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Refugee homecountry visits

beko9812

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dpenabill said:
Additionally, a key factor may (again, a lot about how the law works is still not settled) be whether the OP was using a Travel Document issued by Canada or had obtained a passport from the home country.

The issue, after all, is whether the "person has voluntarily reavailed themselves of the protection of their country of nationality." Brief visits may not rise to the level of having reavailed oneself of the country's protection if one is not using a passport from that country.

But still, this is a situation calling for the advice of a lawyer.
You man answered almost all my questions. It's really very clear to me now.

Just one more question you said here that Brief visits may not rise to the level of having reavailed oneself of the country's protection if one is not using a passport from that country.

I am not sure if I understood this point correct. How come tha person visit his home country with a passport not from that country?, he can not visit it with the travel document for sure and he do not have any other passport to travel with
 

dpenabill

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Mostly: see a lawyer.

beko9812 said:
You man answered almost all my questions. It's really very clear to me now.
Not sure how I answered your questions leading to things being really clear unless you mean you now realize you should go to an immigration lawyer.

It certainly is not clear to me. The more I have seen so-called "re-availment" cases, the less it appears there is a clear standard or set of criteria . . . any visit home creates a risk, but not every visit home constitutes reavailing oneself of the country's protection.

The issue which is largely not clear to me is what factors are relevant versus what factors are not relevant, what determines if or when a person has "voluntary reavailed [himself] of the protection of [his] country of nationality."

And the application of the termination of refugee status to also constitute definitive termination of PR status is, again, quite new and rife with unsettled questions.

As for what constitutes reavailing oneself with the protections of the home country, in the more general sense this issue has been around for a long time. I am NOT familiar with the UNHCR Handbook, which appears to play a big role in how the Refugee Protection Board approaches these issues. Immigration lawyers handling refugee cases (and there are many) are almost certainly familiar with the UNHCR Handbook.

This is not merely an issue in Canada. It appears to be a common issue in many countries. Immigration lawyers handling refugee cases should be familiar enough with this issue to at least offer real advice about your situation.

No one here can or should offer advice. We can make observations, like just visiting your home country in itself risks PR status. But these are mere observations based on generalities. These cases are very individual specific . . . and again, the law is far from settled.


For example, PMM has linked four cases. One case was in favour of the refugee (both by the Board and the Federal Court), but a question was certified. Two of the three cases that went against the refugee also had questions certified. That's a lot of unanswered questions and, frankly, these were not really tough cases factually.

In contrast, the case which went against the PR with no question certified, for example, involved a person who was a citizen of China and spending a great deal of his time in China (at times he "actually resided primarily in China"), was actually carrying on a business in China, and it appears questions arose about whether he was spending so much time in China as to not even be (potentially) in compliance with the PR Residency Obligation (outcome was favourable in that he was issued a PR Travel Document at the time).

Moreover, that individual also has a criminal record and alleged, in his appeal, that the real motive for the Minister to pursue the application was to remove him from Canada because of his criminal record. Gotta say, that's not an ideal position to be arguing from.



beko9812 said:
Just one more question you said here that Brief visits may not rise to the level of having reavailed oneself of the country's protection if one is not using a passport from that country.

I am not sure if I understood this point correct. How come tha person visit his home country with a passport not from that country?, he can not visit it with the travel document for sure and he do not have any other passport to travel with
My observation was about the importance of having acquired a passport from one's home country. I do not know your circumstances. I know enough about this issue to know, however, that whether or not the refugee has acquired a new or renewed passport from his home country is a key factor. Thus, the refugee who travels abroad using the Canadian Travel Document (for refugees) does not incur the same risks . . . whether or not a particular individual can travel to his home country using the Canadian Travel Document is up to that particular country, its laws. Canada has no say in who another country allows to enter it or what Travel Documents are necessary to enter it.

That is, who can travel to this or that country depends mostly on the laws of the country being visited. The Canadian Travel Document issued to those with refugee status in Canada can be used to travel to many countries in the world. But which ones in particular is not a matter of Canadian law, but the law of each country itself. I do not know which countries in the world allow travelers to come into the country using a Canadian Travelers Document.



