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Short travel, long temp travel, and permanent addresses.

AtlanticCat

Full Member
Oct 18, 2018
41
1
Hello!

I became a PR in late 2018. my Soft landing and the actual move which happened in mid 2020, I remained in my home country working and living. I did some short vacations and business trips from and back to my home country. Max. trip length was 2 weeks, where should I report these trips when applying for citizenship?

Another question please, my spouse spent one year overseas due to personal reasons taking care of a family member in our home country. I was still in Canada working and our permanent address didn't change here in Canada. Should I put her address in our home country in the address history or list the one in Canada. She paid taxes for that year here in Canada as she was resident for tax purposes too. We will list this year in the activity/work form but I wasn't sure which address to put in the address form.
 

yyzstudent

Champion Member
Nov 6, 2015
1,334
702
Even if you apply together you are two individuals who will be processed individually. As she was out of country for an extended period of time, her address list will be different from yours.
 

AtlanticCat

Full Member
Oct 18, 2018
41
1
Even if you apply together you are two individuals who will be processed individually. As she was out of country for an extended period of time, her address list will be different from yours.
I understand being two individuals. My spouse was away temporarily but the period kept get extended due to many personal reasons. She maintained and residence and strong ties in Canada all this time. Even mail was sent to her Canadian address. Btw, no gap will be left in the activity or address forms
 

yyzstudent

Champion Member
Nov 6, 2015
1,334
702
I understand being two individuals. My spouse was away temporarily but the period kept get extended due to many personal reasons. She maintained and residence and strong ties in Canada all this time. Even mail was sent to her Canadian address. Btw, no gap will be left in the activity or address forms
Maintaining residence means to be present in Canada. Being abroad for an extended time, despite mail coming through to a Canadian address, is not maintaining presence. Every day outside of Canada while PR, even if on a short vacation, is an absence from Canada.

She will also, most likely, be requested to provide a PCC for the time she spent abroad.

Edited to add:
IRCC contacts CBSA for travel records. If her Canadian exit and entry stamps do not match up with her addresses she could end up being stamped with misrepresentation, deported, stripped of her PR, and banned from re-entry for 5 years. That’s a worst case scenario.
 

AtlanticCat

Full Member
Oct 18, 2018
41
1
Mate, you're confusing residency with physical presence. Please read my original post, and there's no misrepresentation.
Also, you can have a permanent address in Canada, and go around the world for years jumping from one country to the other. Your permanent address is still Canada.
 

yyzstudent

Champion Member
Nov 6, 2015
1,334
702
Mate, you're confusing residency with physical presence. Please read my original post, and there's no misrepresentation.
Also, you can have a permanent address in Canada, and go around the world for years jumping from one country to the other. Your permanent address is still Canada.
Not at all confusing it.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,297
3,062
I became a PR in late 2018. my Soft landing and the actual move which happened in mid 2020, I remained in my home country working and living. I did some short vacations and business trips from and back to my home country. Max. trip length was 2 weeks, where should I report these trips when applying for citizenship?
First and foremost, and for emphasis, above all . . . follow the instructions. When in doubt, follow the instructions; otherwise, yep, follow the instructions.

This includes instructions attendant completing the online physical presence calculation where "trips" outside Canada are reported, precisely to the day of exit from Canada, and precisely to the day of entry into Canada, for the five year period (the "eligibility period") preceding the day the application is signed/made.

The instructions for reporting travel history are not at all complicated. Report date of exit from Canada. Report date of entry into Canada. If more than one country, any country in addition to the "destination" country, was visited during a trip outside Canada, those additional countries are listed in the box for reporting the reason or purpose of the trip (no need to specify particular dates for travel between countries while outside Canada, just list all those visited). Again, this is actually very clearly stated in the instructions (and if they change in the meantime, follow them, the changed instructions, not what anyone here says, including not following what I have said).


Another question please, my spouse spent one year overseas due to personal reasons taking care of a family member in our home country. I was still in Canada working and our permanent address didn't change here in Canada. Should I put her address in our home country in the address history or list the one in Canada. She paid taxes for that year here in Canada as she was resident for tax purposes too. We will list this year in the activity/work form but I wasn't sure which address to put in the address form.
Somewhat Short Answer:

IRCC is asking for ALL the addresses where the applicant was living during the five year eligibility period. NOT just the applicant's official or permanent address. Not just the address an applicant maintains as their primary residential address.

