Renew PR card or not?
- Thread starter keys8014
- Start date
Renew in case you need to leave Canada while you wait for citizenship.
Really? On the instructions it says even with expired PR card, we can apply for citizenship.
But no one said about faster processing
Neither did the post you quoted say anything about faster )).
Anyway: of course you can apply with expired PR card. Just that there may be hiccoughs at certain points if the process expects one to have a PR card - like when they ask you to cut up the PR card at oath.
Or, for example, when they check residency requirements - if PR card is valid and/or has been recently renewed, there may have been recent residency checks or - less importantly - a bit more assumption that one has indeed been in Canada (enough to not have had a problem renewing). None of that means you must renew it to apply. Just that it definitely won't hurt.
I kind of disagree with that. Citizenship application is processed against the citizenship requirements. Having a valid PR is not a requirement - i would even say its irrelevant to the processing of a citizenship application.
Oh , i was sleepy when i wrote "faster processing" lol. It should've been "easier".
Regarding cutting the PR card, does having a valid or expired PR card matters?
Also for the residency requirements, im at 1500+ days mark, so this shouldn't be a problem.
But anyway, i still have 3 months before the PR card expires, hopefully i will get AOR and there shouldn't be any problems regarding PR card being expired
I think these are relatively minor aspects compared to the most important parts, esp actual day count.
Saying it may be 'easier' with a recently renewed card is not saying that it will be problematic without one.
Might it make sense to apply for a PR card renewal, for example, before applying for citizenship? Sure, it might. But ultimately probably not a big factor, and if a factor at all, probably not a large one. The primary reason to renew your PR card is in order to have a valid PR card, usually for travel.
Re: the card - I don't know for certain, I think in the end the statement that you don't currently have a valid one is a true one, so it will be dealt with.
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Caution: long read ahead.
In the way things actually work, practically, for both PR card and citizenship applications, it is not so much about what might make processing easier (be that easier for IRCC officials, or easier in the sense of no additional requests made of the applicant), or make it faster. It is much more about factors which could cause additional (non-routine) processing leading to a longer processing timeline. In a sense one might say something will make the process easier because it reduces the risk of things making it more complicated or difficult, and slower.
Generally, overall for both PR card applications and citizenship applications, there is NOT much (if anything) that will make processing the application easier or faster. In contrast, there are scores of things which can have a negative impact on how easily and quickly the application is processed.
Some factors can reduce the risk of something triggering a negative impact, like applying for citizenship with a good margin of presence over the minimum, but even in respect to this it is not so much that a good margin will facilitate easer/faster processing as it is about reducing the risk of IRCC officials having residency concerns.
Applications are essentially, one might say, on an assembly line, and will be completed in that order, reaching the end of the line in that order. But there are many things which can cause the application to be taken off the assembly line, ranging from very briefly to more extended non-routine processing, making the process longer and in some cases more complex (like RQ-related requests for additional residency information, or referrals to other agencies, like the CBSA NSSD, for investigation).
@scylla cited a key factor to consider in making this personal decision: expectations in regards to travel outside Canada and a prospective need to have a valid PR card to board a flight returning to Canada. Thus, for example, if the only international travel expected is to or through the U.S., returning to Canada using land transportation, this factor does not carry much weight.
Other factors may include an anticipated move to another province and what could be needed to obtain health care coverage or a drivers' license in the new province, taking into account whether a valid PR card will be needed. And there have been some indications that even within a province, even for just the renewal of health card or drivers' license, some provinces can require (or perhaps just in some circumstances will require) presentation of a valid PR card. Weight of this factor depends on personal circumstances and on the province(s) involved. Last I looked, for example, Ontario was still accepting expired PR cards (do not recall if this is for up to three or five years), and Ontario allowed me to renew both without presenting a valid PR card . . . indeed, I recently noticed, after the last time I renewed my OHIP card ,that OHIP is still showing me to be a Permanent Resident nearly a decade after I became a citizen (yeah, I overlooked this when previously renewing my OHIP, my admonitions to read carefully too often falls among personal failures to do what I preach).
At the risk of being boring, obsessively belaboring what is common sense for many, perhaps most . . .
