+1(514) 937-9445 or Toll-free (Canada & US) +1 (888) 947-9445

PRTD Approval - Accompanying a Canadian citizen requirement

Em W

Star Member
Feb 4, 2020
109
75
a PR holder is married to a Canadian citizen but they both live outside Canada.

I know that the PR holder can renew the PR card or apply for a PRTD without meeting the Residency Obligation if the PR holder accompanies a Canadian citizen.

The question is, does the Canadian citizen have to work and support the PR holder? Or is it enough if the citizen only lives with their PR spouse while providing proof that the PR holder lived with the citizen (lease agreement, bills, etc)?

Thanks, everyone.
 

scylla

VIP Member
Jun 8, 2010
93,420
20,759
Toronto
Category........
Visa Office......
Buffalo
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
28-05-2010
AOR Received.
19-08-2010
File Transfer...
28-06-2010
Passport Req..
01-10-2010
VISA ISSUED...
05-10-2010
LANDED..........
05-10-2010
a PR holder is married to a Canadian citizen but they both live outside Canada.

I know that the PR holder can renew the PR card or apply for a PRTD without meeting the Residency Obligation if the PR holder accompanies a Canadian citizen.

The question is, does the Canadian citizen have to work and support the PR holder? Or is it enough if the citizen only lives with their PR spouse while providing proof that the PR holder lived with the citizen (lease agreement, bills, etc)?

Thanks, everyone.
To make sure you can count the time outside of Canada towards the residency obligation, you want to be able to apply the "who followed whom rule". This means that the primary reason you are outside of Canada should be due to the citizen's obligations (job) and the PR should have followed the citizen outside of Canada. If the primary reason for living outside of Canada is due to the permanent resident's employment then this doesn't technically fit the rule and you shouldn't assume IRCC will let you count it.
 

Tubsmagee

Hero Member
Jul 2, 2016
437
131
a PR holder is married to a Canadian citizen but they both live outside Canada.

I know that the PR holder can renew the PR card or apply for a PRTD without meeting the Residency Obligation if the PR holder accompanies a Canadian citizen.

The question is, does the Canadian citizen have to work and support the PR holder? Or is it enough if the citizen only lives with their PR spouse while providing proof that the PR holder lived with the citizen (lease agreement, bills, etc)?

Thanks, everyone.
You may benefit from reading through this thread, which shows that the issue is not definitive.

https://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/threads/who-accompanied-whom-can-matter-for-prs-living-with-citizen-spouse-abroad-update.579860/
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,307
3,068
a PR holder is married to a Canadian citizen but they both live outside Canada.

I know that the PR holder can renew the PR card or apply for a PRTD without meeting the Residency Obligation if the PR holder accompanies a Canadian citizen.

The question is, does the Canadian citizen have to work and support the PR holder? Or is it enough if the citizen only lives with their PR spouse while providing proof that the PR holder lived with the citizen (lease agreement, bills, etc)?

Thanks, everyone.
Generally, to qualify for the accompanying-a-Canadian-citizen-spouse-abroad credit, a PR living abroad with a Canadian citizen spouse only needs to document:
-- the marital relationship (proof of marriage or common-law relationship)​
-- the spouse's Canadian citizenship​
-- cohabitation (living together)​

However, in a FEW situations who-accompanied-whom can be probed and considered. For an an in-depth discussion of this issue see topic also referenced by @Tubsmagee titled "Who-accompanied-whom can matter for PRs living with citizen spouse abroad: UPDATE" here: https://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/threads/who-accompanied-whom-can-matter-for-prs-living-with-citizen-spouse-abroad-update.579860/

It can be complicated, especially when the situation itself is more complicated, but overall if the PR was SETTLED and living IN Canada with the citizen-spouse for a substantial period of time BEFORE the couple moved abroad together, and they mostly live together while abroad, why they moved abroad will NOT be asked and will NOT matter.

If that is your scenario (living together IN Canada for some time BEFORE moving abroad together, and basically living together for the five years relevant in calculating RO compliance), there is no reason to worry about qualifying for the accompanying-a-Canadian-citizen-spouse-abroad credit (so I diverge some from the observations by @scylla). In this scenario, you can SKIP the rest of this (and not bother to spend much time reading the other topic).