Note: The combination of acquiring a passport from one's home country and using that passport to visit anywhere appears to be almost conclusive, but of course to use it to travel to one's home country is even stronger evidence that the individual has availed himself of the protections of his home country.

Without being familiar with the UNHCR Handbook, it appears that the act of acquiring a passport from one's home country alone creates a presumption that the person "intends to re-avail himself or herself of the protection of the issuing state." (According to Justice O'Reilly's account -- which I must say is at least somewhat suspect given some other observations which make no sense.)

Remember, in the Najeeb Bashir case, the question certified was whether the mere acquisition of a passport intending to use it for travel to any country constitutes "irrefutable proof that the refugee had the intention of reavailing himself of the protection of his country of nationality."



Justice O'Reilly's decision in the Peter Sum Li case.

This case is actually very informative. It quotes the UNHCR Handbook. It offers some discussion about factors relevant to what shows a person has reavailed himself of the home country's protection.

But the discussion about whether this case involves the retroactive application of a new law is, to me, confusing if not baffling. And I find Justice O'Reilly's conclusions rather unpersuasive.

But that is a side issue not related to the questions posed here.



Going Back to What I Previously Said Was the More Practical Question For the OP: What triggers the Minister of Public Safety or CIC to Seek Termination of Status?

This is what I would be most interested in before applying for anything.

There is an undercurrent in the Peter Sum Li case hinting, if not outright suggesting, that the Ministers are selective in deciding who to target for termination of protected status.

As indicated in the Bashir case, the application for PR status triggered the inquiry leading to the application. In a case I cannot recall the name of, it was the application for citizenship which triggered it. In the Peter Sum Li case, it was the combination of a Residency Determination in conjunction with a PR Travel Document proceeding plus serious criminal charges which triggered the application (Justice O'Reilly explicitly states "it appears likely that Mr Li’s file came to the Minister’s attention based on Mr Li’s criminal offences . . . ").

In the Balouch case it appears that an examination at the POE upon a return from the refugee's home country, using a passport from her home country, may have been what triggered the Minister to proceed with the application.

My sense is that there are perhaps scores and scores of Canadian PRs who were initially refugees who, for one reason or another, could be subject to cessation of refugee status, and thereby lose PR status . . . a far greater number than the number who the respective Ministers are in fact targeting to have their status terminated. That is, my sense is that anyone in this situation probably wants to consider what is likely to trigger an inquiry which in turn would lead to the Minister taking action.

Thus, until consulting with a lawyer, no more travel abroad (and especially so with a passport issued by the home country), no applying for a home country passport or renewal, no applying for PR status or Canadian citizenship, no applying to sponsor a family member. See a lawyer. See a lawyer.



Note: the re-availment issue can arise in the context of determining whether an individual is even a refugee entitled to protection in the first place. For example, the issue is explicitly addressed in the Kaissi case, which just muddies things more, and it was this background (but from other cases for which I do not recall the names) which induced my observation that mere brief visits to one's home country do not necessarily show re-availment of that country's protections.

Again, this is complex stuff. There are many factors. Relative to PRs at risk, the law is new and not settled. Despite Justice O'Reilly's rather casual dismissal of the retroactive force of the changes implemented in 2012, this is an issue I would expect to see arise again.

See a lawyer. See a lawyer.
 

beko9812

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Thank you. I will see a laywer. Can you give a name of a good one?.

Is this the real names of these people Peter, Najeeb, Kaissi... etc... Is not this a breech of their privacy by publishing their names on publically available aebsites? Sounds weired to me
 

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No, it's not a breach of their privacy because the cases are publicly available on the Federal Court website or CanLII database.