REQUIREMENTS versus INFLUENTIAL FACTORS:
The Main Reason For Responding Here Is To Distinguish What Is Required Versus What Can Influence the Process.
Again, this is offered at the risk of obsessively belaboring what is common sense for many, perhaps most . . .
Requirements are prescribed by statute and regulation, with IRCC having some additional flexibility to impose administrative requirements.
Apart from the requirements, many factors can influence how it goes. In particular, apart from the requirements, whether the requirements for citizenship, or requirements for renewing a PR card, there are many, many factors which can influence how "easy" or fast an application might be processed. The scope of impact for any particular factor can and typically will vary considerably. No great prowess in game theory necessary, for example, to forecast a much higher probability of non-routine processing and potential delays for the PR who applies for a PR card during a week long visit in Canada and is relying on barely meeting the 730 day minimum threshold for complying with the Residency Obligation, in contrast to the PR who has been well settled in Canada for many years and who has been physically present in Canada for more than 1,000 days within the preceding five years (that is,a PR who spent more days in Canada than outside Canada). 730/five years meets the requirement. But 1000+/five years might very much make the process easier and faster, at least for some.
To get real weedy about this, but to be more precise, it is NOT so much that the latter is likely to make the process easier and faster, but that the former, cutting-it-close, increases the risk of questions or concerns resulting in additional inquires, non-routine processing, and potentially a significantly more complex process which delays the final decision. So a big margin makes it "easier" in the sense it reduces the risk of non-routine processing delays.
Leading to
With only occasional, not at all frequent exceptions, IRCC information generally, and particular instructions even more so, are about requirements, including required information to provide with an application. That is to say, other than general directions which can include examples, IRCC generally does not provide advisory information (one exception is its advice to wait to apply for citizenship with extra credit).
For example: In the PR context, in particular, nowhere (that I have heard of) does IRCC so much as suggest that those PRs who are well settled and living permanently in Canada will have an easier or faster path to renewing their PR card. Similarly, IRCC does not caution that those who relocate outside Canada very soon after applying for citizenship face an increased risk of non-routine processing. These are probably easily grasped common sense (although there has been a loud constituency in the forum adamantly denying that a move outside Canada can, let alone might, have an impact on processing a citizenship application; there is plenty of evidence to the contrary). Indeed, most of the things, the factors which could have an impact on how smoothly (easily, quickly) processing goes are probably common sense if not just plain obvious. Obvious example: the more one is cutting-it-close, in just about any respect, the bigger the risk of additional inquiry and non-routine processing.
"Easier" and "faster" are on the same page.
In the way things actually work, practically, for both PR card and citizenship applications, it is not so much about what might make processing easier (be that easier for IRCC officials, or easier in the sense of no additional requests made of the applicant), or make it faster. It is much more about factors which could cause additional (non-routine) processing leading to a longer processing timeline. In a sense one might say something will make the process easier because it reduces the risk of things making it more complicated or difficult, and slower.
Generally, overall for both PR card applications and citizenship applications, there is NOT much (if anything) that will make processing the application easier or faster. In contrast, there are scores of things which can have a negative impact on how easily and quickly the application is processed.
Some factors can reduce the risk of something triggering a negative impact, like applying for citizenship with a good margin of presence over the minimum, but even in respect to this it is not so much that a good margin will facilitate easer/faster processing as it is about reducing the risk of IRCC officials having residency concerns.
Applications are essentially, one might say, on an assembly line, and will be completed in that order, reaching the end of the line in that order. But there are many things which can cause the application to be taken off the assembly line, ranging from very briefly to more extended non-routine processing, making the process longer and in some cases more complex (like RQ-related requests for additional residency information, or referrals to other agencies, like the CBSA NSSD, for investigation).
Whether to renew or skip renewing a PR card is entirely a personal decision. It is NOT required, whether or not one is applying for citizenship.
@scylla cited a key factor to consider in making this personal decision: expectations in regards to travel outside Canada and a prospective need to have a valid PR card to board a flight returning to Canada. Thus, for example, if the only international travel expected is to or through the U.S., returning to Canada using land transportation, this factor does not carry much weight.
