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UNDECLARED CHILD, WHAT TO DO

Rob_TO

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ifeedly said:
5) The reason some of the immigrants encountered people who tried to mislead them is because they dealt with incompetent people who did not understand the system and law and these incompetent people believed that they knew everything.
And how about when those people misleading, are the lawyers you are talking about with all that schooling behind them?

Did you take my advice and actually search through posts on this forum to find the literally hundreds upon hundreds of cases where lawyers have given bad info and caused many hardships for people going through this process? Over the past few years on this site, the amount of these types of posts is mind boggling.

Again I'm not sure you comprehend what i've been saying since the beginning here. Not all lawyers are bad, and many can offer great help and services. Once you decide to challenge CIC on something, a lawyer is essential. I'm sure the ones hosting this forum are some of the good ones. However to simply offer the advice of "go see a lawyer" with nothing else, is not advice at all. Since there are many bad immigration lawyers out there, this person should know all they can about their own case before going to see one. So that means hearing what other posters have to say on the topic and what their reasons are, and what past precedents have been in identical cases to theirs. So when the OP does eventually go to a lawyer, he should be able to determine if the lawyer a) knows what they are talking about and b) is working in their best interests.

Suggesting every lawyer out there is fantastic and amazing and will always be of great help simply due to their schooling and professional degree, is a bit delusional. Knowing as much as you can about your situation and precedents before seeking professional help, is something everyone should be doing.
 

ifeedly

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ROB_TO: I get you but are you getting me?

For everybody else: Have a go at it:

Importance of representation and Importance of dealing with mistakes is covered in this. You make a mistake you go own it.
CANADIAN BAR ASSOCIATION 2013 NATIONAL IMMIGRATION LAW CONFERENCE : http://www.cba.org/CBA/cle/PDF/IMM13_paper_Swaisland.pdf


As far as case law is concerned:
have a go at this: DISCLAIMER I am not a lawyer but these are interesting cases and I actually learned a lot about misrepresentation from this:

Finally all of this would not have been possible if the lawyers did not exist


In cases of misrepresentation this has been used for removal orders: section 45: Immigration and Refugee Protection Act
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45. The Immigration Division, at the conclusion of an admissibility hearing, shall make one of the following decisions:

(a) recognize the right to enter Canada of a Canadian citizen within the meaning of the Citizenship Act, a person registered as an Indian under the Indian Act or a permanent resident;

(b) grant permanent resident status or temporary resident status to a foreign national if it is satisfied that the foreign national meets the requirements of this Act;

(c) authorize a permanent resident or a foreign national, with or without conditions, to enter Canada for further examination; or

(d) make the applicable removal order against a foreign national who has not been authorized to enter Canada, if it is not satisfied that the foreign national is not inadmissible, or against a foreign national who has been authorized to enter Canada or a permanent resident, if it is satisfied that the foreign national or the permanent resident is inadmissible.


Paragraph 21 of Canada (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration) v. Hernandez de Guzman 2005
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[21] This provision of the Regulations must be read together with all of the other provisions of the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act, S.C. 2001, c. 27 (the Act), in order to take into account the context of the Act and the objective of the Act. According to subsection 11(1) of the Act, the foreign national wishing to enter Canada must, before entering Canada, apply to an officer for a visa or for any other document required, which are then issued following an examination. Further, section 28 of the Regulations describes the manner in which an application must be made, including not only that it must be made in writing, but also that it must be made when seeking to enter Canada. Therefore, there is an application not only when the original application is made in writing by a foreign national prior to entering Canada, but also at the time they seek to enter Canada.


Paragraph 9 of Sleman v. Canada (Citizenship and Immigration), 2009
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[9] One’s intention, inadvertence, or motive for the failure to declare non-accompanying family members does not affect the interpretation or application of Section 117(9)(d) of the Regulations. That was made clear by the Federal Court of Appeal in Fuente[5] and Tauseef.[6] To be clear, it is trite that an Immigration officer is not obliged to enquire after the status of a foreign national upon landing. The onus is on the foreign national to declare his or her current status to the Immigration officer upon landing.