Here's a case that goes into some detail about "reavailment" specifically what the UNHCR Handbook says about it: http://decisions.fct-cf.gc.ca/fc-cf/decisions/en/item/55326/index.do?r=AAAAAQALcmVhdmFpbG1lbnQB

Also look at the "Chandrakumar" case

Here's a link to the UNHCR handbook I found from another case: http://www.unhcr.org/3d58e13b4.html (don't know if it's the most current version, but you can verify online).

beko9812 said:
Thank you. I will see a laywer. Can you give a name of a good one?.

Is this the real names of these people Peter, Najeeb, Kaissi... etc... Is not this a breech of their privacy by publishing their names on publically available aebsites? Sounds weired to me
 

dpenabill

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beko9812 said:
Thank you. I will see a laywer. Can you give a name of a good one?.

Is this the real names of these people Peter, Najeeb, Kaissi... etc... Is not this a breech of their privacy by publishing their names on publically available aebsites? Sounds weired to me
I do not personally know any of the many Canadian lawyers who engage in refugee law.

In most of the cases linked you will see the refugee's lawyers listed, along with at least the city where they are located.

Additionally there are community based organizations which offer help to immigrants and refugees, and I think many of these will be able to make a referral to lawyers handling refugee cases (or at least there are likely to be individuals there who will be willing to share the name of lawyers known to help with these kinds of cases).

As for the names . . . yeah, technically there is NO privacy issue because the cases are in the public domain, the names already publicly disseminated in officially published Federal Court decisions . . . but there have been occasions, including in posts by me, in which the name and circumstances of a forum participant has been revealed. And I understand how this can be, at the least, uncomfortable for some. On occasion I will substitute a descriptive appellation rather than the formal name, which works fairly well for particularly distinctive cases. But of course the link still takes any reader to the published decision itself where the name is revealed. And quite often the facts are peculiar enough there is no need to name the individual, those much familiar with him or her can readily identify the person just based on the facts. But overall it is readily accessible public information, so anyone who wants to can easily go find this information.
 

eileenf

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beko9812 said:
Thank you. I will see a laywer. Can you give a name of a good one?.
Top notch advice and overview from Dpenabill.

Google "settlement agency" and your city. They can refer you to a refugee lawyer.
If you are in Ontario I know that there a number of good and dedicated refugee lawyers who work in the Neighbourhood Legal Clinics.

Good luck.

Also, if it's not clear by now, do not renew any passports (other than a refugee travel document), contact the embassy of the country you sought refuge from or travel (even briefly) to the country you sought refuge from as you go forward. If you feel you have to do one of these things DO NOT do it until after you have consulted with a reputable refugee lawyer and understand the huge risks as they may relate to the particularities of your situation.
 

beko9812

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dpenabill said:
Upfront: these are complicated issues, many aspects of the law are relatively new and not yet fully interpreted by the Courts. In fact, in both the cases linked above by PMM, the Justices certified questions for further review.

IRPA Section 108 termination of refugee status has only applied to Permanent Residents since the 2012 amendment to IRPA Section 46, which added subsection 46(1)(c.1) pursuant to which a final determination that refugee status has ceased (per section 108) terminates PR status.

It is unclear to what extent the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness is pursuing cases against Permanent Residents who have made brief trips to the country from which they initially sought protection. More than a few, yes, but how many are targeted, who, and why (beyond just the technicalities of who the Minister can take such action against) is not at all clear.

I suggest consulting with an immigration lawyer SOONER rather than later.

Again, these are complicated issues. The law is far from settled. There is no automatic termination of refugee status arising from a visit to one's home country, but rather the Public Safety Minister (could also be the Minister of CIC) needs to take affirmative action to bring an application and also bears the burden of proof.

On the other hand, it appears that it is not likely there are H&C grounds excusing actions rising to the level of having "reavailed" oneself "of the protection of their country of nationality." (H&C grounds could still be raised if a Removal Order or Departure Order is sought, once status is lost, but that is a separate matter.)

But it warrants emphasizing again that this is new law, with lots of wrinkles, with a lot of questions of interpretation and application yet to be sorted out by the Refugee Protection Board and the Federal Courts.

As the two cases referenced by PMM reflect: very different outcomes depending on the particular circumstances and facts in the case.