NOTE: A PR must be physically located IN Canada to make a PR card application, and affirm this in the PR card application. This is new as of a few weeks ago. (IRCC previously said to be eligible the PR must be IN Canada, but there was nothing to enforce that; now, as of the new forms, a PR must affirm they are IN Canada in order to make the PR card application.) While PRs living abroad can work around this by applying during a visit to Canada, what IRCC clearly prefers, and what probably is the better practice, is to NOT apply for a PR card UNTIL actually moving back to Canada to live, and otherwise relying on obtaining a PR Travel Document for travel to Canada in the meantime. The latter is inconvenient compared to getting a new PR card, but most signs indicating best practices are pointing in the direction IRCC prefers.

IN CONTRAST . . . we know some of the factors which can trigger who-accompanied-whom problems, including:
-- the PR has not actually lived in Canada at all for any significant period of time​
-- pattern of travel history or address history (including the citizen's address history) indicates the PR has been established abroad and the citizen went abroad to join the PR​
-- otherwise, incongruities in travel history or address history (again, including the citizen's address history) raising related questions (such as whether the couple are ordinarily living together or their time together is one visiting the other, among others)​

While who-accompanied-whom problems may be triggered by other circumstances, those are the main ones we have seen. In situations similar to these, the PR should indeed more carefully consider whether they will be allowed RO credit or possibly be denied credit if it is determined the citizen was accompanying the PR rather than the PR accompanying the citizen.



Beyond that . . .

The application for PR card does not request any information specifically in regards to who is supporting whom. (Same for PR Travel Document application.)

However, a copy of the citizen's passport must be submitted, along with documents showing the address history of the citizen-spouse for ALL FIVE YEARS.

In some (rather few so far as can be discerned) cases, IRCC might consider who-accompanied-whom. If the PR and citizen spouse were SETTLED and living IN Canada for an appreciable period of time before moving abroad, and they moved abroad either together, or relatively close in time, the risk that IRCC might inquire into who-accompanied-whom is probably quite low. No problem.

A widely disparate address history for the five years, such as where the couple live at different locations for a substantial part of the relevant five years, might also trigger who-accompanied-whom questions.

Where a who-accompanied-whom issue arises, yes IRCC can assess whether the PR has been "accompanying" the citizen spouse, or whether the citizen-spouse is the one "accompanying" the PR. How that works gets complicated.

As noted, I diverge a little from the observation by @scylla, in particular in regards to this:
"If the primary reason for living outside of Canada is due to the permanent resident's employment then this doesn't technically fit the rule and you shouldn't assume IRCC will let you count it."​

The "rule," technically, is that for purposes of the accompanying-a-Canadian-citizen-spouse-abroad credit, the applicable section in the IRPR (the Regulations), section 61(4) -- should link, states that "a permanent resident is accompanying outside Canada a Canadian citizen . . . who is their spouse . . . on each day that the permanent resident is ordinarily residing with the Canadian citizen . . ."

And the applicable operational guideline (ENF 23) states:

In the case of a permanent resident outside Canada accompanying a Canadian citizen, it is not necessary to determine who is accompanying whom, nor is it necessary to determine for what purpose. In other words, under A28(2)(a)(ii) and R61(4), as long as a permanent resident is accompanying a Canadian citizen, the intent and purpose of their absences are not relevant as the residency obligation is met.

That said, there have been some cases not only where IRCC probes and considers who-accompanied-whom, but moreover in some cases decision-makers have approached this as @scylla describes. That is there is one approach (among at least three different approaches) to applying the accompanying-a-Canadian-citizen-spouse-abroad credit for which what @scylla says somewhat describes how the rule works. BUT it warrants emphasizing, again, if the couple was living together IN Canada and moved abroad together, and they have been living abroad together, the risk of IRCC even probing who-accompanied-whom ranges from very low to minimal, regardless of the reason for the move abroad.