Staying at a location for months, let alone many months or a year, will generally mean that is where the individual was living during that period of time. Shouldn't be all that hard to recognize that reporting that address, and the dates living there, is the honest disclosure of information IRCC requests. And otherwise, as @yyzstudent pointed out, there is going to be a rather glaring discrepancy between the applicant's address history and travel history if the applicant reports residing at an address in Canada during a period of several months, let alone a year, when the travel history shows they were not even in Canada during that time.

Further, Longer Observations:

Transitory and Incidental Stays:


Transitory and incidental stays are easily distinguishable. EASILY. Protests to the contrary are clearly disingenuous, at best.

While the instructions clearly state that reporting address history should not include stays at hotels or resorts while on vacation, for example, that is more or less stating what should be very much obvious. Sure, there are some who demand such things be spelled out; their motives appear to be questionable. No advanced degrees in sociology necessary to distinguish brief stays from places where one is residing (living) for a period of time (no matter where one maintains their primary residential address).

So, let's be honest, IRCC wants an honest answer. Where have you been living. Yeah, sometimes that can be a personal judgment call, a close case. If a university professor spends much of the summer in a rental cottage, is that a vacation-stay or a summer residence? If the stay is for six weeks is that different than one for nine weeks? The former, representing a summer vacation, that need not be listed in address history? While the latter should be listed as a summer residence?

IRCC is NOT so picky; it will NOT make a big deal either way. Unless and until it appears the PR-applicant is not being honest and forthcoming. In particular, IRCC is not going to make an issue if the applicant lists the former (the six week stay) in address history. IRCC is not likely to make an issue if the applicant does not list the latter (the nine week stay) in address history. (Well, so long as all the other information is consistent and accurate; and especially dates of travel out of Canada are completely and accurately declared.)

The application is not a test. IRCC wants information to help it evaluate all the other relevant information. No technical expertise necessary. Honesty, yeah, very much necessary.

So how to know which way to answer? Give the best, most honest answer the applicant can, based on the applicant's honest, genuine understanding of the question.

But also try to look at things objectively, from the point of view of a total stranger bureaucrat. Which brings this back to the observations by @yyzstudent . . . yeah, the applicant who reports being outside Canada for a year but declares the address where they were living was in Canada that year . . . and the likelihood that raises red flags.

To be fair, if the address given is the PR's primary address, and the time abroad is completely and accurately declared, there is no misrepresentation. I differ a little from @yyzstudent regarding this aspect. (Also see further comments about misrepresentation in a citizenship application below.)

And perhaps this will not trigger any concerns let alone result in non-routine processing. But it could, and in particular it can indicate evasiveness or other reason for IRCC to more closely examine the applicant's credibility. By itself, very likely no problem at all. But in combination with any other concerns, the risk is the applicant's credibility is considered compromised and even if the worst of that is only some non-routine processing delays, look around, this forum is overflowing with tales of woe about processing delays.

Bottom-line: if the PR was staying at a location for more than a month, best approach is probably to list that address, subject to circumstances in which the applicant feels confident the better, more honest answer is to report that period of time under their primary or what they consider their permanent address.

For Clarity; Some Highlights From the Instructions:

Write ALL your addresses inside and outside Canada during the eligibility period
If you were residing, working or studying outside Canada, you must list all of your foreign addresses
You don’t need to include addresses of family, friends, hotels or resorts where you stayed while on vacation

Hint: "All addresses" except where the applicant stayed "while on vacation" (this emphasis included in the guide) rather clearly indicates not limited to what an individual considers their official or permanent or primary residential address.

More Re Misrepresentation:

This is a tangent, but probably worth clarifying. Misrepresentation in a citizenship application, if it is not connected to or derived from misrepresentation in the process of becoming a PR, does not make a PR inadmissible. The consequences for misrepresentations in a citizenship application are:

-- misrepresentation in applying for citizenship is a stand alone ground for denying the application. Section 22(1)(e.1) Citizenship Act. And if a citizenship application is denied for misrepresentation that will prohibit the PR from becoming a citizen for five years. Section 22(1)(e.2) Citizenship Act. See https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-29/page-5.html#docCont
-- if the individual becomes a citizen, a misrepresentation in applying for citizenship is grounds for revoking their citizenship. Section 10(1) Citizenship Act. See https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-29/page-3.html#h-81996 (they become a PR again)​

A PR is inadmissible for misrepresentation (thus subject to termination of PR status and deportation) for grounds set out in Section 40(1) IRPA. See https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/I-2.5/page-6.html#docCont Misrepresentation in making an application for citizenship is not grounds for PR inadmissibility.