Other factors may include an anticipated move to another province and what could be needed to obtain health care coverage or a drivers' license in the new province, taking into account whether a valid PR card will be needed. And there have been some indications that even within a province, even for just the renewal of health card or drivers' license, some provinces can require (or perhaps just in some circumstances will require) presentation of a valid PR card. Weight of this factor depends on personal circumstances and on the province(s) involved. Last I looked, for example, Ontario was still accepting expired PR cards (do not recall if this is for up to three or five years), and Ontario allowed me to renew both without presenting a valid PR card . . . indeed, I recently noticed, after the last time I renewed my OHIP card ,that OHIP is still showing me to be a Permanent Resident nearly a decade after I became a citizen (yeah, I overlooked this when previously renewing my OHIP, my admonitions to read carefully too often falls among personal failures to do what I preach).
At the risk of being boring, obsessively belaboring what is common sense for many, perhaps most . . .
REQUIREMENTS versus INFLUENTIAL FACTORS:
The Main Reason For Responding Here Is To Distinguish What Is Required Versus What Can Influence the Process.
Again, this is offered at the risk of obsessively belaboring what is common sense for many, perhaps most . . .
Requirements are prescribed by statute and regulation, with IRCC having some additional flexibility to impose administrative requirements.
Example of administrative requirement: A frequently encountered example of this is the requirement to be IN Canada when making a PR card application, which is NOT based on a requirement prescribed by statute or regulation. IRCC has had this eligibility requirement for many years. The Federal Court had ruled this could not be enforced (IRCC could not deny issuing a PR card on the sole grounds the PR was not in Canada when making the application) precisely because it is not supported by statute or regulation. Earlier this year, under its authority to dictate what is required to make a "complete application" for a PR card, IRCC added a mandatory declaration of presence in Canada to the application form. Now, in order to even get the proper form for making a PR card application, the applicant must declare their presence in Canada. This enables enforcement of the IN-Canada eligibility requirement indirectly, requiring PR card applicants to declare their presence in Canada, which if not true would constitute misrepresentation, which not only is a legitimate ground for denying the application, any such misrepresentation has potential repercussions more serious than just being grounds to deny the application.
Apart from the requirements, many factors can influence how it goes. In particular, apart from the requirements, whether the requirements for citizenship, or requirements for renewing a PR card, there are many, many factors which can influence how "easy" or fast an application might be processed. The scope of impact for any particular factor can and typically will vary considerably. No great prowess in game theory necessary, for example, to forecast a much higher probability of non-routine processing and potential delays for the PR who applies for a PR card during a week long visit in Canada and is relying on barely meeting the 730 day minimum threshold for complying with the Residency Obligation, in contrast to the PR who has been well settled in Canada for many years and who has been physically present in Canada for more than 1,000 days within the preceding five years (that is,a PR who spent more days in Canada than outside Canada). 730/five years meets the requirement. But 1000+/five years might very much make the process easier and faster, at least for some.
To get real weedy about this, but to be more precise, it is NOT so much that the latter is likely to make the process easier and faster, but that the former, cutting-it-close, increases the risk of questions or concerns resulting in additional inquires, non-routine processing, and potentially a significantly more complex process which delays the final decision. So a big margin makes it "easier" in the sense it reduces the risk of non-routine processing delays.
Leading to
-- VERSUS --
and the further discussion about this.
With only occasional, not at all frequent exceptions, IRCC information generally, and particular instructions even more so, are about requirements, including required information to provide with an application. That is to say, other than general directions which can include examples, IRCC generally does not provide advisory information (one exception is its advice to wait to apply for citizenship with extra credit).
For example: In the PR context, in particular, nowhere (that I have heard of) does IRCC so much as suggest that those PRs who are well settled and living permanently in Canada will have an easier or faster path to renewing their PR card. Similarly, IRCC does not caution that those who relocate outside Canada very soon after applying for citizenship face an increased risk of non-routine processing. These are probably easily grasped common sense (although there has been a loud constituency in the forum adamantly denying that a move outside Canada can, let alone might, have an impact on processing a citizenship application; there is plenty of evidence to the contrary). Indeed, most of the things, the factors which could have an impact on how smoothly (easily, quickly) processing goes are probably common sense if not just plain obvious. Obvious example: the more one is cutting-it-close, in just about any respect, the bigger the risk of additional inquiry and non-routine processing.