Note Distinguishing PR card Application Versus PR Travel Document Application:
There is a higher risk of IRCC employing a more probing, stricter approach in processing a PR TD application than a PR card application (assuming the PR is actually IN Canada making the PR card application). This is in part due to the statutorily prescribed presumption that a PR outside Canada without a valid PR card is *presumed* to not have PR status, but also about more confidence, generally, in the PR's account when the PR is IN Canada, especially when it is readily perceived the PR is at least now settled in Canada. EVEN for a PR TD application, nonetheless, the risk of a who-accompanied-whom problem should remain low or even very low for a PR and citizen spouse who were living together IN Canada and moved abroad together, and they have been living abroad together. Again, regardless of the reason for the move abroad; regardless of the move being to facilitate the PR's employment abroad.​

If, however, the situation is one which might trigger inquiry into who-accompanied-whom, THEN this becomes an issue the PR should be more cautious about . . . which points back to "Who-accompanied-whom can matter for PRs living with citizen spouse abroad: UPDATE" here: https://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/threads/who-accompanied-whom-can-matter-for-prs-living-with-citizen-spouse-abroad-update.579860/
 
Last edited:

armoured

VIP Member
Feb 1, 2015
15,790
8,007
It can be complicated, especially when the situation itself is more complicated, but overall if the PR was SETTLED and living IN Canada with the citizen-spouse for a substantial period of time BEFORE the couple moved abroad together, and they mostly live together while abroad, why they moved abroad will NOT be asked and will NOT matter.
Leaving aside the relatively simple cases, more or less as you described, it is my belief - or perhaps impression is more accurate - that one of the factors that they are paying attention to, and may be one of the principal factors, is whether the 'accompanying' de facto consists of the PR never establishing in Canada (or at all) and effectively remaining settled in the country that the PR (or family) was originally from or resided in before 'immigrating' to Canada.

Or put more simply: that the main issue the 'accompanying' provision potentially allows for is for the PR to retain PR status forever without ever inconveniencing themselves by settling in Canada or really even leaving the country they ostensibly emigrated from.

Documentation (all cases referenced in that other thread) in a really simple summary:
-Elfadul: PR basically continued working in Saudi Arabia (although a national of Sudan);
-Wu: a bit complicated, but basically could be seen as returned to China;
-Raheja: same, India (I think a typo referring to Pakistan in last para of decision);
-Cherrak: same, Algeria;
-Rafuson: same, Phillipines;
-Mustafa: same, Pakistan.

All but one case are PRs 'accompanying' their spouses to their country of citizenship and primary residence before becoming PRs. The other case was just the country of primary residence before becoming PR.

Not a single case of a PR 'accompanying' to a third country.

Therefore I suggest first useful question is: is the country in question, to which the PR ostensibly accompanied one's spouse, also the country where the PR is originally from or resided and worked in before becoming a PR? News flash: IRCC might be a bit suspicious that this doesn't constitute in substance 'accompanying', and something more like 'returning to' or 'never having left' country of residence.

[Which isn't outright forbidden in this part of the law and regs but is something we know IRCC doesn't 'like.' They don't want PR status to be status of convenience, and the RO is designed around that (albeit loosely).]

Now I recognize the statistical issue: that we don't know the ex ante distribution, and it's highly likely that a large number of such cases (accompanying spouse) are approved also, simply because a lot of PRs have work or family ties in their countries of origin (or just plain better paying jobs).

But I'm a bit simplistic: it seems to fit with other rather obvious policy aspects of how IRCC approaches things, and the stats - albeit with a very low N - suggest this is a big factor in whether they even consider the issue.
 
  • Like
Reactions: dpenabill

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,307
3,068
Leaving aside the relatively simple cases, more or less as you described, it is my belief - or perhaps impression is more accurate - that one of the factors that they are paying attention to, and may be one of the principal factors, is whether the 'accompanying' de facto consists of the PR never establishing in Canada (or at all) and effectively remaining settled in the country that the PR (or family) was originally from or resided in before 'immigrating' to Canada.

[et al]
Yeah. Very much, yeah.

Albeit I cannot confirm "Not a single case of a PR 'accompanying' to a third country." There was one (would have to revisit research to find it) where the couple moved to a non-home country in Europe, but that case was an anomaly for multiple reasons -- the couple was settled and living in Canada prior to the move abroad, for example -- but there were hints of, well, other factors influencing how that turned out (including, my suspicion, potential discrimination against a same-sex common-law couple).