Among grounds for which a PR may be determined inadmissible, is if they became a citizen and their citizenship is revoked for misrepresentation BUT only in the circumstances set out in Section 10.2 of the Citizenship Act, meaning it was for misrepresentation (or fraud or so on) in the process of obtaining PR status.

So, unraveling how this works is a little complicated, but if the PR legitimately obtained PR status, a misrepresentation in making an application for citizenship can be grounds to deny the citizenship application, or later grounds for revoking citizenship, but will not make them inadmissible and will not lead to deportation.
 
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AtlanticCat

Full Member
Oct 18, 2018
41
1
@dpenabill @yyzstudent

Thank you for your replies. What about the cases where I don't have an exact address where I stayed at for a few days or weeks?
For example I travelled for few days to two countries to attend business meetings, but the co-workers and people from the company don't have exact address details. They can only guess the hotel name where I stayed and the street name of the place where I stayed at.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,297
3,062
What about the cases where I don't have an exact address where I stayed at for a few days or weeks?
For example I travelled for few days to two countries to attend business meetings, but the co-workers and people from the company don't have exact address details. They can only guess the hotel name where I stayed and the street name of the place where I stayed at.
Addresses where you spent the night, or ten nights, or otherwise in transit, are not part of a person's residential address history.

I specifically referenced not listing addresses where the PR stayed on "vacation." OK, perhaps I should have also said (although my posts tend to be too long as is) to not list places stayed during business trips.

But I mostly did say the equivalent of that. I appreciate the thanks you offer for my response, but I am not sure you read it.

Quote:

Transitory and Incidental Stays:
Transitory and incidental stays are easily distinguishable. EASILY. Protests to the contrary are clearly disingenuous, at best.​
While the instructions clearly state that reporting address history should not include stays at hotels or resorts while on vacation, for example, that is more or less stating what should be very much obvious. Sure, there are some who demand such things be spelled out; their motives appear to be questionable. No advanced degrees in sociology necessary to distinguish brief stays from places where one is residing (living) for a period of time (no matter where one maintains their primary residential address).​

As I noted then, and quoted here, "the instructions clearly state that reporting address history should NOT include stays at hotels . . ."

So there is NO reason or need for anyone to try remembering or guessing "the hotel name where [you] stayed," whether for a holiday or "to attend business meetings."

Again, it is EASY to distinguish the location where a person is living, their residential or home address, versus places where one stays temporarily, in transit, while away from home. Sure, there are exceptions, but wrangling with them in this context would be a distraction, more confusing than helpful.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,297
3,062
This reason for the trip was business meetings, so it wasn't a vacation. That's why I'm mentioning it
The precise reason for staying in a particular location does not change whether the stay itself is transitory, an away from home stay.

"Vacation" is merely an illustrative example, just one example among many examples of a transitory stay away from home. Which, frankly, is obvious. It is a good example because it is an obvious, unambiguous illustration of what makes the difference.

Reporting where you "live" is not complicated (with some exceptions not worth the distraction). Especially in terms of giving IRCC an honest answer.
 

Canadavisa92

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Dec 21, 2018
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The precise reason for staying in a particular location does not change whether the stay itself is transitory, an away from home stay.

"Vacation" is merely an illustrative example, just one example among many examples of a transitory stay away from home. Which, frankly, is obvious. It is a good example because it is an obvious, unambiguous illustration of what makes the difference.

Reporting where you "live" is not complicated (with some exceptions not worth the distraction). Especially in terms of giving IRCC an honest answer.
Hi dpenabill

I apologise for hijacking this post but I wanted some advice on address history too
I softlanded five years ago and stayed in an airbnb for 18 days however used a permanent address of a family friend to send the PR card to and also used that same permanent address to file my taxes as a non resident for that year
In the address history which address should I use? The airbnb, the permanent address or my address back home where I soft landed from? Given that the airbnb address was not used in any official form while the other permanent address was.