Citizenship application - Hire a lawyer vs Apply on my own

[sodapop123]

Let's say i go about submitting my citizenship on my own and there happens to be a complication/questions/ in the worst case a rejection.
Can i then at that stage, go about finding and hiring a lawyer to help midway through /or after rejection to appeal or re-apply ?

Or is that something that's not possible at all and one has to hire a lawyer to represent you before applying in the first place ?

I seem to have understood the process and think i can do it myself and save the extra $, but just wondering about this as i plan to apply soon.

Additionally, What does a rejection of citizenship application (due to failure to verify physical presence) then mean for one's PR status. Would you still remain a PR and can re-apply for citizenship whenever at a later stage ?

 

[armoured]

Let's say i go about submitting my citizenship on my own and there happens to be a complication/questions/ in the worst case a rejection.
Can i then at that stage, go about finding and hiring a lawyer to help midway through /or after rejection to appeal or re-apply ?

Or is that something that's not possible at all and one has to hire a lawyer to represent you before applying in the first place ?

I seem to have understood the process and think i can do it myself and save the extra $, but just wondering about this as i plan to apply soon.

Vast majority of applicants prepare without a lawyer or assistance of any kind. Should you need later, you can hire a lawyer.

Additionally, What does a rejection of citizenship application (due to failure to verify physical presence) then mean for one's PR status. Would you still remain a PR and can re-apply for citizenship whenever at a later stage ?

As long as your physical presence is sufficient to meet residency obligation (730 days instead of 1095), it won't threaten your PR status (note that you have to remain in compliance throughout the citizenship process, even if it takes a long time (even if that's rare). Obviously if they discover other things that could result in revoking PR status, some types of criminality etc., that would be an issue.

But a serious suggestion or point: for the last several years at least IRCC has had / has access to decent entry-exit records. If you have some doubt about physical presence, or the number of days, or your own records - wait until you have the required number of days plus a decent buffer (amount really dependent on how complex).

Plus you could order your entry/exit records under ATIP (privacy / access to personal info) from the border services agency, CBSA. Note that CBSA records sometimes have missing entries/exits, but are for the most part quite complete. It can be useful to order them if you have a lot of entries and exits and want to check your records, OR didn't keep good records yourself. (Note that you are still resposnible for submitting correct information). This can help reduce the risk of processing being held up substantially while they check your physical presence.

It can also be an issue of checks if the applicant is including a lot of days from before becoming a PR and the status of the applicant during this period can't be completely verified in the IRCC system. (That's a somewhat complex topic so this is a brief summary)

 

[dpenabill]

Let's say i go about submitting my citizenship on my own and there happens to be a complication/questions/ in the worst case a rejection.
Can i then at that stage, go about finding and hiring a lawyer to help midway through /or after rejection to appeal or re-apply ?

Or is that something that's not possible at all and one has to hire a lawyer to represent you before applying in the first place ?

I seem to have understood the process and think i can do it myself and save the extra $, but just wondering about this as i plan to apply soon.

Additionally, What does a rejection of citizenship application (due to failure to verify physical presence) then mean for one's PR status. Would you still remain a PR and can re-apply for citizenship whenever at a later stage ?

I concur in observations posted by @armoured including, in particular and with some emphasis, that the citizenship application is simple and straightforward enough the vast majority of applicants do not need and do not obtain assistance from lawyers. It is probably quite unusual to hire a lawyer.

A significant number of citizenship applicants who need help navigating transactions generally probably rely on assistance from others, including some formally relying on a "representative" (who can be trusted family or friend so long as they are not being paid to be a representative). So do not hesitate to get help from someone you trust.

Frankly, your situation (no international travel for many years, among other factors) in conjunction with your level of concern about potential rejection and consequences hints there is some issue bothering you. Hard to guess if you are just overthinking things (which is quite common), a little or even a lot paranoid (plenty of cause for that these days), or there is something in particular. If it is about being very cautious, relax, read and follow the instructions, get someone you trust to go over the instructions with you and to help you complete the application.

If you have not left Canada for many years (as your post about a PR card application indicates), meaning months more than three years at least, it is not likely your application would be denied for failing to meet the physical presence requirement. But, if it is denied because of physical presence, that would have no impact on a future application.

If your concern about physical presence is related to things like being on probation or having been incarcerated or otherwise about criminal charges (that for obvious reasons you would be reluctant to share online), that's a more complicated discussion and the particular details matter. If this is the situation, again maybe a trusted family member or friend could help you go over things, or you could share more information online (limited and carefully), or that might be a scenario in which a lawyer's help would be useful (probably just a paid consultation, paying a lawyer to review your situation in detail, not necessarily needing the lawyer to make the application).

But a serious suggestion or point: for the last several years at least IRCC has had / has access to decent entry-exit records. If you have some doubt about physical presence, or the number of days, or your own records - wait until you have the required number of days plus a decent buffer (amount really dependent on how complex).

Rest of post is a good overview applicable to almost any PR qualified for a grant of citizenship.

And, of course, this particular observation about travel history and when to apply is prudent advice for many, many applicants.

But . . . your last paragraph regarding pre-PR credit is not likely to be relevant because this individual appears to have landed as a PR more than eight years ago, or at least, as you are probably aware (given your response to the OP's query about supporting documents for a PR card application yesterday) a PR long enough for their PR card to expire many years ago. Which I mention only because in conjunction with other aspects of the OP's posts, noting too that the OP states (in the other thread) they never bothered to renew their PR card because they "didn't need to travel internationally . . . " for me (anyway) there are some curiosity flags waving for someone who has been a PR for more than eight years just now applying for a new PR card and citizenship, concerned about needing a lawyer to apply for citizenship, various other factual circumstances (including, just for example, zero income but filing tax returns). Could be overthinking or paranoia, or . . . wondering if something else might be going on (some of which I get into a bit above in response to OP).