And without revisiting all the known cases, my vague recall does not exclude some cases where either the U.S. or Dubai were the destinations and not the PR's home country.

But I emphatically agree with the gist of your comments, that the known cases are almost overwhelming oriented around situations in which the couple reside in the PR's home country, in circumstances where it is rather blatantly apparent that the citizen has moved abroad to be with the PR.

This is one of those issues which I am confident affects only a small percentage, and by that I also mean a small percentage of PRs relying on credit for time abroad living with their citizen spouse. Sure, we do not know the underlying statistics, but the very small number of these cases seen in appeals, and very few anecdotal reports in forums, suggests that this is generally NOT an issue. Whereas, in contrast, it is readily apparent that scores of PRs are living abroad with Canadian citizen spouses and relying on that to keep their PR status, and it is very likely the PR's roots or employment are often why many of them are there.

I apprehend that the way this issue is discussed here tends to make it seem like a bigger and more common problem than it actually is.

BUT . . . in those situations which trigger an inquiry into who-accompanied-whom, it can indeed be a real issue. There are real cases in which PRs lose PR status in which they have been denied credit for days living abroad with a Canadian citizen spouse.

Bringing this to the OP . . . @Em W . . . my previous post, and so far to here, have been in response to the query posed, as posed.

My impression based on other posts by the OP is that their situation does NOT fit the couple settled and living in Canada THEN moved abroad together scenario. So, to the extent that @scylla's observations were basically a caution, and @Tubsmagee suggestion was to review the other topic, those may very well be right on target, very much on point.

That is, the query posted here was framed in general terms. For which you and I have made observations about how things generally work. But how things work always depends on the particular facts and circumstances in the specific individual's case.

Note, for example, just as an example, where both individuals in a marital relationship have obtained PR status, but only one actually lives in Canada, and that one does so long enough to qualify for and become a Canadian citizen, and then the citizen moves abroad to be with the other spouse, the one who is still a PR, that does NOT fit what we know to be a low risk of who-accompanied-whom problems. We do not know and really cannot even guess what the probabilities are, that RO compliance credit might be denied in such scenarios, but this would fit what I previously referred to as "situations similar" to those I described as potentially triggering the who-accompanied-whom issue. This would be, after all, one of those scenarios where it at least appears the citizen moved abroad to be with the PR. I do not know that this is relevant in the OP's situation. If it is, well, that suggests it would be prudent for @Em W to exercise caution before relying on the accompanying-a-citizen-spouse credit.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: armoured

armoured

VIP Member
Feb 1, 2015
15,790
8,007
But I emphatically agree with the gist of your comments, that the known cases are almost overwhelming oriented around situations in which the couple reside in the PR's home country, in circumstances where it is rather blatantly apparent that the citizen has moved abroad to be with the PR.
Yes, agree. I should note that my 'not a single case' was based only on the cses I happened to look at in that other thread, so certainly not statistically valid. And you rightly note that individual facts of the case matter (and we often only see a ... subset of those facts).

Anyway this was a bit of a tangent from the OP's query, but which I'd intended to be an explicit point in these who-accompanies-whom questions - one of the first and most important facts to determine when members ask here may be ---- is this accompanied to your country of origin/residence prior to becoming a PR, and do the facts suggest you haven't actually left / stopped residing in that country?

If it's a no to both, then it's much more likely to be a straightforward and positive case. (Caveat that yes to both is not determinative of trouble, but increased risk of scrutiny)
 
  • Like
Reactions: dpenabill

Em W

Star Member
Feb 4, 2020
109
75
@armoured @dpenabill Thank you guys so much for your detailed inputs. It's mind-blowing that such a topic can go to certain lengths like this. I know that my query has been rather more general so maybe with a little bit more context, a closer expectation of the outcome can be achieved, though I know that It's mostly been circumstantial when it comes to the who-accompanies-whom scenarios as far as most factors seem to be straightforward.

With so much uncertainty at hand, it's terrifying to know the kind of impact that can change the courses of families based entirely on a single decision made by an IRCC officer. Rather unimaginable if you think about it deeply enough. I wish it was a little bit more direct and clear.

We are a family of Syrian citizens. Parents lived in Saudi Arabia together since 1997.
In 2017, we left for Canada except for the father who stayed back in Saudi for work (20 years of total continuous cohabitation).


