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Police Certificate requirement for countries where an individual spent 6+ months

avro1959

Full Member
Sep 13, 2014
49
26
Hi all,

One of the documents required for citizenship applications is a police certificate. See relevant text below from the Instruction Guide.

9. Police certificate(s) (as required)

For any country, other than Canada, where you were present for six (6) months or longer (cumulative) during the four (4) years immediately before the date of your application, you are required to provide a police certificate for that country.
Within the 4 years immediately before the date of my application, I have visited South Korea numerous times on business trips. Cumulative time spent there is definitely over 6 months.

My question is - is the police certificate requirement applicable for non-residence visits such as for tourism or business trips?

Thanks!
 

manianz47

Hero Member
Sep 15, 2008
306
11
Hi
Yes
The wordings: where you were present for six (6) months or longer (cumulative) means that you should provide
 

dpenabill

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Apr 2, 2010
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avro1959 said:
Hi all,

One of the documents required for citizenship applications is a police certificate. See relevant text below from the Instruction Guide.

Within the 4 years immediately before the date of my application, I have visited South Korea numerous times on business trips. Cumulative time spent there is definitely over 6 months.

My question is - is the police certificate requirement applicable for non-residence visits such as for tourism or business trips?

Thanks!
As already noted, the instruction is straight-forward. If the total number of days spent abroad in a particular country add up to 183, CIC is at least instructing the applicant to submit a police certificate from that country.

And yes, indeed, this is a new and potentially (depending on the country involved) onerous requirement.

Beyond that, however, no one here has any experience with this, as this is brand new, totally brand NEW. Who knows to what extent CIC has even settled practices in place for screening this particular addition to the application.

I do not know the current policy and practice for those applying for Permanent Residence, but when I went through that process, it was indeed only countries in which one had resided for six months or more. The difference is big.

The reason for the new requirement is the expanded prohibitions which now include criminal charges and convictions and such abroad, not just in Canada. Adding this made sense of course, particularly given the extent to which a PR could spend time abroad and still qualify for citizenship (now up to two years in the relevant time), and if criminal activity is to be a prohibition (which of course almost everyone would agree it should be) it did not make sense to allow a pass for such criminal conduct abroad.

But yes, for many countries in the world, obtaining a Police Certificate is not easy, and for perhaps most it takes time, not something one can request and obtain in a week or three. So this is indeed a substantial new burden imposed on those who apply for citizenship and who have maintained significant ongoing ties to a country abroad within the preceding four years. In that regard, I suspect this provision, and this particular requirement for making a complete application, is indeed also about giving CIC tools to probe the extent to which an applicant has ongoing ties in another country . . . sooner or later the processing of citizenship applications will involve balancing the applicant's ties to a life in Canada versus ties abroad, given the intent-to-continue-to-reside-in-Canada requirement.

That said, I wonder if this will be something screened for completeness. Probably one can guess. But if it is a matter of adding up twenty trips to a total of just over 183, none of the individual trips for as long as three weeks, not sure. But of course it would be foolish to submit the application not following the instructions.
 

manianz47

Hero Member
Sep 15, 2008
306
11
Adding to the above post:

Also the Police Certificates do have a validity period [about 6 months, may be]
If so, you can not obtain it dated 6 months or earlier than the date of Citizenship application submission [or receipt by CIC]

If obtaining PCC from any country will take more than 6 months, that request should be initiated first, I trust
 

avro1959

Full Member
Sep 13, 2014
49
26
dpenabill and manianz47, I really appreciate your insights on this. I wasn't aware this was a new requirement for Citizenship applications. I'm curious to see how they intend to screen for this.

My first worry that comes to mind is whether South Korea would actually be able to provide a Police Certificate considering I have not actually resided in South Korea. From looking at the process, it seems like I need to provide a copy of my Korean Identification when making the request. I have no such document so if the Korean Embassy is unable to provide a police certificate, I guess I'm going to have to enclose an explanatory letter and hope that CIC accepts it.

dpenabill said:
The reason for the new requirement is the expanded prohibitions which now include criminal charges and convictions and such abroad, not just in Canada. Adding this made sense of course, particularly given the extent to which a PR could spend time abroad and still qualify for citizenship (now up to two years in the relevant time), and if criminal activity is to be a prohibition (which of course almost everyone would agree it should be) it did not make sense to allow a pass for such criminal conduct abroad.
Is it actually fair that criminal conduct abroad is considered a prohibition? Does CIC do some kind of equivalency test to check if the crime abroad is also a crime in Canada? For example in Ireland, all traffic violations are criminal offenses. I hope someone isn't being barred from citizenship because of an unpaid parking fine. :eek:
Also consider the case of countries that lack fair trials altogether where you could be convicted without sufficient evidence.