[10] Section 51 of the Regulations provides:
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51. A foreign national who holds a permanent resident visa and is seeking to become a permanent resident must, at the time of their examination,

(a) inform the officer if

(i) the foreign national has become a spouse or common-law partner or has ceased to be a spouse, common-law partner or conjugal partner after the visa was issued, or

(ii) material facts relevant to the issuance of the visa have changed since the visa was issued or were not divulged when it was issued; and

(b) establish that they and their family members, whether accompanying or not, meet the requirements of the Act and these Regulations.



Paragraph 25 of Geda v. Canada (Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness), 2008
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[25] The fact that when asked by the immigration officer at the port of entry both appellants willingly declared the fact of their marriages strongly suggests that they were both ignorant of the law and that they had no intention to withhold or mislead. Quite to the contrary, had their marriages been part of a large plot to obtain the entry of their husbands to Canada, the rational response to the question would have been to lie, thus avoiding the finding of inadmissibility. The appellants’ action in declaring their marital status and their overall credibility as witnesses persuades the panel that their conduct was innocent.



Paragraph 18 of Panford v Canada (Citizenship and Immigration), 2014
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[18] The onus of disclosure is on the applicant who seeks to enter Canada.[7] Justice Russell of the Federal Court in Bodine acknowledged “that a foreign national seeking to enter Canada has a “duty of candor” which requires disclosure of material facts.”[8] Justice Russel provides the following analysis on what has to be disclosed:


[41] Although the Act, or section 40 specifically, does not require spontaneous disclosure of all information or evidence, there may be an obligation to disclose information or to produce relevant evidence in certain circumstances. Section 16(1) of the Act provides that “[a] person who makes an application must answer truthfully all questions put to them for the purpose of the examination and must answer truthfully all questions put to them for the purpose of the examination and must produce a visa and all relevant evidence and documents that the officer reasonably requires.” In Baro v. Canada (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration), 2007 FC 1299 (CanLII), 2007 FC 1299 at para. 15, the Court recognized that a foreign national seeking to enter Canada has a “duty of candour” which requires disclosure of material facts. The Court went on to state at paragraphs 15-17:

15 …Even an innocent failure to provide material information can result in a finding of inadmissibility; for example, an applicant who fails to include all of her children in her application may be inadmissible: Bickin v. Canada (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration), [2000] F.C.J. No. 1495(F.C.T.D.) (QL). An exception arises where applicants can show that they honestly and reasonably believed that they were not withholding material information: Medel v. Canada (Minister of Employment and Immigration), reflex, [1990] 2 F.C. 345, [1990] F.C.J. No. 318 (F.C.A.) (QL).

[…]


17 Of course, applicants cannot be expected to anticipate the kinds of information that immigration officials might be interested in receiving. As the IAD noted here, "there is no onus on the person to disclose all information that might possibly be relevant". One must look at the surrounding circumstances to decide whether the applicant has failed to comply with s. 40(1)(a).


[42] It is clear that a duty of candour exists and that the surrounding circumstances are important for deciding what that duty entails in any particular instance. This case presents the question of the extent to which an applicant must disclose information when not expressly asked for that information by an examining officer. I do not find that section 40 of the Act requires that a person must spontaneously disclose any fact that could possibly be relevant. Instead, to determine whether the withholding of information constitutes a misrepresentation under the Act, it is necessary to consider the surrounding circumstances in each instance.[9]
 

Ponga

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ifeedly said:
[18] The onus of disclosure is on the applicant who seeks to enter Canada.[7] Justice Russell of the Federal Court in Bodine acknowledged “that a foreign national seeking to enter Canada has a “duty of candor” which requires disclosure of material facts.”[8] Justice Russel provides the following analysis on what has to be disclosed:


[41] Although the Act, or section 40 specifically, does not require spontaneous disclosure of all information or evidence, there may be an obligation to disclose information or to produce relevant evidence in certain circumstances. Section 16(1) of the Act provides that “[a] person who makes an application must answer truthfully all questions put to them for the purpose of the examination and must answer truthfully all questions put to them for the purpose of the examination and must produce a visa and all relevant evidence and documents that the officer reasonably requires.” In Baro v. Canada (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration), 2007 FC 1299 (CanLII), 2007 FC 1299 at para. 15, the Court recognized that a foreign national seeking to enter Canada has a “duty of candour” which requires disclosure of material facts. The Court went on to state at paragraphs 15-17:

15 …Even an innocent failure to provide material information can result in a finding of inadmissibility; for example, an applicant who fails to include all of her children in her application may be inadmissible: Bickin v. Canada (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration), [2000] F.C.J. No. 1495(F.C.T.D.) (QL). An exception arises where applicants can show that they honestly and reasonably believed that they were not withholding material information: Medel v. Canada (Minister of Employment and Immigration), reflex, [1990] 2 F.C. 345, [1990] F.C.J. No. 318 (F.C.A.) (QL).

That pretty much sums up what all of us non-lawyer, non-immigration consultants have told the OP.

Anyone that would take the word(s) of a total stranger [all of us], in a public forum no less, as being `gospel', for something as serious as this matter, should give their head a shake. The OP would be wise to have the couple speak with a very qualified lawyer, just in case we are all wrong about everything that we've said.
 
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SamHom

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Ponga said:
That pretty much sums up what all of us non-lawyer, non-immigration consultants have told the OP.

Anyone that would take the word(s) of a total stranger [all of us], in a public forum no less, as being `gospel', for something as serious as this matter, should give their head a shake. The OP would be wise to have the couple speak with a very qualified lawyer, just in case we are all wrong about everything that we've said.
I think this shows that what I said in this thread or possibly another, that exemptions must occur, is in fact the case. Something worth fighting for.
 

scylla

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SamHom said:
I think this shows that what I said in this thread or possibly another, that exemptions must occur, is in fact the case. Something worth fighting for.
As long as the OP is OK with the fact that "fighting for it" may result in CIC revoking his PR status for misrepresentation and banning him from Canada for 5 years.
 
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Ponga

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SamHom said:
I think this shows that what I said in this thread or possibly another, that exemptions must occur, is in fact the case. Something worth fighting for.
I don't see how listening to what a mother-in-law says, translates to `an innocent failure' to provide material information.


I wonder how the PR's mother feels now, knowing that she [may have] single handedly ruined her grandchild's life.
 
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SamHom

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Ponga said:
I don't see how listening to what a mother-in-law says, translates to `an innocent failure' to provide material information.


I wonder how the PR's mother feels now, knowing that she [may have] single handedly ruined her grandchild's life.
Well, I'm not saying it'll be easy, but there's definitely hope, right? Now we know there can be a way around this, if you can prove the above.

As someone said earlier in the thread, I think there is a risk that the mother did this on purpose. If that is the case, maybe that could help them even more? Maybe even get her to admit that was the case over emails, texts and what not.
 

Ponga

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SamHom said:
Well, I'm not saying it'll be easy, but there's definitely hope, right? Now we know there can be a way around this, if you can prove the above.

As someone said earlier in the thread, I think there is a risk that the mother did this on purpose. If that is the case, maybe that could help them even more? Maybe even get her to admit that was the case over emails, texts and what not.
But CIC will have little, if any, sympathy for a person that simply listened to a family member. It was his responsibility to know exactly what he was doing when he applied for and later landed as a PR. Blaming the mother will probably fall on deaf ears, but...it doesn't mean they shouldn't try, I guess.
 

Rob_TO

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ifeedly said:
ROB_TO: I get you but are you getting me?
No, you seriously don't. I have said numerous times what we are trying to do is educate the OP on his situation, to prepare him before he goes to see an immigration lawyer so he will have a better chance of identifying if that lawyer is a good one or one of the crappy ones. Understanding your own situation is paramount before consulting any professional, i.e. like seeing an accountant over a tax issue. Walking in blind is the wrong approach because there are many people out there with lots of schooling and professional degrees, who simply aren't good at what they do. This is reality.
I'm really not sure why you can't comprehend this.

In this specific case, any lawyer that gives false hope that if you use them for representation you will have a great shot at a successful app for the child and eventual appeal if that is rejected, is full of crap and OP should run from them. An honest/good lawyer will be upfront and tell the OP based on precedents their chances are slim to none to sponsor the child or win any appeal, it may take years in the court system, and that by bringing this up to higher courts his own PR is at risk for misrepresentation... but will proceed with the app and eventual appeal if they really want despite the slim chance at success and possible risks.

