Hot news-Pre-clearance bill would give U.S. border agents in Canada new powers
- Thread starter bigben3
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The part related to CBSA officers being able to block Canadian PR's who do not meet their residency obligations from boarding flights to Canada is a HUGE change. Wow.bigben3 said:https://www.google.ca/amp/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.3976123?client=ms-android-samsung
Well, its block those they suspect of not meeting PR obligations, as PRs are supposed to get a hearing before a determination is made. But, what does this mean? CBSA officers are going to be stationed at US airports now? The article was frustratingly vague on that.torontosm said:The part related to CBSA officers being able to block Canadian PR's who do not meet their residency obligations from boarding flights to Canada is a HUGE change. Wow.
Yes, but this is still a stark departure from the current system where PR's are automatically allowed to enter Canada, even if they are clearly in breach of their RO. Under the new system, this would only apply to land borders, thereby making entry to Canada much harder for most overseas PR's.links18 said:Well, its block those they suspect of not meeting PR obligations, as PRs are supposed to get a hearing before a determination is made. But, what does this mean? CBSA officers are going to be stationed at US airports now? The article was frustratingly vague on that.
CBSA officers already operate in numerous international airports and perform secondary checks on any passengers traveling to Canada that are identified at "suspicious". I have observed it first-hand on multiple occasions while flying through the middle eastern airports.
You have seen CBSA officers in uniforms at foreign airports?torontosm said:Yes, but this is still a stark departure from the current system where PR's are automatically allowed to enter Canada, even if they are clearly in breach of their RO. Under the new system, this would only apply to land borders, thereby making entry to Canada much harder for most overseas PR's.
CBSA officers already operate in numerous international airports and perform secondary checks on any passengers traveling to Canada that are identified at "suspicious". I have observed it first-hand on multiple occasions while flying through the middle eastern airports.
Bill C-23 "An Act respecting the preclearance of persons and goods in Canada and the United States"
For full text (in English) of Bill C-23, "An Act respecting the preclearance of persons and goods in Canada and the United States," see
http://www.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?Language=E&Mode=1&DocId=8380353&Col=1
Note, the First Reading of this Bill was in June, last year and it has NOT progressed through the legislative process at all since then.
The CBC article refers to the likelihood that this Bill will be adopted into law. It is actually a long, long way from that happening.
In the meantime, the world has changed, and in particular potentially huge changes in Canada's relationship to that Big, Big Brother to the South are looming large, a gold-gilded-goon posing YUGE and already dramatically altering the landscape of international relations.
Note: there have long been preclearance areas at certain airports on both sides of the border (I first encountered American customs clearance at Pearson 17 years ago almost to the day; I recall it because it was a total surprise and because it was notably more strict than other customs control encounters at the time -- that being before 9/11 when crossing the border between the U.S. and Canada was far, far more relaxed than these days). These facilitate direct flights to airports in the other country which do not have facilities for screening international travelers.
Codification of the rules governing these should be applauded. It is almost always better to have well-defined statutory provisions than it is to have government bodies engaged in conduct that is at best vaguely prescribed and operated largely according to internal practices and policies typically formulated behind closed curtains.
But of course the fact that codification is preferable is not the same as determining what particular rules should be codified. And given the changes taking place with the other country involved in this arrangement, there are indeed some serious questions to be addressed regarding the particulars.
For example, it is not merely possible, but highly likely that prior to the imposition of a Temporary Restraining Order against the implementation of the U.S. President's EO effectively constituting a travel ban, that for a short time after the EO was issued American authorities located in already existing preclearance areas, in Canadian airports, were violating Canada's Charter of Rights.
Sooner or later some version of a Bill similar to Bill C-23 is likely to be adopted. Canada already agreed to do this (an agreement entered into by the Harper government back in March of 2015). But my sense is that this particular Bill, Bill C-23, will face some serious challenges arising from just the fact of who the President of the U.S. now is, and it is far from certain that this Bill, as is, will become law.
There are (as others have noted above) some provisions which can have a serious impact on Canadian PRs attempting to travel to Canada from the U.S.
I am drafting more comprehensive observations about this and will post that in the conference about Permanent Residency Obligations.
For full text (in English) of Bill C-23, "An Act respecting the preclearance of persons and goods in Canada and the United States," see
http://www.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?Language=E&Mode=1&DocId=8380353&Col=1
Note, the First Reading of this Bill was in June, last year and it has NOT progressed through the legislative process at all since then.
The CBC article refers to the likelihood that this Bill will be adopted into law. It is actually a long, long way from that happening.
In the meantime, the world has changed, and in particular potentially huge changes in Canada's relationship to that Big, Big Brother to the South are looming large, a gold-gilded-goon posing YUGE and already dramatically altering the landscape of international relations.
Note: there have long been preclearance areas at certain airports on both sides of the border (I first encountered American customs clearance at Pearson 17 years ago almost to the day; I recall it because it was a total surprise and because it was notably more strict than other customs control encounters at the time -- that being before 9/11 when crossing the border between the U.S. and Canada was far, far more relaxed than these days). These facilitate direct flights to airports in the other country which do not have facilities for screening international travelers.