But yes, for many countries in the world, obtaining a Police Certificate is not easy, and for perhaps most it takes time, not something one can request and obtain in a week or three. So this is indeed a substantial new burden imposed on those who apply for citizenship and who have maintained significant ongoing ties to a country abroad within the preceding four years. In that regard, I suspect this provision, and this particular requirement for making a complete application, is indeed also about giving CIC tools to probe the extent to which an applicant has ongoing ties in another country . . . sooner or later the processing of citizenship applications will involve balancing the applicant's ties to a life in Canada versus ties abroad, given the intent-to-continue-to-reside-in-Canada requirement.
In this case, it would make more sense if CIC did not add the "cumulative" phrase if they're trying to determine ties to foreign countries. Generally if people have significant ties to foreign countries, they spend really long periods of time outside Canada.

It's hard enough that days outside Canada for genuine reasons can't be counted towards citizenship, and now we're having to prove lack of foreign ties even when we've been resident in Canada throughout! I've been a PR since 2010, worked for a Canadian company since then, paying ridiculously high Canadian taxes, and through the misfortune of being in a profession (manufacturing engineering) that requires frequent travel to countries where manufacturing takes place (Korea, China, etc), I'm being penalized with an ever-so-elusive citizenship that is still at least 2.5 to 3 years away for me because of said absences.

Apologies for the rant at the end, but thanks again for clarifying the situation !!
 

on-hold

Champion Member
Feb 6, 2010
1,120
131
Good Lord, this is ghastly. I'm moderately sympathetic with the impulse behind this -- of course it's good to know that someone is not a criminal -- but it opens so many cans of worms regarding the judicial systems of different countries, and how much weight these should be given when weighing a prospective Canadian . . . Not to mention the logistic hell of getting these. When my wife and I were applying for PR we were resident in Thailand, where police certificates can ONLY be obtained by visiting Bangkok, a trip of some 600 kilometers. We had a newborn, so my wife tried to fly down in a single day and do it -- on that day, a truck hit a power pole and knocked out electricity for the National Police Station . . .

If she's in Canada, imagine the issues . . . it's just not right, if someone is primarily settled in Canada. Crikey, let the election hasten towards us.
 

dpenabill

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Apr 2, 2010
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Yeah, for some applicants this is likely to be an issue. For most, however, just to reach the 1460 day threshold, it will not be an issue. Most applicants will not have been outside Canada six months total in the previous four years, let alone six months in one country.

But sure, again, for those affected, yes, this imposes a significant burden.



I recall seeing very little discussion or commentary about expanding the prohibitions to include foreign criminal charges and convictions, and frankly I have not examined the relevant provisions much either.

That said, to make this change seemed obvious. Over the years, for example, there have been queries in the forums from individuals who had various criminal charges in the U.S., relatively minor offences (retail theft, domestic assault, breach of the peace, driving while impaired), for which there was no jail time but periods of probation. These individuals faced no restriction relative to applying for Canadian citizenship, while someone similarly charged and convicted in Canada suffered the prohibition.

Frankly, while there were only a few such queries (I have seen anyway), those making the query seemed skeptical that they faced no problems in terms of qualifying for Canadian citizenship. Common-sense would suggest that a drunk driving conviction in Ontario or New York State would have similar if not the very same consequences relative to qualifying for a grant of Canadian citizenship.

They did not.

Now they do.

In contrast, in particular, until the SCCA, until June 10, 2015, the Ontario conviction resulted in a prohibition (my recall is that it was for three years) and the New York conviction was irrelevant, of no effect. Now both will result in a prohibition for four years and any time incarcerated will not count toward the presence requirement (obviously time incarcerated abroad will not count toward presence anyway). There is still some difference: the time on probabtion in Canada will not count toward the presence requirement, but this does not apply to foreign probation.


As I noted, there was minimal discussion about this while Bill C-24 was pending, and even less about it since the SCCA was adopted and became law. I recall seeing no discussion about this leading to the inclusion of police certificates in the application.