Importance of representation and Importance of dealing with mistakes is covered in this. You make a mistake you go own it.
CANADIAN BAR ASSOCIATION 2013 NATIONAL IMMIGRATION LAW CONFERENCE : http://www.cba.org/CBA/cle/PDF/IMM13_paper_Swaisland.pdf
That's great. And as there are hundreds of cases of precedent setting rulings for exactly this situation of not declaring a dependent, I assume you've found a few on record that show an appeal of this ruling was successful even though the applicants knew of the existence of the child at anytime before the PR landing. I eagerly await you to post these cases.
 

ifeedly

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Case is straight forward
Section A40
There is chance for appeal in managing the case not winning it. (application time is not only the date they sign its also the date they enter and BSO asks them if there are any changes; 19 is 1 Yr Plus age of majority and hence the trap)
Kids father is already willing to go back but at least he should go back doing damage control. That way future options are open for him and his family.
Whatever is done is done but a 19 yr old person should look towards future for making decisions.
he has nothing to lose but only to gain by going back after fixing the damage and hence he needs competent representation.

case references are always complicated as people tend to look for what they are trying to find instead of what is there.

:)
 

Rob_TO

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ifeedly said:
Case is straight forward
Section A40
There is chance for appeal in managing the case not winning it. (application time is not only the date they sign its also the date they enter and BSO asks them if there are any changes; 19 is 1 Yr Plus age of majority and hence the trap)
Kids father is already willing to go back but at least he should go back doing damage control. That way future options are open for him and his family.
Whatever is done is done but a 19 yr old person should look towards future for making decisions.
he has nothing to lose but only to gain by going back after fixing the damage and hence he needs competent representation.

case references are always complicated as people tend to look for what they are trying to find instead of what is there.

:)
Your post really makes no sense. Not sure you understand the CIC rules at all.

Case references are not complicated, they are very simple. Find a case where a spouse or dependent was not declared, and where the applicants were successful in appealing it. That's it. There are many such cases of non-declaration to search from.

And instead of pursuing this in court with a lawyer over what might be several years and time away from family only to most likely end up in rejection, OP may find their time is better served by renouncing their PR status as soon as possible and spending all this time back in home country trying to re-qualify for PR under one of the current economic streams. They can't even start this process until their PR is renounced or revoked though. This is a decision the OP would need to make.

You can respond or not I really don't care, but the OP should know all the details and different routes he can take here, and your advice is not very good IMO.
 

canadianwoman

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This case is similar to the OP's situation. A dependent immigrated with his parents. He had a child at the time, but the child was not declared. He later married the mother of this child. When he tried to sponsor the mother and child, his own misrepresentation at the time of immigrating was discovered. He was ordered removed.

However, while the appeal court judge agreed that the removal order was legal, he decided to ignore it because of humanitarian and compassionate concerns. The processing of the PR application of the wife and child was held up (that is, it was not abandoned) pending the outcome of the appeal. When the appeal court judge decided to allow the appeal on H & C grounds, this also meant that the processing of the wife and child's application could continue, thus leading to the reunion of the family in Canada.
Blando v Canada (209) http://canlii.ca/t/2d80h

This is the first case I have seen where an undeclared child was found to be sponsorable. The H & C grounds were significant: the father had been living and working in Canada for 18 years at that point, had never been on welfare, had been supporting his wife and child and other family members back home, and seemed to have integrated himself very well in his community.
 
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zardoz

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While superficially the cases are similar, there are a lot of nuances in the referred to case that make it more compelling. The appellant had no access to the child before immigrating and was well established in Canada long before the sponsorship attempt.

This is not the case with the OP, who is not irrevocably linked to residency in Canada and who had responsibility for declaring the child because there was no valid reason not to. Therefore, the hardship in having to return to join the mother and child would be less of a mitigation factor. Successful H&C appeals are rare and are usually only in cases where the balance is heavily in favour of the appellant. If this was a viable loophole, it would be much more widely used.

This is not to say that an appeal would fail but it is certainly not a guaranteed success either.