 

[armoured]

But . . . your last paragraph regarding pre-PR credit is not likely to be relevant because this individual appears to have landed as a PR more than eight years ago ... Could be overthinking or paranoia, or . . . wondering if something else might be going on (some of which I get into a bit above in response to OP).

Reasonable points. Poster had referred to concern about "due to failure to verify physical presence", which prompted my text.

So it may be concern about something else, or it may be (misplaced) concern about how to prove physical presence - unless there's something specifically about physical presence that's an issue.

 

[sodapop123]

Thanks for the responses (@dpenabill & @armoured ) ! Just went through your replies and really appreciate the advice.

I have decided to go ahead with the application myself, now that i know i can hire a lawyer later if a complication/situation ever arises.

From what you guys shared, i gather it should be pretty straightforward since IRCC should be able to verify my presence themselves as per what @armoured said : "for the last several years at least IRCC has had / has access to decent entry-exit records"

As for why i made this post in the first place :

1. I'm just trying to do my research, go through the citizenship application package and cover all the bases, to make sure my citizenship application goes through smoothly.
2. The sole concern i have in my case/situation is/was : Being unemployed while in Canada as a PR and the effect it would have on my citizenship application (because i won't have T4/payslips and my taxes filed for the past 5 eligbility years would say zero income on the NOA), that's all.
3. No special circumstances like probation/criminal charges etc. Zero concerns on this.

All my physical presence days are indeed while on PR status (so count for full days). They total to much more than the required 1095 days in the last 5 years. Any & all travel was just exploring the many amazing parts of Canada.

Maybe i am 'overthinking it' as mentioned by @dpenabill . But I just wanted to do my research / ask the question here, so i feel comfortable before creating my account and submitting my application for citizenship.

Also, i have decided to directly apply for citizenship, as it seems easier than the PR renewal process where i have to submit proof of physical presence myself vs. in the citzenship application where they verify it on their end.

 

[canuck78]

Thanks for the responses (@dpenabill & @armoured ) ! Just went through your replies and really appreciate the advice.

I have decided to go ahead with the application myself, now that i know i can hire a lawyer later if a complication/situation ever arises.

From what you guys shared, i gather it should be pretty straightforward since IRCC should be able to verify my presence themselves as per what @armoured said : "for the last several years at least IRCC has had / has access to decent entry-exit records"

As for why i made this post in the first place :

1. I'm just trying to do my research, go through the citizenship application package and cover all the bases, to make sure my citizenship application goes through smoothly.
2. The sole concern i have in my case/situation is/was : Being unemployed while in Canada as a PR and the effect it would have on my citizenship application (because i won't have T4/payslips and my taxes filed for the past 5 eligbility years would say zero income on the NOA), that's all.
3. No special circumstances like probation/criminal charges etc. Zero concerns on this.

All my physical presence days are indeed while on PR status (so count for full days). They total to much more than the required 1095 days in the last 5 years. Any & all travel was just exploring the many amazing parts of Canada.

Maybe i am 'overthinking it' as mentioned by @dpenabill . But I just wanted to do my research / ask the question here, so i feel comfortable before creating my account and submitting my application for citizenship.

Also, i have decided to directly apply for citizenship, as it seems easier than the PR renewal process where i have to submit proof of physical presence myself vs. in the citzenship application where they verify it on their end.

No family income in Canada or abroad for 5 years???

 

[sodapop123]

No family income in Canada or abroad for 5 years???

Correct. Appreciate your advice proceeding with the citizenship application, if any ? - Thanks !

 

[armoured]

Also, i have decided to directly apply for citizenship, as it seems easier than the PR renewal process where i have to submit proof of physical presence myself vs. in the citzenship application where they verify it on their end.

Entirely up to you. But having responded to your PR card thread: you are definitely overthinking it for that. The 'proof' you have to submit is just some evidence of having resided here (or put differently, 'proof' can just mean evidence). Two pieces, that's it. They can and almost certainly will access the entry records if they feel necessary.

A different question is if/why the structure of the physical presence parts of the PR card renewal and citizenship app are different. We could give a long-winded answer (my simple explanation is that the physical presence requirement under the citizenship act is different, it's an absolute requirement*, which is not exactly so for residency obligation) but easier to just say 'they've done it differently for years and make changes only conservatively.'

* Now someone will quibble with my use of absolute here, and I'll ignore them.

 

[sodapop123]

Entirely up to you. But having responded to your PR card thread: you are definitely overthinking it for that. The 'proof' you have to submit is just some evidence of having resided here (or put differently, 'proof' can just mean evidence). Two pieces, that's it. They can and almost certainly will access the entry records if they feel necessary.

A different question is if/why the structure of the physical presence parts of the PR card renewal and citizenship app are different. We could give a long-winded answer (my simple explanation is that the physical presence requirement under the citizenship act is different, it's an absolute requirement*, which is not exactly so for residency obligation) but easier to just say 'they've done it differently for years and make changes only conservatively.'

* Now someone will quibble with my use of absolute here, and I'll ignore them.

Agreed. Thanks !

Just checked approximate current processing time for PR card renewal & Citizenship on the CIC wesbite and it says :
1. PR card Renewal - 33 days
2. Citizenship grant - 11 months

So, I'm going to apply for Citizenship first and submit an application for to renew my PR card at the same time, as i am planning to travel early-mid year for a month or two.