Which leads to the observation that there was NO Removal Order (as yet anyway) in at least one of these cases.


The other case linked by PMM above is the opposite, and perhaps closer to the OP's situation.


In any event, for the OP the more practical question may be what sort of things are likely to trigger the Ministers (either of them) to initiate an application to terminate protected status.

I suspect that it is similar to the situation for those who are in breach of the PR Residency Obligation: it is when they are being interviewed at a POE or upon inquiry related to an application made by the PR (for PR card or citizenship or to sponsor a family member), that are the most common triggers.

Mostly, this is something I would go see a competent immigration lawyer about.
You said here On the other hand, it appears that it is not likely there are H&C grounds excusing actions rising to the level of having "reavailed" oneself "of the protection of their country of nationality." (H&C grounds could still be raised if a Removal Order or Departure Order is sought, once status is lost, but that is a separate matter.)

To confirm my understanding here myquestion is: if court refused the case and considered that refugee re-availed himself to his home country are there possibility for H&C or no before removing from Canada in my case I own a house and I have 2 kids in School
 

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beko9812 said:
You said here On the other hand, it appears that it is not likely there are H&C grounds excusing actions rising to the level of having "reavailed" oneself "of the protection of their country of nationality." (H&C grounds could still be raised if a Removal Order or Departure Order is sought, once status is lost, but that is a separate matter.)

To confirm my understanding here myquestion is: if court refused the case and considered that refugee re-availed himself to his home country are there possibility for H&C or no before removing from Canada in my case I own a house and I have 2 kids in School
Owning a house or having children in Canada MAY give you consideration but it doesn't give you any special privileges. There has been cases of refugees losing their PR status and being deported despite having children and being "settled" in Canada for a long while.

That is like saying I have a child born in Canada thus I should get special privileges or fast track to Canadian citizenship. No such thing.

You violated the refugee rules in being a refugee PR by returning to your home country, not once but four times already.
 

eileenf

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Beko, you need to speak to a lawyer. You need good answers, not anonymous, free advice and/or judgements from strangers on the internet. Talk to a settlement worker first and they can point you in the right direction and tell you more about the risks and process of any legal implications.

Ownership of property does not give someone more rights to permanent residence in Canada.

Regarding safeguards and appeals before any deportation proceedings: Yes, they exist. There is a Pre-removal Risk Assessment, and there are bans on removing people to certain countries (Called the Moratoria countries). One can also appeal for H&C before any removal, but there is no guarantee that the appeal will be heard before removal and once someone is out of Canada, their chances of a positive ruling go way down.

The Moratoria countries are: Afghanistan, the Democratic Republic of Congo, Iraq. People from these countries can lose their PR status here but not be deported for the time being.

Your situation cries out for good legal advice though. The only way you can get that is by talking to a good refugee lawyer.

No one on here can give you the quality of advice that you need. No one on here can tell you how a judge would rule on your case. A lawyer can't guarantee how a judge will rule either, but they can give you a better sense of the probabilities.
 

on-hold

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beko9812 said:
You said here On the other hand, it appears that it is not likely there are H&C grounds excusing actions rising to the level of having "reavailed" oneself "of the protection of their country of nationality." (H&C grounds could still be raised if a Removal Order or Departure Order is sought, once status is lost, but that is a separate matter.)

To confirm my understanding here myquestion is: if court refused the case and considered that refugee re-availed himself to his home country are there possibility for H&C or no before removing from Canada in my case I own a house and I have 2 kids in School
I understand how upsetting this discussion is to you -- status uncertainty or danger is one of the worst things in the world to live with. However, at this point, you need something apart from this forum: a lawyer. All the words that Dpenabill chooses, such as 'appears', mean that his advice, though detailed and precise, is not professional, and thus not what you need. He's given you an excellent summary of some of the case law that applies to your area, but now you need more than that. You can't live in Canada with total uncertainty about your future.