Codification of the rules governing these should be applauded. It is almost always better to have well-defined statutory provisions than it is to have government bodies engaged in conduct that is at best vaguely prescribed and operated largely according to internal practices and policies typically formulated behind closed curtains.
But of course the fact that codification is preferable is not the same as determining what particular rules should be codified. And given the changes taking place with the other country involved in this arrangement, there are indeed some serious questions to be addressed regarding the particulars.
For example, it is not merely possible, but highly likely that prior to the imposition of a Temporary Restraining Order against the implementation of the U.S. President's EO effectively constituting a travel ban, that for a short time after the EO was issued American authorities located in already existing preclearance areas, in Canadian airports, were violating Canada's Charter of Rights.
Sooner or later some version of a Bill similar to Bill C-23 is likely to be adopted. Canada already agreed to do this (an agreement entered into by the Harper government back in March of 2015). But my sense is that this particular Bill, Bill C-23, will face some serious challenges arising from just the fact of who the President of the U.S. now is, and it is far from certain that this Bill, as is, will become law.
There are (as others have noted above) some provisions which can have a serious impact on Canadian PRs attempting to travel to Canada from the U.S.
I am drafting more comprehensive observations about this and will post that in the conference about Permanent Residency Obligations.
They aren't in uniform, but were wearing badges. They were pulling people aside, identifying themselves as representatives of the Canadian government, and asking a variety of questions. I did see them offload a few passengers and detain them for further questioning.links18 said:You have seen CBSA officers in uniforms at foreign airports?
According to the website, CBSA oficers operate in 13 international airports already:
http://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/agency-agence/what-quoi-eng.html
To be clear, most of those "international airports" referenced are in Canada, and actually probably all since there are 13 airports in Canada designated by Canada Transport as "international airports" (but there are also many, many more airports in Canada otherwise referred to as "international").torontosm said:They aren't in uniform, but were wearing badges. They were pulling people aside, identifying themselves as representatives of the Canadian government, and asking a variety of questions. I did see them offload a few passengers and detain them for further questioning.
According to the website, CBSA oficers operate in 13 international airports already:
http://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/agency-agence/what-quoi-eng.html
But yes, as previously noted, the U.S. and Canada have had preclearance facilities at certain airports in the other country, respectively, so that those airports can provide direct flights to smaller cities in the other country.
CBSA reports (same site as linked) that uniformed CBSA officers provide services at 39 international locations. This is the group which, I think, references those CBSA provided preclearance services at certain U.S. airports.
only encountered private security contractors in foreign countries doing "document checks" for flights to Canada.
Did not ever see anyone with CBSA badge or uniform or even any hint.
They check everyone's docs, not just PR's and that has been the procedure for as long as i remember.
I've never seen Canadian CBSA's preclearance anywhere in usa or elsewhere. It would be too expensive as well.
In most places Canadian diplomatic staff can easily provide checks at airports (such as consular, immigration officers posted abroad).
Did not ever see anyone with CBSA badge or uniform or even any hint.
They check everyone's docs, not just PR's and that has been the procedure for as long as i remember.
I've never seen Canadian CBSA's preclearance anywhere in usa or elsewhere. It would be too expensive as well.
In most places Canadian diplomatic staff can easily provide checks at airports (such as consular, immigration officers posted abroad).
Hi
Here is quote from a CBSA publication
"The workshop brought together Migration Integrity Officers (MIO's) from Canadian missions throughout the Asia-Pacific and Africa-Middle East regions, including the two officers posted to the Canadian Consulate in Hong Kong."
1. Actually there are CBSA Migration Integrity Officers stationed as overseas missions. In 2009 there were 39 stationed overseas and you have to assume there are more.canvis2006 said:only encountered private security contractors in foreign countries doing "document checks" for flights to Canada.
Did not ever see anyone with CBSA badge or uniform or even any hint.
They check everyone's docs, not just PR's and that has been the procedure for as long as i remember.
I've never seen Canadian CBSA's preclearance anywhere in usa or elsewhere. It would be too expensive as well.
In most places Canadian diplomatic staff can easily provide checks at airports (such as consular, immigration officers posted abroad).
Here is quote from a CBSA publication
"The workshop brought together Migration Integrity Officers (MIO's) from Canadian missions throughout the Asia-Pacific and Africa-Middle East regions, including the two officers posted to the Canadian Consulate in Hong Kong."
There have been preclearance procedures in place at a few certain airports in both Canada and the U.S. for a long while. Some U.S. officers in Canadian airports, providing preclearance for particular flights to certain U.S. destinations (as I previously noted, my first experience with this was 17 years ago). Some Canadian officials in U.S. airpots providing preclearance for particular flights to certain Canadian destinations.
As the CBSA site linked by torontosm overtly states: there are 39 locations abroad where CBSA officers provide services.
