want to board an internal flightfrom Trudeau Airport in Montreal to Pearson Airport in Toronto, do I need to pass by immigration? I only have my Canadian DL, of course in addition to my non-Canadian passport. Will I be risking myself?

Thanks
Not for an internal flight, you do not need to worry.
 

Hadysaade

Star Member
Jun 21, 2017
96
21
Hello
I am still in Montreal working and living normal hope all goes well until July 1st when It becomes 2 years here.
in the meantime, it has been around 20 months that We have private insurance. Now I feel we need government insurance because my son might need to be treated for an illness that he had before I got the private insurance and they might not cover.
My question is, do you recommend that we apply for RAMQ or will this trigger immigration issues?
Thanks a lot
 
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canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
52,981
12,775
Hello
I am still in Montreal working and living normal hope all goes well until July 1st when It becomes 2 years here.
in the meantime, it has been around 20 months that We have private insurance. Now I feel we need government insurance because my son might need to be treated for an illness that he had before I got the private insurance and they might not cover.
My question is, do you recommend that we apply for RAMQ or will this trigger immigration issues?
Thanks a lot
Is this the child without PR?
 

Hadysaade

Star Member
Jun 21, 2017
96
21
Yes, he is 21 now. And I was inquiring if we all apply (excluding my wife since she lost her appeals)
This son and I are waiting to meet RO, while other son has PR and daughter is born Canadian
 

canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
52,981
12,775
Yes, he is 21 now. And I was inquiring if we all apply (excluding my wife since she lost her appeals)
This son and I are waiting to meet RO, while other son has PR and daughter is born Canadian
Will depend if RAMQ accepts the application without a valid PR card. There will also be a 3 month wait time before he has access to services and then likely await time of many months to see a specialist if needed.
 

Hadysaade

Star Member
Jun 21, 2017
96
21
Thanks for the reply. If I apply, will the RAMQ report about immigration status when they find out we were away from 2009 till July 2019?