Perhaps this was no surprise to stakeholders (consultants, lawyers, others directly involved in the process with CIC). I did not see anyone in this or the other forums hint, let alone overtly predict, that the new applications would require police certificates to be included. I did not think about it and was quite surprised when late on June 11 I had my first glimpse of the new forms and checklist and saw the requirement to include police certificates for any country in which the applicant had spent a total of six months in the previous four years.

It is worth emphasizing, though, that this reaches back only four years, not the full six within the presence requirement time frame.

And while there is probably a significantly large number of immigrants in situations similar to the OP, the overall number of PRs applying for citizenship who have spent six months in any one given country abroad within the previous four years is probably a fairly small minority, among whom the majority (of those within that small minority) probably do have substantial ongoing ties to that country. This government, at least (but perhaps any government would be similar), tends to overlook the impact of these things on such a small minority when there is a clear objective in targeting the group. So here this is about targeting applicants spending 6+ months in four years in a particular country, recognizing that among this group the majority probably have significant ongoing ties in that country, and only a very small number will have transitory ties similar to the OP here.


The logistics of obtaining the police certificate:

As noted, I did not see anyone hint let alone predict this was going to be required. And indeed, for those affected, depending on the particular country, this could be a very substantial burden if not very difficult.

For now, for those affected, such as the OP here (except later posts suggest this is largely hypothetical relative to a future application, not about actually preparing an application to be submitted soon), I would suggest going to CIC's information for PR applicants regarding obtaining police certificates.

Last I noticed, even the U.S. police certificate application can sometimes take several months. Actual timeline has varied from time to time in the past.

BTW: Most police certificates do not have an expiration date. There is an obvious reason for this: they only represent information up to the date they are issued. They are, in essence, outdated the day after they are issued.

For PR applications, last I was aware CIC had a policy to consider older police certificates as outdated (after six months? my recall is fuzzy). This was CIC policy, not the policy of the country issuing the certificate, not about an expiration date for the police certificate. But this was not a hard and fast rule, more a guideline and I believe it could be flexibly applied relative to the applicant's actual geographical location.

Timeline to obtain the police certificate, however, can be unpredictable in many countries. For those who need to do this, this could indeed be a headache. Again, for now perhaps CIC's information for police certificates for those applying for PR would be the first resource to check.
 

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manianz47 said:
Hi
Yes
The wordings: where you were present for six (6) months or longer (cumulative) means that you should provide
Regarding this new rule - how does a partial day spent in a country count towards this rule? If my wife goes to visit the family in the US and she leaves friday night and comes back sunday night, how many days was she in the USA in regards to this above requirement? Does it mimic the current counting method that PR and Citizenship uses (any partial day spent in Canada counts as a day spent in Canada)? I'm going to guess "yes" and she would count 3 days in the USA but CIC should clear this up.
 

ABscientist

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Mar 26, 2014
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I got an extra piece of paper saying that the new laws prohibit anyone from ecoming a citizen if:

1. They have *any* convicted crime from *any* country, even if they have been pardoned.
2 .... usual yada yada

...


This requirement is probably to satisfy that first point.
 

neutral

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Wow :eek: :eek: :eek:

When you think you have read all the instructions.... I never realized the "cumulative" part. So I'd have aprox. 190 days in the same country in the last 4 years. Well, I already have my ROA so if they want my policy certificate they have just to ask for it.
Btw, they don't know that I spent 190 days there so who knows...... ::)
 

dpenabill

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Apr 2, 2010
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neutral said:
Wow :eek: :eek: :eek:

When you think you have read all the instructions.... I never realized the "cumulative" part. So I'd have aprox. 190 days in the same country in the last 4 years. Well, I already have my ROA so if they want my policy certificate they have just to ask for it.
Btw, they don't know that I spent 190 days there so who knows...... ::)
They do know, at minimum because the applicant informs them . . . unless the applicant has committed fraud in not disclosing travel destinations in the residency/presence calculation.

It warrants noting that the new prohibitions provisions apply to ALL applicants, even those whose application was in process prior to June 11, 2015.

This is a significant change. The scope of prohibitions for indictable offences now goes back to four years previous to the date of application, and includes offences outside Canada which, if committed in Canada, would constitute an indictable offence.

Thus, there are a number of reports in forums that applicants with applications in process and being scheduled for a test or the oath are receiving new forms to complete regarding the absence of prohibitions. While these reports have not detailed what is in these forms, it is most likely a request to affirm the absence of prohibitions given the changes (the quite radically expanded scope of prohibitions). Previously (such as when I attended my interview, and again at the oath) applicants merely signed a form at the interview and before the oath itself affirming the absence of prohibitions as reported in the application and since applying. Obviously, the new forms go back four years instead of just three, and include foreign offences.