This has nothing to do with what is encountered in any airport outside the U.S. or Canada, nor with what is encountered at most U.S. or Canadian airports, international or otherwise.
To be filed in the category of observations by those who have only ever seen a giraffe in a zoo, never in the wild, and conclude reports about giraffes in the wild must be false:
In any event, the preclearance procedure has been operating both sides of the U.S. and Canadian border for a long while. It is limited to a very few locations. It facilitates offering direct flights to smaller cities without the need to route the flights through the respective international airports (in the destination country) with in-place border control.
The March 2015 agreement between the U.S. and the Harper government expanded and in other respects provided for more formalized procedures, including these preclearance procedures at certain airports. As the Harper government was wont to do, however, the agreement entered into went beyond what Canadian law overtly provides for. Bill C-23 is among many measures the current government has been compelled to do in the effort to clean-up and fix a lot of the mess created by the Harper government.
In other words, these preclearance procedures are NOT new, but Bill C-23 is an effort to codify the regulation of these procedures.
And, these provisions go beyond the scope of those preclearance procedures which have been in place for some time, such as those provisions which will allow for PRs to be denied entry into Canada if determined to be inadmissible despite sections 19(2) and 27(1) in IRPA which essentially give PRs a statutory right to enter Canada.
Note: contrary to what is stated in the CBC article, about the likelihood that Bill C-23 will be adopted and become law, I would suggest that this is far from a sure-bet and given the new American Administration, a gold-gilded-buffoon at the head and a mean-spirited goon apparently calling a lot of the shots, it is at least an open question whether this bill will advance much through the legislative process. It is a long way from being enacted.
As the CBSA site linked by torontosm overtly states: there are 39 locations abroad where CBSA officers provide services.
This has nothing to do with what is encountered in any airport outside the U.S. or Canada, nor with what is encountered at most U.S. or Canadian airports, international or otherwise.
To be filed in the category of observations by those who have only ever seen a giraffe in a zoo, never in the wild, and conclude reports about giraffes in the wild must be false:
canvis2006 said:only encountered private security contractors in foreign countries doing "document checks" for flights to Canada.
Did not ever see anyone with CBSA badge or uniform or even any hint.
They check everyone's docs, not just PR's and that has been the procedure for as long as i remember.
I've never seen Canadian CBSA's preclearance anywhere in usa or elsewhere. It would be too expensive as well.
In most places Canadian diplomatic staff can easily provide checks at airports (such as consular, immigration officers posted abroad).
Here is a clue: there is a lot in the world you have not seen and indeed never will see. It is a big world, full of all sorts of stuff some of which is more or less unusual. What you do not see does not mean it does not exist (unless one's philosophical perspective is that of a solipsist, or such).sistemc said:I never saw a CBSA officer on any of the airport outside the Canada. And I am flying to Canada from Europe or USA.
What you have now are Air Canada ground crew employees asking passengers for documents and their status before boarding.
In any event, the preclearance procedure has been operating both sides of the U.S. and Canadian border for a long while. It is limited to a very few locations. It facilitates offering direct flights to smaller cities without the need to route the flights through the respective international airports (in the destination country) with in-place border control.
The March 2015 agreement between the U.S. and the Harper government expanded and in other respects provided for more formalized procedures, including these preclearance procedures at certain airports. As the Harper government was wont to do, however, the agreement entered into went beyond what Canadian law overtly provides for. Bill C-23 is among many measures the current government has been compelled to do in the effort to clean-up and fix a lot of the mess created by the Harper government.
In other words, these preclearance procedures are NOT new, but Bill C-23 is an effort to codify the regulation of these procedures.
And, these provisions go beyond the scope of those preclearance procedures which have been in place for some time, such as those provisions which will allow for PRs to be denied entry into Canada if determined to be inadmissible despite sections 19(2) and 27(1) in IRPA which essentially give PRs a statutory right to enter Canada.
Note: contrary to what is stated in the CBC article, about the likelihood that Bill C-23 will be adopted and become law, I would suggest that this is far from a sure-bet and given the new American Administration, a gold-gilded-buffoon at the head and a mean-spirited goon apparently calling a lot of the shots, it is at least an open question whether this bill will advance much through the legislative process. It is a long way from being enacted.
There's a lot more to this bill than just travel by air preclearance.
This is an article in an American newspaper when the equivalent US bill was passed . Yes it's old -but you get a more deep understanding of the positives.
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2016/12/10/canadian-border-bill-passes-u-s-congress-enables-long-awaited-reforms_n_13549724.html
Not to say there are no negatives and I hope our government can migitate them before enacting the bill.
This is an article in an American newspaper when the equivalent US bill was passed . Yes it's old -but you get a more deep understanding of the positives.
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2016/12/10/canadian-border-bill-passes-u-s-congress-enables-long-awaited-reforms_n_13549724.html
Not to say there are no negatives and I hope our government can migitate them before enacting the bill.