We landed as PRs in mid-2020. My mom then applied for spousal sponsorship to bring my dad as a PR, the application is still pending. Note that my dad never had PR before. Now that my mom is about to become a citizen and we hope the spousal sponsorship is concluded soon, we are planning out potential pathways and setting out our expectations. We want to know what's coming ahead of us. We're not fans of surprises really, we had plenty of them throughout the years.


If my dad landed as a PR and immediately went back to Saudi with my hypothetically naturalized mom to settle and live in Saudi as they did previously. Assuming they do that for the next 5 years, dad is working and mom is living with him. What are the chances of popping back to Canada, applying for a PR card renewal, or applying for a PRTD from Saudi knowing that the father was never established in Canada but rather lived with the Canadian spouse for those 5 years?


What are the odds here...
 

armoured

VIP Member
Feb 1, 2015
15,790
8,007
If my dad landed as a PR and immediately went back to Saudi with my hypothetically naturalized mom to settle and live in Saudi as they did previously. Assuming they do that for the next 5 years, dad is working and mom is living with him. What are the chances of popping back to Canada, applying for a PR card renewal, or applying for a PRTD from Saudi knowing that the father was never established in Canada but rather lived with the Canadian spouse for those 5 years?


What are the odds here...
Impossible for anyone to say, really. But:

-PR status is intended for those who intend to reside in Canada. It's really not designed for those who do not.

-It sounds like what your father intends or wishes to do is visit Canada. Perhaps apply for a visitor visa?

-If she wishes to sponsor him in the future, no real issue in doing so.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,307
3,068
If my dad landed as a PR and immediately went back to Saudi with my hypothetically naturalized mom to settle and live in Saudi as they did previously. Assuming they do that for the next 5 years, dad is working and mom is living with him. What are the chances of popping back to Canada, applying for a PR card renewal, or applying for a PRTD from Saudi knowing that the father was never established in Canada but rather lived with the Canadian spouse for those 5 years?

What are the odds here...
Totally concur in response by @armoured . . .

. . . and repeat for emphasis that the purpose for granting PR status is to allow that individual to SETTLE IN Canada, to move to Canada to live permanently (and in the case of a family class sponsorship, so that the individual can be united with Canadian family to live in Canada).

Also for emphasis: we really have very little information that would help us quantify the risks, the probabilities, "the odds," that any particular PR will encounter a problem based on who-accompanied-whom. We just do not know. We can say that the scenario you describe fits a pattern in which there are known cases where PRs have encountered a problem based on who-accompanied-whom, as outlined above and in more detail in the other topic referenced. But we have almost no idea what percentage of PRs in similar situations encounter this. Some, for sure, as seen in the known cases; but there are not a lot of those. And that's about all we know, statistically, about "the odds."

So, as @armoured noted, no one here can tell you the odds.


Further Observations; the Long Explanation:

Note that the intent to come to Canada to live, is actually a requirement for getting PR status . . . in addition to all the other eligibility qualifications necessary to be granted PR status, meaning even if the individual meets all the other requirements for being granted PR status (such as those particular to the class in which the individual has applied), to qualify for and be issued "a permanent resident visa," it must be established that "the foreign national is coming to Canada to establish permanent residence." This is Regulation 70(1)(b) IRPR; see here: https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-2002-227/page-10.html#h-686540

This generally gets little attention except in a few situations, like a family class sponsorship where a Canadian citizen who is living abroad is eligible to sponsor a spouse (if the sponsor is a PR, for example, the PR must be living in Canada to be eligible to sponsor their spouse), in which cases the applicants (sponsor and spouse) must specifically represent the intent to move to Canada to live, once the sponsored spouse is issued a PR visa, and present a concrete plan for doing so.

Once PR status is actually obtained, this rarely plays any significant role in regards to the PR's status.

There is, after all, a steady stream of new PRs who specifically plan to make what is called a "soft landing," in which they come to Canada NOT to establish a permanent residence in Canada but just to take that final step in the process of becoming a PR, planning to stay in Canada only briefly, planning to return at some later date, to return to Canada in time to comply with the 2/5 year Residency Obligation. That is, they come to Canada to obtain Permanent Resident status, not to establish an in fact permanent residence in Canada.

