+1(514) 937-9445 or Toll-free (Canada & US) +1 (888) 947-9445

Really confused, dual intent, inland-outland!??? pls help!

CanGuate

Star Member
Jul 2, 2010
63
1
Hey Guys,
Still kinda new and getting ready to submit application soon just looking for adivce.

I am Canadian, hubby to be is Guatemalan we have applied for visit visa for Dec and awaiting a response (my parents invited him not me so his chance are better of getting the visa, when i called immigration info they said do this is dual intent, bringing him here for christmas as a visitor and marrying him in january and applying before February for PR, is this true?

If we get him here as a visitor is it ok to marry him and apply or have I committed dual intent? and get deported like the guy on the phone said...

Also if we can get him here should we apply inland or outland, this question is especially for the Guatemalan applicants. (after all it shows wait times for Guate is 18mths)....

Some advice for us newbies would be helpful I hope we haven't done anything wrong by not mentioning me in the application for visit visa, or the fact we plan to marry and have our baby....

The guy on the phone really freaked me out he told me that we would get deported if we did this (visit, marry, apply).... should we really follow his advice and go to the canadian embassy in guatemala and tell them he wants to visit canada so he can marry me????

Thx everyone in advance!http://www.simplemachines.org/about/copyright.php
 

RobsLuv

Champion Member
Jul 14, 2008
1,838
127
123
Ontario
Category........
Visa Office......
Buffalo
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
Original:14Mar2007; Reprocess began after appeal:26Apr2010
Doc's Request.
Original:9May'07; Reprocess:7May'10
AOR Received.
Original:28Apr'07; Reprocess:26Apr'10
File Transfer...
n/a
Med's Request
Reprocessing:7May2010
Med's Done....
Jun2010
Interview........
n/a
Passport Req..
30Nov2010!!
VISA ISSUED...
31Dec2010!!
LANDED..........
31Jan2011
You don't understand what "dual intent" means - you don't "commit" dual intent as a bad thing. What it means is that someone who is applying to enter the country temporarily usually needs to prove that they intend to go home again . . . so someone applying for permanent status might be found ineligible for temporary status as a result. "Dual intent" provides that just because someone has submitted a permanent residence application doesn't mean they won't go home at the end of their authorized temporary stay . . . so it doesn't preclude them from being considered a genuine temporary resident. That said, if he says he wants to come to Canada so that he can marry you - they'll likely refuse his temporary status application. He has to have a better reason than that to get into the country, and he will have to demonstrate that he at least intends to go home again. It won't make a lot of sense, it's just the game that has to be played. But the guy telling you that they'll deport him if he comes here and then marries you and applies for PR is lying. He will not be deported as long as you guys play by the rules: submit an application for his permanent residence and make sure that he either leaves Canada at the end of his authorized stay (apply outland for PR), or he submits an application to extend his temporary status based on your marriage and the PR ap on file (this is where dual intent comes in) and you apply inland.

So, if he is admitted to Canada as a visitor prior to your marriage, yes, you can marry in Canada while he's here and then submit an application for his permanent residence. You can apply either inland or outland. Guatemala has pretty long processing times - comparable to an inland application - so, unless it's a financial concern for him not to work or you want to preserve your right of appeal, the inland application option might work for you. If he wants to remain in Canada while the application is processing, you would apply "inland", AND include an Application to Extend/Change Conditions WITH the inland PR ap. This package must be received by the Case Processing Centre in Vegreville PRIOR TO expiration of the status he was originally given. Include proof of that status, and track the mailing of the application so that you can prove that it was received before his temporary status expired. Doing this gives him "implied status" to remain in Canada legally until they finish his assessment for first stage approval (8-9 months after they receive the applications). If he receives first stage approval they'll issue a new temporary status document. If he opted for an "initial work permit" on the Extension application (and paid the appropriate fee - $150) they will automatically issue him an open work permit after first stage approval. After first stage approval it takes another 4-10 months or so to finalize the application. In the meantime, with the OWP, he's allowed to work and, in some Provinces, have healthcare.

The other option is for him to go back to Guatemala and wait out processing at the embassy there. It all, really, depends on whether he is willing/able to stay in Canada without working and without healthcare for the 8-9 months (best case scenario) that it will take to get to first stage approval . . . and that's if you are ready to submit the application as soon as you marry. It could be up to a year or more before he actually gets an OWP - and that can be quite stressful on a new marriage.
 

CanGuate

Star Member
Jul 2, 2010
63
1
Wow! Thank you so much for your reply you have really helped!
I think I am still confused on the dual intent, how do we prove and where do we prove that he intends to leave when his temporary status expires.