If I can make a suggestion, the best use of this discussion for you is to prepare for choosing a lawyer -- you want to get a good one, with specialized knowledge of your particular situation, and hopefully a history of success in the area as well. Read up about the four cases, consider how they apply to your situation, and then when you meet with a lawyer, ask them questions that specifically relate yourself to these. At the very least, it will give you an idea of how conversant they are with the area, and how they would treat your problem.
 

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eileenf said:
Beko, you need to speak to a lawyer. You need good answers, not anonymous, free advice and/or judgements from strangers on the internet. Talk to a settlement worker first and they can point you in the right direction and tell you more about the risks and process of any legal implications.

Ownership of property does not give someone more rights to permanent residence in Canada.

Regarding safeguards and appeals before any deportation proceedings: Yes, they exist. There is a Pre-removal Risk Assessment, and there are bans on removing people to certain countries (Called the Moratoria countries). One can also appeal for H&C before any removal, but there is no guarantee that the appeal will be heard before removal and once someone is out of Canada, their chances of a positive ruling go way down.

The Moratoria countries are: Afghanistan, the Democratic Republic of Congo, Haiti, Iraq, Zimbabwe. People from these countries can lose their PR status here but not be deported. This does not mean that they have the right to stay here. They could be deported whenever the government changes its mind.

Your situation cries out for good legal advice though. The only way you can get that is by talking to a good refugee lawyer.

No one on here can give you the quality of advice that you need. No one on here can tell you how a judge would rule on your case.
1. Haiti and Zimbabwe are no longer on the list http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/manuals/bulletins/2015/ob600.asp
 

eileenf

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PMM said:
1. Haiti and Zimbabwe are no longer on the list http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/manuals/bulletins/2015/ob600.asp
Thanks! Corrected above.
 
Apr 23, 2015
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beko9812 said:
Hi,
I am a pr based on refugee status and went 4 times to my homecountry to see my sick dad. I am genuine refugee on a religious basis (i am christian from a country in middle east) which really got dangerous for religois minorities. I know that i may face problems when renew pr card or apply for citizenship. Any news about people who sucesseded to convince them at time of pr renew or citizenship that they visited their home country for humanity reasons and they took that risk just to see sick family member like in my case?. Thanks
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Actually, I knew a guy who won the Protected Person status and after a while he flew back to the country he claimed to be dangerous for him.

All I know is he flew there for 2 weeks only, one time, and when he got back CBSA gave him shit for flying back. He claimed his mom had health issues ( I dont know how true that is).

But interesting fact is that they let him in and didnt do anything about it.

I am not sure if he's gonna be in trouble later when he decides to apply for citizenship or extend his residency.

Thats about all I could say
 

screech339

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whitneywhiteman said:
Actually, I knew a guy who won the Protected Person status and after a while he flew back to the country he claimed to be dangerous for him.

All I know is he flew there for 2 weeks only, one time, and when he got back CBSA gave him *censored word* for flying back. He claimed his mom had health issues ( I dont know how true that is).

But interesting fact is that they let him in and didnt do anything about it.

I am not sure if he's gonna be in trouble later when he decides to apply for citizenship or extend his residency.

Thats about all I could say
CBSA has every right to scrutinize the Protected Person PR for going back to his home country that he is "fleeing" from. However CBSA cannot arbitrarily revoke his PR status on the spot. CIC has that authority to strip PR of PR status. So CBSA has no choice but begrudgingly let the refugee PR back in Canada. However CBSA can and probably reported this to CIC so that CIC will have a record of this. CIC can then decide what's the next step will be.
 
Apr 23, 2015
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screech339 said:
CBSA has every right to scrutinize the Protected Person PR for going back to his home country that he is "fleeing" from. However CBSA cannot arbitrarily revoke his PR status on the spot. CIC has that authority to strip PR of PR status. So CBSA has no choice but begrudgingly let the refugee PR back in Canada. However CBSA can and probably reported this to CIC so that CIC will have a record of this. CIC can then decide what's the next step will be.
Interesting to know. thnx for the info.

I dont know what happened to that guy after that, I stopped talking to him, he was kind of a d...