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Residency obligation

Ngopal2504

Newbie
Dec 12, 2013
5
0
My family member, who had stayed in Canada only for few days after landing, was questioned by CBSA officer while she was entering to Canada recently just before few days ago of the expiry of PR card and subsequently issued a removal order. I understand that now we have to go for appeal. I have following questions.
1. Do we need a lawyer even to file an appeal ?
2. Can we not higher a lawyer at later date? If so, how to inform IAD about that?
3. If we send the appeal notice to Montreal considering that the hearing procedure to happen at Montreal and later if we want to change it to Toronto, is it possible and if so how to do that?
4. The officer has asked for the names of family members staying canada and she missed to report the name of the one of the blood relation family member staying in Canada. What could happen ?
5. Most of the family members also has the similar problem of not meeting the residency obligations and their names are appearing in the officers interview documents. What could happen ? Will she be questioned for their status? and if so, will there be any problem to the family members?
6. Due to the concern mentioned in 5 above, will there be any impact on her case on H&C ground?
Thanks in advance.
 

canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
52,959
12,759
My family member, who had stayed in Canada only for few days after landing, was questioned by CBSA officer while she was entering to Canada recently just before few days ago of the expiry of PR card and subsequently issued a removal order. I understand that now we have to go for appeal. I have following questions.
1. Do we need a lawyer even to file an appeal ?
2. Can we not higher a lawyer at later date? If so, how to inform IAD about that?
3. If we send the appeal notice to Montreal considering that the hearing procedure to happen at Montreal and later if we want to change it to Toronto, is it possible and if so how to do that?
4. The officer has asked for the names of family members staying canada and she missed to report the name of the one of the blood relation family member staying in Canada. What could happen ?
5. Most of the family members also has the similar problem of not meeting the residency obligations and their names are appearing in the officers interview documents. What could happen ? Will she be questioned for their status? and if so, will there be any problem to the family members?
6. Due to the concern mentioned in 5 above, will there be any impact on her case on H&C ground?
Thanks in advance.
Was there a good reason for not meeting their RO like serious illness for the 5 years with no other family members to care for the person? You would need documentation to back up any claim. CIC has all the information about their family members so they should correct their error. Yes if all the family didn’t comply with their RO they could all be in trouble especially if we are talking children or spouses of a parent being reported. When did the others arrive? If you are trying to save your PRs you should be hiring a lawyer. There is still no guarantee you will keep your PR. 2 years out of 5 years was a very lenient RO to begin with. Based on your previous posts your family landed I. July 2014 and stayed for a month. They needed to meet the 2 years by August 2019.
 
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Ngopal2504

Newbie
Dec 12, 2013
5
0
Was there a good reason for not meeting their RO like serious illness for the 5 years with no other family members to care for the person? You would need documentation to back up any claim. CIC has all the information about their family members so they should correct their error. Yes if all the family didn’t comply with their RO they could all be in trouble especially if we are talking children or spouses of a parent being reported. When did the others arrive? If you are trying to save your PRs you should be hiring a lawyer. There is still no guarantee you will keep your PR. 2 years out of 5 years was a very lenient RO to begin with. Based on your previous posts your family landed I. July 2014 and stayed for a month. They needed to meet the 2 years by August 2019.
Thank you. Any suggestion for Ottawa.
 

canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
52,959
12,759
Would also mention that you got incorrect advice 2 years ago. A spouse must be compliant with their RO to sponsor a spouse. The PR must also remain in Canada during the sponsorship.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,252
3,018
My family member, who had stayed in Canada only for few days after landing, was questioned by CBSA officer while she was entering to Canada recently just before few days ago of the expiry of PR card and subsequently issued a removal order. I understand that now we have to go for appeal. I have following questions.
1. Do we need a lawyer even to file an appeal ?
2. Can we not higher a lawyer at later date? If so, how to inform IAD about that?
3. If we send the appeal notice to Montreal considering that the hearing procedure to happen at Montreal and later if we want to change it to Toronto, is it possible and if so how to do that?
4. The officer has asked for the names of family members staying canada and she missed to report the name of the one of the blood relation family member staying in Canada. What could happen ?
5. Most of the family members also has the similar problem of not meeting the residency obligations and their names are appearing in the officers interview documents. What could happen ? Will she be questioned for their status? and if so, will there be any problem to the family members?
6. Due to the concern mentioned in 5 above, will there be any impact on her case on H&C ground?
Thanks in advance.
1. Do we need a lawyer even to file an appeal ?
2. Can we not higher a lawyer at later date? If so, how to inform IAD about that?