AGAIN . . . this is offered at the risk of obsessively belaboring what is common sense for many, perhaps most . . . So, Again . . .
As alluded to by @armoured, the comment by @canuck78 is not responsive to the OP's query. The application for citizenship has already been made, and the OP did so while still in possession of a valid PR card.
The question at hand, the OP's query, is whether or not to renew an expiring PR card while an application for citizenship is pending.
Clearly this is NOT required. It is a personal choice depending on personal circumstances and needs.
Remaining question is whether doing so, or not doing so, will have some influence on how it goes.
In general, making multiple applications, submitting one while the other is already pending (like making a PR card after submitting a citizenship application), can result in one having influence on the other, but how so and to what extent will vary considerably. As previously noted, it is not so much whether making the second application would make processing the first application easier/faster, that will almost for sure NOT happen (see explanation with assembly line analogy in previous post), but there is some question as to whether one might have a negative influence on the other, or perhaps if one has triggered some non-routine inquiry or processing, whether the second might clarify something that reduces the negative impact, and thereby facilitate an easier or more prompt resolution of whatever triggered the non-routine inquiry or processing for the first.
Here too, just some common sense, but it is often useful to be reminded of common sense: one of the risks is providing inconsistent information, a discrepancy between what is reported in one application compared to the other (we all make mistakes). After all, there is an obvious risk (more like a probability) that the applications will be compared -- every time any action is taken on a citizenship application, for example, there must be a GCMS record check, and of course that will show a PR card application in process (once it is in process) and the citizenship agent can then easily access the details, and probably will. If there is a discrepancy in work history, address history, or travel history, of course that is going to get some attention. Minor, more or less obvious mistakes, should not cause a problem, but any substantial discrepancy would likely trigger non-routine inquiry and elevated scrutiny for both applications.
Overall, in regards to making a PR card application while a citizenship application is pending: Almost zero prospect it would make the citizenship application process easier or faster. Additionally, unless there is something in one that triggers concern in the other, like a significant discrepancy between the two, neither is likely to have a negative impact on the other. But, of course, if there is something in one that raises concerns, there is a significant risk that could have a negative impact on the other.
That said, for clarity . . .
I assume you meant to refer to having a valid PR card, not PR status. But the distinction is important.
A big, big part of why I go to such lengths above is to emphasize the difference between what is required, and generally strictly applied (or very strictly applied, like the physical presence requirement for citizenship), versus the very broad range of things that can influence how the process goes. What is "relevant" one might say, except that fails to encompass the extensive range of factors that are not directly relevant to a requirement, but are very much given significant attention and can have a real impact on processing. Work history, for example, is not directly relevant to any requirement for a grant of citizenship. But just a one month gap in the work history will result in IRCC returning an application as incomplete. A significant discrepancy between the work history reported in the citizenship application and what is shown in an individual's LinkedIn information can cause processing issues (and has been a key element in denying citizenship in some cases), let alone discrepancies between work history in the citizenship application versus PR card application.
All of which is to say that what is relevant when IRCC is processing a PR card or citizenship application goes well beyond what is directly relevant to particular requirements.
Nonetheless, all that said, assuming I understand the gist of what @emamabd commented, I agree, and in particular (absent something triggering cause for concern), I agree that whether or not a citizenship applicant applies for a new PR card while the citizenship application is pending is not likely to influence processing the citizenship application.
Potential Influence Apart From What is Particularly Required:
So . . . Setting Requirements Aside . . . factors influencing the process . . .
As much as most potentially influential factors are probably common-sense, some are not. Moreover, and this is where it can be a bit tricky, it can be particularly difficult to discern what sort of influence this or that factor might have. Especially since the influence this or that factor has can be much influenced, in turn, by other aspects of the individual's situation.
As noted at the outset of these observations, there is NOT much that will make processing the application easier or faster. In contrast, there are scores of things which can have a negative impact on how easily and quickly the application is processed. See assembly line analogy above.
But some things can offset or reduce the negative influence of a factor. Not every PR who applies for a PR card just barely meeting the RO encounters prolonged processing; it is apparent that if all the other circumstances solidly indicate the PR is currently well settled and living permanently in Canada, and there is no factor raising concerns about the accuracy and completeness of the PR's reported travel history (question 5.5 in application form), this can help avoid a lengthy referral to Secondary processing despite cutting-it-close by the numbers. This is just one example, an easy example, among scores and scores of ways this or that factor can have influence.