We have talked and if we are asked to leave Canada or he has no status here we will return to Guatemala to work in call centers until we are able to return to Canada. But just saying and knowing that ourselves isn't helpful. He has just bought land because we plan on building a home for yearly visits after he is Canadian... we also can get a letter from a lawyer saying he "takes care of" his mother, but again who sees this?

We are going to apply inland because as mentioned the wait times are comparable, and we need him working as soon as possible. We can handle the no health care and will have to deal with one income, but our baby is coming Feb 3 so that becomes a new twist one of us needs to take care of her, and as I am the only one who can work for money as I am canadian its now my job until his work permit goes through some 9 months later! (yup we pray for the strength to handle all of this)

I'm not sure if i should stat a new thread but I also confused about the application, we intend to apply inland with which we would submit the open work permit. Do we also then need to submit an extension or something to get him applied status?

Thank you so much for your help guys, being new to all this is hard ! :)

In conclusion
1) if dual intent is about intentions how and where do we make it clear that should his status to leagally remain in canada not be active we would leave together?
2) if we submit inland what else do we submit besides the application for PR and the Open work permit?
 

RobsLuv

Champion Member
Jul 14, 2008
1,838
127
123
Ontario
Category........
Visa Office......
Buffalo
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
Original:14Mar2007; Reprocess began after appeal:26Apr2010
Doc's Request.
Original:9May'07; Reprocess:7May'10
AOR Received.
Original:28Apr'07; Reprocess:26Apr'10
File Transfer...
n/a
Med's Request
Reprocessing:7May2010
Med's Done....
Jun2010
Interview........
n/a
Passport Req..
30Nov2010!!
VISA ISSUED...
31Dec2010!!
LANDED..........
31Jan2011
OK, don't focus so much on proving "dual intent" . . . it's ambiguous, at best, anyway and it's really not the main issue. The first step, and the thing to focus on doing properly at this point, is getting him to Canada in the first place. Because he is non-visa-exempt, getting him a visitor visa is not going to be easy. If you accomplish that, the rest will fall into place. So we'll deal with the TRV (Temporary Resident Visa) first.

Now, I have no personal experience with this part because I'm visa-exempt, so if you're going to post another thread, you'll want to ask what types of evidences people have submitted to be successful in showing that they intended to return home after a visit to Canada. When he's applying for the visit visa, "dual intent" does not come into it - he will absolutely NOT want to provide evidences of, or even say anything about how, "should his status to legally remain in canada not be active, we would leave together". That brings you into the scenario and that's absolutely the last thing he wants to do. He can't mention you, he can't mention the baby, he can't mention the property - none of it. All of those things go towards proving that he has reason to stay in Canada - not leave!! It has to be approached from a mindset of showing that there is nothing significant to visiting Canada - in order to get a visit visa, he is not looking to prove he has significant, important reasons for wanting to come here, like a child on the way! Does that make sense? He has to have a valid temporary reason for visiting that has nothing to do with his future plans with you, and he has to prove he will go home again through proof of ties to home - things like a job at home, lease/rent/property agreement at home, his ailing mother, etc. He needs to show that he has responsibilities at home to return to, or they'll never let him come . . . especially if they're led to understand that he has responsibilities here in Canada!

If he is successful in getting a TRV, once he's in Canada and you're married you'll apply to sponsor him for permanent residence. That will allow him to stay in Canada for good - no "yearly visits" necessary. You will need to get married and get the PR application submitted BEFORE the date that his TRV expires. Along with the inland PR application, you'll include the OWP/extension application (dual purpose ap: it applies to extend his status, giving him "implied status" until a decision is made, and it requests a change of his conditions to worker once he's assessed as an eligible spousal PR applicant). This effectively extends his TRV until they complete the first stage of assessment of the PR ap. When you're including the extension/OWP application with an inland PR ap, there is no proof needed of "dual intent". Dual intent is assumed at that point, and if he is assessed during first stage as an eligible spousal PR applicant (through the proofs you submit with the PR application of your "genuine relationship", etc), there is no need to provide evidences of his intent to return home. By then it's obvious that he doesn't intend to return home or he wouldn't be applying for permanent status. Does that make sense? Once he is assessed as an eligible spousal PR applicant, they will extend his TRV with the Open Work Permit and that becomes his new temporary status - giving him the right to work - until the PR application is finalized, which takes anywhere from 3-9 more months.