I have not seen anyone with an application already in process receiving a request for a police certificate from another country, but this may something CIC does going forward for applications made prior to June 11 (applications made after June 10 include the requirement to include the certificate with the application).

This is actually quite a huge change for applicants who applied before June 11. Not one that was discussed much before (the conversations about the impact of Bill C-24 tending to be bogged down in red herrings).
 

neutral

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dpenabill said:
They do know, at minimum because the applicant informs them . . . unless the applicant has committed fraud in not disclosing travel destinations in the residency/presence calculation.

It warrants noting that the new prohibitions provisions apply to ALL applicants, even those whose application was in process prior to June 11, 2015.

This is a significant change. The scope of prohibitions for indictable offences now goes back to four years previous to the date of application, and includes offences outside Canada which, if committed in Canada, would constitute an indictable offence.

Thus, there are a number of reports in forums that applicants with applications in process and being scheduled for a test or the oath are receiving new forms to complete regarding the absence of prohibitions. While these reports have not detailed what is in these forms, it is most likely a request to affirm the absence of prohibitions given the changes (the quite radically expanded scope of prohibitions). Previously (such as when I attended my interview, and again at the oath) applicants merely signed a form at the interview and before the oath itself affirming the absence of prohibitions as reported in the application and since applying. Obviously, the new forms go back four years instead of just three, and include foreign offences.

I have not seen anyone with an application already in process receiving a request for a police certificate from another country, but this may something CIC does going forward for applications made prior to June 11 (applications made after June 10 include the requirement to include the certificate with the application).

This is actually quite a huge change for applicants who applied before June 11. Not one that was discussed much before (the conversations about the impact of Bill C-24 tending to be bogged down in red herrings).
There is no place where I can give that information that's why they can't know it. There isn't a fraud. The only form is the Residence Calculator that is conceived to just count the days we are in Canada to meet the residency requirements so if I traveled to many countries in one trip, there is no way they can know how many days I stayed in each country.

I'm traveling to my home country on November so if my applications is still being processed, I'd take advantage and bring the Police Certificate with me just in case.
 

on-hold

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Feb 6, 2010
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In the comments of the Residence Calculator you are asked to explain any secondary trips -- for example, the week that I spent in Germany while spending 10 months in the United States.
 

neutral

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on-hold said:
In the comments of the Residence Calculator you are asked to explain any secondary trips -- for example, the week that I spent in Germany while spending 10 months in the United States.
Not exactly.

According to the Physical Presence Calculator instructions:

"*Please list all your absences outside Canada between ............ and ............ and select 'Add Absence'. Select 'Calculate' when you have finished listing all absences.

You must list all absences from Canada even if accompanied by a family member who is a permanent resident or citizen of Canada, including trips for the purpose of business, pleasure or vacation, visits to family members, and trips to the United States, etc.

Note: If you visited more than one country during the same absence, list the first country in 'Destination' and list the other countries in the 'Reason' field."

And that's what I did. I put in Destination the first country (where I just stayed 3 days) and in Reason all the other countries plus the reason of my trip.
But NOWHERE they ask you to specify how much days I spent in every country. And when I was doing this, I found it logic as this Calculator is only interested in counting your days outside Canada so if I visited 3 or 8 countries in the period of time I was abroad, is irrelevant concerning the residence requirement.
 

dpenabill

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Apr 2, 2010
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So CIC may tend to infer you stayed more than 183 days in the wrong country.

Tough spot if they want police certificates for additional countries just because of the lack of detail included in the Residency Calculator.

Main thing, though, if asked to submit a police certificate for any country in which more than 183 days were spent, is to be sure to provide a police certificate for any country which indeed is one where you spent 183 or more days . . . failure to submit the requested police certificate could be deemed a material omission.

And as I have emphasized elsewhere, it is never a good idea to rely on CIC not knowing something.

In the meantime, I have not yet seen a report that CIC is actually asking applicants , those with applications already in process, to supplement the application with police certificates for any country in which they spent 183 or more days within the four years prior to applying. Seems possible they will ask. Perhaps they will only make this request for selected applicants (such as those whose residency calculations reflect 183+ days abroad total). But as yet I have not seen a report they are in fact asking.