It is helpful to have a lawyer. Some people need a lawyer more than others. For a procedure like this, many will handle it without a lawyer. But at the least a lawyer can help the PR understand what the case is really about, and learn what facts and circumstances are important, and thus help the PR better prepare for the IAD hearing.

It may be prudent to pay for a comprehensive consultation before actually hiring a lawyer. (One thing to consider, after all, is whether the chances of winning the appeal are good enough to justify spending thousands of dollars to hire a lawyer.)

It is not necessary to obtain a lawyer right away. The appeal can be filed and a lawyer hired later. Filing the appeal soon and then finding a lawyer is probably how most PRs in this situation handle it. However, better to not wait very long to hire a lawyer.

Whether or not to actually hire a lawyer is a very personal decision. Canadian lawyers are expensive. A consultation should only cost $300 to $600. Do not bother with supposed "free" consultations (they are only worth what you pay for, and often are more about soliciting clients). You want a real, informed opinion.


3. If we send the appeal notice to Montreal considering that the hearing procedure to happen at Montreal and later if we want to change it to Toronto, is it possible and if so how to do that?

To file the appeal, FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS in the paperwork the Reported PR received.

Beyond that, I am not familiar with procedures regarding place where IAD panel hearing will actually take place. This is the sort of thing a lawyer can better explain or provide help.


4. The officer has asked for the names of family members staying canada and she missed to report the name of the one of the blood relation family member staying in Canada. What could happen ?
5. Most of the family members also has the similar problem of not meeting the residency obligations and their names are appearing in the officers interview documents. What could happen ? Will she be questioned for their status? and if so, will there be any problem to the family members?
6. Due to the concern mentioned in 5 above, will there be any impact on her case on H&C ground?

I am not clear what these questions are really about.

Family members IN Canada who were NOT issued a 44(1) Report at the PoE when they returned to Canada probably have little or nothing to worry about EVEN IF they are NOT currently in compliance with the PR Residency Obligation. BUT this is dependent on them NOT leaving Canada until AFTER they have been in Canada long enough to be in compliance with the RO. AND on them NOT making any application to IRCC, such as for a new PR card, or to sponsor another family member, until AFTER they have been in Canada long enough to be in compliance with the RO.

Family member OUTSIDE Canada who are NOT in compliance with the RO appear to be flagged and will likely be Reported upon arrival at a PoE or denied any application for a PR Travel Document.

I cannot know what the PoE officer's questions were really about, BUT it is likely that the questions about the family members in Canada were part of the H&C analysis . . . if most of the PR's family is living in Canada, and the PR is arriving to come to stay in Canada, that is a fairly good H&C factor in the PR's favour. That is, it is not likely the officer was probing information about family members in order to investigate them. It is more likely the officer was looking for information that could help her.

Obviously, the failure to provide complete truthful answers can be considered misrepresentation, but the failure to name all family members currently in Canada is probably no big deal . . . and again, my sense is the question was more for the PR's benefit and thus failing to name a family member should be no more than an oversight of no import.

Also note, if the PR has a lot of family presence in Canada, that can really help in the appeal . . . but the weight of this factor can depend a lot on the PR STAYING in Canada pending the appeal.
 

gta88

Hero Member
Jun 30, 2018
575
40
1. Do we need a lawyer even to file an appeal ?
2. Can we not higher a lawyer at later date? If so, how to inform IAD about that?

It is helpful to have a lawyer. Some people need a lawyer more than others. For a procedure like this, many will handle it without a lawyer. But at the least a lawyer can help the PR understand what the case is really about, and learn what facts and circumstances are important, and thus help the PR better prepare for the IAD hearing.

It may be prudent to pay for a comprehensive consultation before actually hiring a lawyer. (One thing to consider, after all, is whether the chances of winning the appeal are good enough to justify spending thousands of dollars to hire a lawyer.)

It is not necessary to obtain a lawyer right away. The appeal can be filed and a lawyer hired later. Filing the appeal soon and then finding a lawyer is probably how most PRs in this situation handle it. However, better to not wait very long to hire a lawyer.

Whether or not to actually hire a lawyer is a very personal decision. Canadian lawyers are expensive. A consultation should only cost $300 to $600. Do not bother with supposed "free" consultations (they are only worth what you pay for, and often are more about soliciting clients). You want a real, informed opinion.