And there is very little if any indication that the Canadian government, generally, or IRCC or CBSA in particular, have a problem with this. There is nothing in published policies, practices, or guidelines, that says this is not acceptable. Nothing in actual cases or anecdotal reports indicating this causes problems (except many fail to make the move to Canada longer than planned, and run into the three year limit).

Bringing the long explanation around to this . . .

With so much uncertainty at hand, it's terrifying to know the kind of impact that can change the courses of families based entirely on a single decision made by an IRCC officer. Rather unimaginable if you think about it deeply enough. I wish it was a little bit more direct and clear.
. . . and a bit of editorial commentary . . . to be continued . . .
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,307
3,068
The long explanation coming round to this . . .

With so much uncertainty at hand, it's terrifying to know the kind of impact that can change the courses of families based entirely on a single decision made by an IRCC officer. Rather unimaginable if you think about it deeply enough. I wish it was a little bit more direct and clear.
. . . and a bit of editorial commentary:

Actually, as noted above, the rule, the law, the policy, is direct and clear: PR status is granted so the individual can come to Canada to establish a permanent residence in Canada (not just obtain the status of being a Canadian; noting that PRs are "Canadians").

The implementation and enforcement of the law, including the policy and purpose of the law, however, allows for a lot of flexibility and leniency. The Canadian government allows Canadians a wide range of flexibility in managing their own lives. This is illustrated by and evident in the PR Residency Obligation itself: PRs can actually live abroad more than they live in Canada (up to three years out of five) and still keep their PR status, NO questions asked, no need to explain let alone justify the reason for spending most of one's life outside Canada.

The 2/5 RO is not intended to facilitate a lifestyle where the individual does not fully settle permanently in Canada, living outside Canada more than in Canada. BUT it ALLOWS it. It is intended to allow individual PRs the ability to personally navigate the highly variable contingencies encountered in real life, including attending to family needs abroad or to deal with emergencies, even employment opportunities abroad, without having to answer to the Canadian government. PRs get to choose their own priorities. PRs are not subject to getting IRCC approval, not confined by any "decision made by an IRCC officer," but, rather, PRs can decide for themselves if and when circumstances weigh in favour of living outside Canada for an extended period of time . . . up to three years in any five (with fairly liberal and lenient, oft times rather generous allowances beyond that, for "H&C" reasons . . . and allowances for additional "exceptions" like employment abroad for a Canadian business or when "accompanying" a citizen spouse).
[footnote: this is NOT about my opinion, not about what I believe the law's policy or purpose should be, not about what I think the law "should be;" these observations are derived from extensive reading and research into how the law has been interpreted and applied in official proceedings.]​

There is often a difference between the purpose of a system of laws (like those governing immigration), the laws' objectives, versus what the law allows. The latter, what the law allows, particularly in many more progressive, democratic, more or less "liberal" countries, like Canada, is often far broader than the particular objectives or purpose of the law.

There can be a tendency to approach the rules, so to say, oriented to what they allow with minimal regard for what the law, what the rules, intend. As humans, after all, we see the world from our own individual perspective, focused on navigating our own path. We generally approach the rules in a way that works for us.

In regards to rules like the PR RO, the 2/5 rule, that is fine so long as the PR actually stays inside the lines. The lines, again, being very widely drawn, giving individual PRs total discretion to decide for themselves if and when they need to spend a lengthy time abroad, up to three years in five and, moreover, allowing additional "exceptions" . . . such as the one at issue here: the RO credit allowed for a PR who "accompanies" their Canadian citizen spouse abroad.


What Is NOT So Clear:

It is not clear what circumstances will trigger consideration of who-accompanied-whom, either by CBSA (in conducting a Port-of-Entry RO compliance examination) or IRCC (in a visa office processing a PR Travel Document application, or internal office processing a PR card application).

More problematic is that it is also NOT clear what the parameters are in determining whether the PR was accompanying their Canadian citizen spouse when who-accompanied-whom is at issue.