Anything That Might Impact Credibility:
Meeting the eligibility requirements is the key to how it goes in processing a citizenship, or PR card application. Of course. Basically the requirements must be met (with some leeway for H&C consideration and potential waiver of RO breach in PR card application processing). The next most important factor is following the instructions and providing the information IRCC requires to process the application.
But the next most influential factor is credibility. Anything and everything that could somehow influence the perception an IRCC official (a total-stranger-bureaucrat) has about the applicant's credibility can have real impact. What is directly relevant to whether the requirements are met will determine what decision is possible; how it goes in getting there can be, and very often will be, influenced by whether or not there is some reason to question, to doubt, the applicant. Just about everything in an individual's life can be relevant to this. (This could be something so simple as a pattern of holidays abroad being incongruous with the nature and type of employment the person has; no direct connection to any requirement, but something that leads a total stranger bureaucrat to scratch their head and wonder . . . and make inquiry.)
But otherwise, if the details about a person do not trigger credibility concerns, shrug. Just plain shrug. Usually, either way, whether or not the applicant for citizenship applies for a new PR card while the citizenship application is pending: shrug (unless something in one application conflicts with the other, or identifies a cause for concern).
-- VERSUS --
and the further discussion about this.
As alluded to by @armoured, the comment by @canuck78 is not responsive to the OP's query. The application for citizenship has already been made, and the OP did so while still in possession of a valid PR card.
The question at hand, the OP's query, is whether or not to renew an expiring PR card while an application for citizenship is pending.
Clearly this is NOT required. It is a personal choice depending on personal circumstances and needs.
Remaining question is whether doing so, or not doing so, will have some influence on how it goes.
In general, making multiple applications, submitting one while the other is already pending (like making a PR card after submitting a citizenship application), can result in one having influence on the other, but how so and to what extent will vary considerably. As previously noted, it is not so much whether making the second application would make processing the first application easier/faster, that will almost for sure NOT happen (see explanation with assembly line analogy in previous post), but there is some question as to whether one might have a negative influence on the other, or perhaps if one has triggered some non-routine inquiry or processing, whether the second might clarify something that reduces the negative impact, and thereby facilitate an easier or more prompt resolution of whatever triggered the non-routine inquiry or processing for the first.
Here too, just some common sense, but it is often useful to be reminded of common sense: one of the risks is providing inconsistent information, a discrepancy between what is reported in one application compared to the other (we all make mistakes). After all, there is an obvious risk (more like a probability) that the applications will be compared -- every time any action is taken on a citizenship application, for example, there must be a GCMS record check, and of course that will show a PR card application in process (once it is in process) and the citizenship agent can then easily access the details, and probably will. If there is a discrepancy in work history, address history, or travel history, of course that is going to get some attention. Minor, more or less obvious mistakes, should not cause a problem, but any substantial discrepancy would likely trigger non-routine inquiry and elevated scrutiny for both applications.
Overall, in regards to making a PR card application while a citizenship application is pending: Almost zero prospect it would make the citizenship application process easier or faster. Additionally, unless there is something in one that triggers concern in the other, like a significant discrepancy between the two, neither is likely to have a negative impact on the other. But, of course, if there is something in one that raises concerns, there is a significant risk that could have a negative impact on the other.
That said, for clarity . . .
Actually, having "valid PR" is a requirement for citizenship, right up to when the oath is taken. Valid PR status that is.
I assume you meant to refer to having a valid PR card, not PR status. But the distinction is important.
A big, big part of why I go to such lengths above is to emphasize the difference between what is required, and generally strictly applied (or very strictly applied, like the physical presence requirement for citizenship), versus the very broad range of things that can influence how the process goes. What is "relevant" one might say, except that fails to encompass the extensive range of factors that are not directly relevant to a requirement, but are very much given significant attention and can have a real impact on processing. Work history, for example, is not directly relevant to any requirement for a grant of citizenship. But just a one month gap in the work history will result in IRCC returning an application as incomplete. A significant discrepancy between the work history reported in the citizenship application and what is shown in an individual's LinkedIn information can cause processing issues (and has been a key element in denying citizenship in some cases), let alone discrepancies between work history in the citizenship application versus PR card application.