3. If we send the appeal notice to Montreal considering that the hearing procedure to happen at Montreal and later if we want to change it to Toronto, is it possible and if so how to do that?

To file the appeal, FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS in the paperwork the Reported PR received.

Beyond that, I am not familiar with procedures regarding place where IAD panel hearing will actually take place. This is the sort of thing a lawyer can better explain or provide help.


4. The officer has asked for the names of family members staying canada and she missed to report the name of the one of the blood relation family member staying in Canada. What could happen ?
5. Most of the family members also has the similar problem of not meeting the residency obligations and their names are appearing in the officers interview documents. What could happen ? Will she be questioned for their status? and if so, will there be any problem to the family members?
6. Due to the concern mentioned in 5 above, will there be any impact on her case on H&C ground?

I am not clear what these questions are really about.

Family members IN Canada who were NOT issued a 44(1) Report at the PoE when they returned to Canada probably have little or nothing to worry about EVEN IF they are NOT currently in compliance with the PR Residency Obligation. BUT this is dependent on them NOT leaving Canada until AFTER they have been in Canada long enough to be in compliance with the RO. AND on them NOT making any application to IRCC, such as for a new PR card, or to sponsor another family member, until AFTER they have been in Canada long enough to be in compliance with the RO.

Family member OUTSIDE Canada who are NOT in compliance with the RO appear to be flagged and will likely be Reported upon arrival at a PoE or denied any application for a PR Travel Document.

I cannot know what the PoE officer's questions were really about, BUT it is likely that the questions about the family members in Canada were part of the H&C analysis . . . if most of the PR's family is living in Canada, and the PR is arriving to come to stay in Canada, that is a fairly good H&C factor in the PR's favour. That is, it is not likely the officer was probing information about family members in order to investigate them. It is more likely the officer was looking for information that could help her.

Obviously, the failure to provide complete truthful answers can be considered misrepresentation, but the failure to name all family members currently in Canada is probably no big deal . . . and again, my sense is the question was more for the PR's benefit and thus failing to name a family member should be no more than an oversight of no import.

Also note, if the PR has a lot of family presence in Canada, that can really help in the appeal . . . but the weight of this factor can depend a lot on the PR STAYING in Canada pending the appeal.
@dpenabill
I understood the following after reading your multiple posts on RO and PR Card expiry -
If the person shows up at the POE with an expired PR Card OR 'active PR card without fulfilling the Residency Obligation', he/she is at the mercy of border agent. If the person is not questioned in the case of active/valid PR card (without RO being met), then the person can enter Canada and stay for 2 years before applying for a new PR Card, correct?
If yes, my question is -
1) If the person's overseas wife is willing to applying for a TRV (study visa / visitor visa) so that she can study in /visit Canada, then would that trigger an investigation into RO of the husband who has been allowed to come to Canada AND has not yet applied as well issued a new PR card?

2) Does the person's application for a Driver's license and government health insurance trigger an investigation into RO of the person in any way if he is allowed to enter Canada?

Thank you in advance.
 

canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
52,959
12,759
@dpenabill
I understood the following after reading your multiple posts on RO and PR Card expiry -
If the person shows up at the POE with an expired PR Card OR 'active PR card without fulfilling the Residency Obligation', he/she is at the mercy of border agent. If the person is not questioned in the case of active/valid PR card (without RO being met), then the person can enter Canada and stay for 2 years before applying for a new PR Card, correct?
If yes, my question is -
1) If the person's overseas wife is willing to applying for a TRV (study visa / visitor visa) so that she can study in /visit Canada, then would that trigger an investigation into RO of the husband who has been allowed to come to Canada AND has not yet applied as well issued a new PR card?

2) Does the person's application for a Driver's license and government health insurance trigger an investigation into RO of the person in any way if he is allowed to enter Canada?

Thank you in advance.
1. No it shouldn’t trigger an investigation. A spouse of a PR will have an very hard time getting a study permit or TRV.

2. You may not be able to renew your health card without a valid PR card.
 

gta88

Hero Member
Jun 30, 2018
575
40
1. No it shouldn’t trigger an investigation. A spouse of a PR will have an very hard time getting a study permit or TRV.