So, for your concluding questions: first, "if dual intent is about intentions how and where do we make it clear that should his status to leagally remain in canada not be active we would leave together?" You DON'T. First he has to apply for his initial TRV, and "dual intent" is NOT part of that process. Getting the initial TRV cannot be about you - so dual intent does not factor in. He has to prove - initially - that he will leave at the end of his authorized stay. If this isn't clicking, please - ask again, because this is a vital mindset to understand before he applies to come to Canada in the first place.

Secondly: "if we submit inland (PR application) what else do we submit besides the application for PR and the Open work permit?" You need to read through the application forms and the application guide very carefully so that you are able to submit an application that will process smoothly. He will need to undergo a medical examination by a Dr who is certified by CIC to do them, but this can be done within Canada once he arrives. The medical examination is valid for one year, and you submit proof with the inland PR ap that the examination was done. He also needs to submit police clearances from every country he has lived in for six months or more since turning 18 years of age. These clearances will show that he has never been arrested (if he has been arrested, he is inadmissible to Canada and you need to stop now and get that dealt with first, before you go any further). My suggestion is that he get the police clearances in process before he leaves for Canada (it could prove difficult to get them once he's in Canada because they come from the law enforcement authority in his country). Something to keep in mind is the timing of the clearances - they are valid for six months, but they should be no older than 3 months old when the originals are submitted with the PR application. It would probably be most expedient for him to get them requested as soon as he knows he's been approved for his TRV, and then leave for Canada immediately after he receives them, to give you the most amount of time after he arrives to accomplish the rest of what you have to do in order to submit the PR application. He could also have a family member receive them for him and send them to Canada by secure transit - but if they're lost, it's going to be really difficult to get them done again. The reason for that is, and something to keep in mind about the inland PR application process: he can't leave Canada once that inland PR ap is submitted . . . because once he's married to you, he won't get another TRV to come back. So this is the one shot at being able to stay with you in Canada while awaiting permanent status. If he leaves Canada while the inland PR application is in process - for any reason - and he is not given another TRV to come back, the inland ap is forfeited and you have to start all over again with an outland ap while he waits at home.

I know this is a lot to absorb, and it's confusing, but try to focus first on the overall picture - not the details like proving "dual intent", and it will start to make more sense. And, with all due respect, don't count on agents of CIC to give you information that makes sense or that is in the best interest of your foreign national. Experience has proven time and time again that they either don't really know what they're talking about, or they provide information (like what the guy told you about dual intent) that's confusing and incomplete, or they intentionally try to mislead. It's best to come to discussions like this one where people who are going through the same process can give you information learned through personal experience. We also have access to the processing manuals and several here have read through those and have been able to piece together how all of this is supposed to work. Unfortunately, again - it's been proven out - that people at CIC will just not take the time to walk you through all that.
 

CanGuate

Star Member
Jul 2, 2010
63
1
Hi Thx for such a great and lengthy reply its great to get advice here

I am clear about the initial TRV not being about me because he probably won't get the visa if I am mentioned. He has extremely strong ties to Guatemala and so I think we will get the visa we applied last week... the problem lies in his application he talked about how he wants to visit canada for christmas and to see his relatives and old friends (he was here last year studying for 5 months). Immigration help line said that if he didn't mention me in the TRV application then he gets here and we get married and apply inland we have committed dual intent. He intended to come here to visit and marry, because he only applied on the premise of coming to visit.... They also said that him failing to mention me in the initial application for visit and not mentioning me at the border is grounds to refuse our inland application
I know everything is based on a gamble and which officer actually reads our PR case, but now I am questioning whether we should apply inland or outland. (Guatemala is just as long as a wait, but no chance of working... but if we apply and have committed dual intent which is grounds for deportation then we are no further ahead!, also I don't even know what my options are should our inland application be refused, there is no appeal does that mean that if we apply inland and we don't get it we not ever apply for him to be a PR of Canada?

I suspect this is Canada trying to be difficult, we seem to make it REALLY hard to get into Canada but staying as long as you follow the procedures jump through a million hoops and wait a thousand years you can stay. Canada seems to make it hard to get in, and easier to stay (provided you can stand to keep jumping, waiting and paying)

I'm sorry to keep dragging this out, I am confident in our ability to get his TRV I just am not sure what to do after I get him here as to avoiding problems and refusals..... We want to marry, apply and have our baby all by the end of January and I hate that I can't live the way we want because i need to think about how immigration will perceive us! Crazy..... not sure how to go about applying if we should now go outland application to avoid refusal or stick with my gut about going inland which might be faster for us and allows him to work 9 months after not 18!

Thanks for all your help we appreciate your advice! ps I agree the guys on the phone can sometimes be idiots and i think their main objective is to get you off the phone and not get you into Canada!