All of which is to say that what is relevant when IRCC is processing a PR card or citizenship application goes well beyond what is directly relevant to particular requirements.
Nonetheless, all that said, assuming I understand the gist of what @emamabd commented, I agree, and in particular (absent something triggering cause for concern), I agree that whether or not a citizenship applicant applies for a new PR card while the citizenship application is pending is not likely to influence processing the citizenship application.
Potential Influence Apart From What is Particularly Required:
So . . . Setting Requirements Aside . . . factors influencing the process . . .
As much as most potentially influential factors are probably common-sense, some are not. Moreover, and this is where it can be a bit tricky, it can be particularly difficult to discern what sort of influence this or that factor might have. Especially since the influence this or that factor has can be much influenced, in turn, by other aspects of the individual's situation.
As noted at the outset of these observations, there is NOT much that will make processing the application easier or faster. In contrast, there are scores of things which can have a negative impact on how easily and quickly the application is processed. See assembly line analogy above.
But some things can offset or reduce the negative influence of a factor. Not every PR who applies for a PR card just barely meeting the RO encounters prolonged processing; it is apparent that if all the other circumstances solidly indicate the PR is currently well settled and living permanently in Canada, and there is no factor raising concerns about the accuracy and completeness of the PR's reported travel history (question 5.5 in application form), this can help avoid a lengthy referral to Secondary processing despite cutting-it-close by the numbers. This is just one example, an easy example, among scores and scores of ways this or that factor can have influence.
Anything That Might Impact Credibility:
Meeting the eligibility requirements is the key to how it goes in processing a citizenship, or PR card application. Of course. Basically the requirements must be met (with some leeway for H&C consideration and potential waiver of RO breach in PR card application processing). The next most important factor is following the instructions and providing the information IRCC requires to process the application.
But the next most influential factor is credibility. Anything and everything that could somehow influence the perception an IRCC official (a total-stranger-bureaucrat) has about the applicant's credibility can have real impact. What is directly relevant to whether the requirements are met will determine what decision is possible; how it goes in getting there can be, and very often will be, influenced by whether or not there is some reason to question, to doubt, the applicant. Just about everything in an individual's life can be relevant to this. (This could be something so simple as a pattern of holidays abroad being incongruous with the nature and type of employment the person has; no direct connection to any requirement, but something that leads a total stranger bureaucrat to scratch their head and wonder . . . and make inquiry.)
But otherwise, if the details about a person do not trigger credibility concerns, shrug. Just plain shrug. Usually, either way, whether or not the applicant for citizenship applies for a new PR card while the citizenship application is pending: shrug (unless something in one application conflicts with the other, or identifies a cause for concern).
I largely agree with your points but would nonetheless make the point that it is STILL very much a good idea to have a valid PR card, and hence a good idea to renew, EVEN IF you think you won't need it.
Because ... there are still things that come up. Unexpected need to travel. Job offer where someone (incl government) wants to see the PR card. Moves between provinces (as you point out). Obscure requirements to present it for some reason or another.
Some of those reasons might be farfetched and even wrong (in the sense that the other party should not require a PR card). But it still happens and is a lot easier to handle with the card than without.
Yes, it's a bit tedious applying, but no more than most other bureaucratic tasks, and it's not free, and etc. But still: I'd generally recommend it for most (if in / while in compliance, etc).
I recently had to deal with this for a family member and OHIP was 'requiring' me to come to one of their main offices (not even the usual service ontario locations) with the original to record that they are now a citizen. (I called and the call centre insisted this is not something that can be done online or by post or any other way except in person).
Ummm, no. That's stupid and a waste of time. I sent a copy of proof of citizenship by mail with a note. We'll see if they record that as they should, but I am not taking an extra two-three-four hours of time out of real life to do that. Perhaps some day in future we'll need to do so, but I'm not going to do it because they can't handle mail.
As I may have muddied the waters with this comment: to be clear, I don't think the citizenship app is much of a reason, and if there's any related impact, I think it's likely small.