2. You may not be able to renew your health card without a valid PR card.
Thank you @canuck78
One more question-
Since the person cannot sponsor his wife until he satisfies RO and gets a new PR card, can his overseas wife apply for her express entry application on her own?
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,252
3,018
@dpenabill
I understood the following after reading your multiple posts on RO and PR Card expiry -
If the person shows up at the POE with an expired PR Card OR 'active PR card without fulfilling the Residency Obligation', he/she is at the mercy of border agent. If the person is not questioned in the case of active/valid PR card (without RO being met), then the person can enter Canada and stay for 2 years before applying for a new PR Card, correct?
If yes, my question is -
1) If the person's overseas wife is willing to applying for a TRV (study visa / visitor visa) so that she can study in /visit Canada, then would that trigger an investigation into RO of the husband who has been allowed to come to Canada AND has not yet applied as well issued a new PR card?

2) Does the person's application for a Driver's license and government health insurance trigger an investigation into RO of the person in any way if he is allowed to enter Canada?

Thank you in advance.
REMINDER: I am NOT an expert and I am NOT qualified to offer personal advice.

Nonetheless, question 2 is easy: No, applications for provincial licensing or benefits do not trigger an investigation into a PR's compliance with the RO. Individuals will ordinarily need to present proof of status to reside in Canada, so this can pose a problem for PRs who do not have a current or at least a somewhat recently expired PR card (what needs to be presented varies from province to province).

Remember, the failure to comply with the RO is NOT about doing anything wrong. Neither CBSA nor IRCC will go searching for PRs who have failed to comply with the RO.

That noted, both have a mandate, a duty, to enforce immigration laws and rules, like the PR Residency Obligation. Thus, if and when there is a transaction with either of them that depends on verifying the individual's admissibility as a PR, they will examine the PR for RO compliance if it appears that may be in issue, and investigate further if the initial examination triggers a more formal Residency Determination.

Applying for provincial licensing or benefits does NOT involve any transaction with either CBSA or IRCC.


For Question # 1:
"If the person's overseas wife is willing to applying for a TRV (study visa / visitor visa) so that she can study in /visit Canada, then would that trigger an investigation into RO of the husband who has been allowed to come to Canada AND has not yet applied as well issued a new PR card?"​

Since the PR is NOT a direct applicant in this, my understanding is this is NOT likely to trigger a review of the PR's admissibility. So, similarly, no, it will not trigger an investigation into RO compliance.

Other forum participants pay more attention than I do to matters related to applications for temporary resident status, and should be able to offer more information or insight regarding TRVs and such.


Some further observations:
When a PR in breach of the RO "shows up at the POE . . . [the PR] is at the mercy of border agent."​

I wince a bit in regards to the use of the word "mercy" here. The PR is actually far more at the mercy of the facts to that point, many of which the PR no longer has control over but which are largely facts rooted in the PR's past decisions and actions. Especially the fact about how much in breach of the RO the PR is.

CBSA officers are merely charged with the duty of enforcing the rules. Most indications are that neither CBSA nor IRCC play gotcha games.

Suggesting that PRs in breach of the RO are at the "mercy" of officers when arriving at a PoE is a bit like saying someone driving 160k on the 401 is at the mercy of law enforcement engaged in traffic enforcement. With more similarities than many might apprehend. Big difference, for example, between driving 120k, even though that is significantly above the speed limit, and driving 150k or 160k. Big difference, as well, between going 140k and gaining on a law enforcement vehicle in front of you, and slowing down, versus keeping it at 140k and blowing on by the officer's car. Other factors can very much influence whether the driving pattern will precipitate a traffic stop and being issued a ticket. Is the highway slippery? Is the driver weaving in and out of traffic? Or did the driver otherwise engage in a risky maneuver catching the officer's attention?

PRs who have failed to comply with the RO do not all face the same risks when they arrive at a PoE. And while different officers will vary in terms of their approach, including some more aggressive than others, the facts and circumstances in the individual PR's case will have a big influence on how things go.

Mapping particular factors to how they influence things gets complicated, and can tend toward the highly speculative, but as I often repeat here, the TWO BIG FACTORS are obvious and tend to have much more influence than other factors. They are, again:
-- How much in breach (thus, the sooner the PR gets to Canada, the better)​
-- CREDIBILITY, CREDIBILITY, CREDIBILITY!​

Of course there are other factors which can loom large in particular cases. PRs regularly coming and going are less likely to attract elevated scrutiny of RO compliance when going through a PoE. PRs who are returning after a particularly lengthy absence are more likely to attract elevated scrutiny of RO compliance. A PR who is returning to Canada after a three year absence is OBVIOUSLY in breach (unless the PR can show one of the credits for time abroad). Among others.
 

canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
52,959
12,759
Thank you @canuck78
One more question-
Since the person cannot sponsor his wife until he satisfies RO and gets a new PR card, can his overseas wife apply for her express entry application on her own?
Yes. Probably your best option or be separated. If you have a CRS over 470 you mY want to renounce your PR and both reapply unless you have already been able to enter without being reported.
 

gta88

Hero Member
Jun 30, 2018
575
40
Yes. Probably your best option or be separated. If you have a CRS over 470 you mY want to renounce your PR and both reapply unless you have already been able to enter without being reported.
Thanks. But wouldn't CIC ask why is the wife applying separately through EE instead of being sponsored by a PR and subsequently look into his RO?
 

gta88

Hero Member
Jun 30, 2018
575
40
REMINDER: I am NOT an expert and I am NOT qualified to offer personal advice.

Nonetheless, question 2 is easy: No, applications for provincial licensing or benefits do not trigger an investigation into a PR's compliance with the RO. Individuals will ordinarily need to present proof of status to reside in Canada, so this can pose a problem for PRs who do not have a current or at least a somewhat recently expired PR card (what needs to be presented varies from province to province).

Remember, the failure to comply with the RO is NOT about doing anything wrong. Neither CBSA nor IRCC will go searching for PRs who have failed to comply with the RO.

That noted, both have a mandate, a duty, to enforce immigration laws and rules, like the PR Residency Obligation. Thus, if and when there is a transaction with either of them that depends on verifying the individual's admissibility as a PR, they will examine the PR for RO compliance if it appears that may be in issue, and investigate further if the initial examination triggers a more formal Residency Determination.

Applying for provincial licensing or benefits does NOT involve any transaction with either CBSA or IRCC.


For Question # 1:
"If the person's overseas wife is willing to applying for a TRV (study visa / visitor visa) so that she can study in /visit Canada, then would that trigger an investigation into RO of the husband who has been allowed to come to Canada AND has not yet applied as well issued a new PR card?"​

Since the PR is NOT a direct applicant in this, my understanding is this is NOT likely to trigger a review of the PR's admissibility. So, similarly, no, it will not trigger an investigation into RO compliance.

Other forum participants pay more attention than I do to matters related to applications for temporary resident status, and should be able to offer more information or insight regarding TRVs and such.


Some further observations:
When a PR in breach of the RO "shows up at the POE . . . [the PR] is at the mercy of border agent."​

I wince a bit in regards to the use of the word "mercy" here. The PR is actually far more at the mercy of the facts to that point, many of which the PR no longer has control over but which are largely facts rooted in the PR's past decisions and actions. Especially the fact about how much in breach of the RO the PR is.

CBSA officers are merely charged with the duty of enforcing the rules. Most indications are that neither CBSA nor IRCC play gotcha games.

Suggesting that PRs in breach of the RO are at the "mercy" of officers when arriving at a PoE is a bit like saying someone driving 160k on the 401 is at the mercy of law enforcement engaged in traffic enforcement. With more similarities than many might apprehend. Big difference, for example, between driving 120k, even though that is significantly above the speed limit, and driving 150k or 160k. Big difference, as well, between going 140k and gaining on a law enforcement vehicle in front of you, and slowing down, versus keeping it at 140k and blowing on by the officer's car. Other factors can very much influence whether the driving pattern will precipitate a traffic stop and being issued a ticket. Is the highway slippery? Is the driver weaving in and out of traffic? Or did the driver otherwise engage in a risky maneuver catching the officer's attention?

PRs who have failed to comply with the RO do not all face the same risks when they arrive at a PoE. And while different officers will vary in terms of their approach, including some more aggressive than others, the facts and circumstances in the individual PR's case will have a big influence on how things go.

Mapping particular factors to how they influence things gets complicated, and can tend toward the highly speculative, but as I often repeat here, the TWO BIG FACTORS are obvious and tend to have much more influence than other factors. They are, again:
-- How much in breach (thus, the sooner the PR gets to Canada, the better)​
-- CREDIBILITY, CREDIBILITY, CREDIBILITY!​

Of course there are other factors which can loom large in particular cases. PRs regularly coming and going are less likely to attract elevated scrutiny of RO compliance when going through a PoE. PRs who are returning after a particularly lengthy absence are more likely to attract elevated scrutiny of RO compliance. A PR who is returning to Canada after a three year absence is OBVIOUSLY in breach (unless the PR can show one of the credits for time abroad). Among others.
Appreciate the response. Thank you very much!