I generally try to steer clear of commenting on what the law "should be," with some exceptions. But I will, for example, say the law should be consistent, uniformly applied, and reasonably predictable. If, as here, there are three completely different approaches to how the law is applied, and there is no way to know in advance which approach will be applied, that's a problem. That's something in need of a fix. For one thing, an important thing, this invariably leads to different outcomes for people otherwise substantively in the same situation, which fits squarely into any definition of injustice.

That Said . . . in some respects, it might make more sense to focus on whether the circumstances show the that either of the spouses was "accompanying" the other, not a matter of who-accompanied-whom but, rather, whether either was actually "accompanying" the other.

I, and others, often address this topic in terms of what triggers consideration of the who-accompanied-whom question, but it may be helpful to recognize that the circumstances in which this issue arises tend to be, if not overwhelmingly so, circumstances in which it patently appears that the individuals were NOT accompanying one another in arriving at the place where they may be living together abroad, but rather the citizen more or less joined the PR abroad (the most common scenario where this issue arises, usually the PR's home country) or otherwise the couple came together abroad, NEITHER "accompanying" (in even a very broad, general sense of what "accompanying" means) the other there.

As I previously, and in other topics have repeatedly noted, for a couple who are settled and living in Canada BEFORE moving abroad together, and "ordinarily" living together (over the course of their relationship, not just two years), the risk of encountering a who-accompanied-whom problem is very low, virtually minimal. Regardless why they moved abroad; regardless for which one's reasons they made the move.

Actual enforcement tends to be significantly less strict than that. Which is more about what the law and its implementation allow, not about the purpose or intent of the law and its enforcement.

So, I still diverge from how @scylla framed it:
"If the primary reason for living outside of Canada is due to the permanent resident's employment then this doesn't technically fit the rule and you shouldn't assume IRCC will let you count it."​

But it may be fair to say that if the PR and citizen were not actually accompanying one another in going abroad, perhaps it is rather obvious that there is a risk of NOT getting credit for "accompanying" the citizen abroad, that as @scylla put it, the PR shouldn't assume IRCC will let the PR count it.

That is, in the latter situation, in cases where one might say it appears that neither was accompanying the other, yeah, it is difficult to know for sure whether the credit will be allowed for periods of time the couple were living together abroad . . . for now the PR bears the risk.

One last comment in regards to what can "change the courses of families based entirely on a single decision made by an IRCC officer." Fortunately that is NOT how things work in Canada. If an IRCC officer, in a visa office, denies a PR Travel Document based on applying the more strict approach to the accompanying-citizen-spouse credit, the PR has a right of appeal and as long as the PR appeals it will require the decision of a reviewing IAD panel to cause the PR to lose status.

There is an additional level of review for PRs in Canada, including those being examined in a Canadian Port-of-Entry. The 44(1) Report procedure must be followed (for either a PoE examination or for a PR in Canada applying for a PR card), and this requires one officer making the decision to prepare the Report, and then a second officer (called a "Minister's Delegate, but who is just another officer) deciding whether that Report is valid in law, and whether H&C relief should be allowed, before a decision to terminate PR status is made. AND if that happens, there is a decision to terminate PR status, the PR still has the right of appeal and it will be up to an IAD panel to decide.

Difference between PR TD process and the in-Canada process is that a PR abroad who does not have a PR card is presumed to not be a PR.

In any event, what happens cannot be dictated by a "single IRCC officer."
 

canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
53,092
12,816
I see another potential complication with your mother’s plan. It seems as though she received asylum and is a protected person. She obviously sought asylum from Syria but is planning on returning to KSA where she had previously spent the majority of her adult life before claiming asylum.

Your mother should only be sponsoring her husband when they both plan on living in Canada permanently or within a year of settling in Canada permanently. The particulars of her situation don’t look good which can prompt IRCC to explore the who accompanied whom issue. She came to Canada and applied for asylum and then returned to her previous life in KSA as soon as she received citizenship. Having granted her asylum it doesn’t look great that she returned to her previous life for which she received protected status. I understand that the fact that she couldn’t get citizenship in KSA and your family’s status was tied to employment in KSA but the optics are horrible. If your father never relocates to Canada and wants to try and renew his PR status after 5 years having not changed anything about his life this is exactly the cases that usually prompt the who accompanied whom issues. Not saying that your father will lose his PR status in the end but it could be an expensive situation.
 
Last edited: