PR who is a PR for more than 5 years question !

[fotkifolkslove]

What are the chances of getting reported at POE?

I am a PR for more than 5 years. I became a PR in 2012 and met RO from 2012 to 2017 and applied for card renewal in June 2017. After applying I stayed in Canada for 3 months and left Canada. Now I am currently overseas. Let's say if they approve my card and once I receive the card I will return to Canada immediately. I had roughly 790 days in Canada from 2012 to 2017. Now since I left Canada the days moved from those window to a new one. and the days from 2012 don't count anymore which means I have less than 730 days in my new profile. 650 days as of today.

What are the chances of getting reported?
Also, Since I am very close to 730 days, Is there any chance of getting a 2nd chance and hopefully they pardon me and let me enter Canada without reporting me. Is this a possibility? Can this happen? Or are they really strict about it and report me anyway for not meeting the RO?

Again, I recently learnt that PR who are PR for less than 5 years or new PR are treated nicely but PR who are PR for more than 5 years are treated strictly? I mean new Pr who are Pr for less than 5 years must meet 2 years RO within 5 years and the officer also count the future days matching from PR card to see if the candidate could meet the RO. But in case of a old PR i.e PR who is a PR for more than 5 years, the officer doesn't calculate the future days rather just calculate days backwards to see if they met the RO. What's the reality? If this is true why aren't they calculating the future days for a old PR according to the validity of the new card? I mean the old PR can also stay for 2 years non stop and still maintain the RO. Why doesn't IRCC allow this for old PR and report them?

 

[Bs65]

Sure you could get reported but are you saying you applied to renew in June 2017 and still do not have your card , have you not followed up at all to see if has dropped into some secondary review ? Assume if it is approved someone will mail/courier it to you ? What’s your plan if they say come collect as you will need a PRTD which will highlight any failed RO.

If your new card is valid say until June 2022 and you travel back with that card then whilst as you say 5 years back from your next entry you will have failed the RO difficult to predict if you would be reported.

You may if you return soon just be waved in and given benefit of doubt given the validity of your new card or you may be reported no way to predict just have to take the chance and if not reported stay put to reset your RO.

 

[fotkifolkslove]

Sure you could get reported but are you saying you applied to renew in June 2017 and still do not have your card , have you not followed up at all ? Assume if it is approved someone will mail/courier it to you ? What’s your plan if they say come collect as you will need a PRTD which will highlight any failed RO.

If your new card is valid say until June 2022 and you travel back with that card then whilst as you say 5 years back from your next entry you will have failed the RO difficult to predict if you would be reported. You may if you return soon just be waved in and given benefit of doubt given the validity of your new card or you may be reported no way to predict just have to take the chance .

Hi thanks for the reply. Recently got decision made on the renewal status and awaiting the letter. I have to tell a family member to wire me the card in case they mail the card. If they request to pick up, definitely it's a problem. I have to apply for a PRTD and I know I already violated the RO as of now and the chances of PRTD rejection is high. Hopefully they mail the card so that I could return to Canada soon.

 

[evdm]

To address the last paragraph in your original post, you are confusing your PR Card with your status.

Once you landed in Canada, you became a PR. The PR card is evidence of this status, but so is your stamped CoPR. The PR Card allows you to travel to Canada and enter with relative ease, much like a passport. The PR Card is a travel document.

I take it by your profile picture that you are a citizen of the USA. If not, just change American for whatever nationality you have in the scenario I describe below.

If your passport expires, do you cease to be an American? No. But you cannot use that passport to travel, or establish identity. You are still American.

The same is true for your PR Card. Once it expires, you cannot use it to travel or establish identity. You are still a PR of Canada!

There are 4 ways you can lose your PR Status, all of them require an official act, therefore, loss is never automatic:

• an adjudicator determines you are no longer a permanent resident after an inquiry or PRTD appeal;
• you voluntarily renounce your permanent resident status;
• a removal order is made against you and comes into force; or
• you become a Canadian citizen

All Permanent residents have to comply with the Residency Obligation. Canada has instituted regulations to ensure that the people to whom the Government grants PR Status will actually settle and take up residence in Canada to contribute to Canadian society. This is also where PR Status differs from Citizenship. PR Status is a privilege that was bestowed on you because you met certain conditions that warranted the issuance of that status so that you may contribute to Canadian Society. In return, Canada expects you to be physically present in Canada for 40% or 730 days of every 5 years.

Here's the law:

28 (1) A permanent resident must comply with a residency obligation with respect to every five-year period.
Application
(2) The following provisions govern the residency obligation under subsection (1):

• (a) a permanent resident complies with the residency obligation with respect to a five-year period if, on each of a total of at least 730 days in that five-year period, they are
  • (i) physically present in Canada,
  • (ii) outside Canada accompanying a Canadian citizen who is their spouse or common-law partner or, in the case of a child, their parent,
  • (iii) outside Canada employed on a full-time basis by a Canadian business or in the federal public administration or the public service of a province,
  • (iv) outside Canada accompanying a permanent resident who is their spouse or common-law partner or, in the case of a child, their parent and who is employed on a full-time basis by a Canadian business or in the federal public administration or the public service of a province, or
  • (v) referred to in regulations providing for other means of compliance;
• (b) it is sufficient for a permanent resident to demonstrate at examination
  
  • (i) if they have been a permanent resident for less than five years, that they will be able to meet the residency obligation in respect of the five-year period immediately after they became a permanent resident;
  • (ii) if they have been a permanent resident for five years or more, that they have met the residency obligation in respect of the five-year period immediately before the examination; [...]

source

The IRPA says that the RO has to be complied with in every 5 year period (see 28(1) above). The act then specifies what 5-year period is meant in 28(2)(b) which states that for new PR's they have 5 years from the date of landing to demonstrate that they will be able to be in Canada for 730 days, and PR's who have been PRs for more than 5 years will have to show that they have been in Canada for 730 days in the past 5 years for the 5-year period before the examination.

Remember, loss of status is never automatic, so there has to be a point of contact between you and IRCC and/or CBSA for them to examine your compliance with the RO. This means crossing the border, or making an application for a document, or sponsorship with IRCC.

Think about it... If a border guard were to examine a new PR a year after they landed, there is no way that the PR could have been in Canada (as a PR) for 730 days. Therefore, an allowance is given for time left in the first 5-year period.

A PR such as yourself, however, has had the opportunity to be in Canada as a PR for more than 5 years but you haven't. So why should a border guard take you on your word that you will stay in Canada in the future. You've already had a chance to establish yourself but you haven't taken it, so really all evidence points towards you not being willing to meet the (rather generous) requirement that Canada has set for you to be given Status so that you can contribute to Canadian society. You had every opportunity to demonstrate to Canada since you became a PR that you fully intend on settling; yet you chose not to. You have been a PR since 2012, and you still are (even when your card expires). However, you now risk losing that status because you didn't do what Canada has asked you to do in return for granting you that status.

There's also a helpful guide on a government website that explains what your rights and obligations as a PR are:

https://www.canada.ca/en/immigratio...-immigrants/pr-card/understand-pr-status.html

 

[fotkifolkslove]

To address the last paragraph in your original post, you are confusing your PR Card with your status.

Once you landed in Canada, you became a PR. The PR card is evidence of this status, but so is your stamped CoPR. The PR Card allows you to travel to Canada and enter with relative ease, much like a passport. The PR Card is a travel document.

I take it by your profile picture that you are a citizen of the USA. If not, just change American for whatever nationality you have in the scenario I describe below.

If your passport expires, do you cease to be an American? No. But you cannot use that passport to travel, or establish identity. You are still American.

The same is true for your PR Card. Once it expires, you cannot use it to travel or establish identity. You are still a PR of Canada!

There are 4 ways you can lose your PR Status, all of them require an official act, therefore, loss is never automatic:

• an adjudicator determines you are no longer a permanent resident after an inquiry or PRTD appeal;
• you voluntarily renounce your permanent resident status;
• a removal order is made against you and comes into force; or
• you become a Canadian citizen

All Permanent residents have to comply with the Residency Obligation. Canada has instituted regulations to ensure that the people to whom the Government grants PR Status will actually settle and take up residence in Canada to contribute to Canadian society. This is also where PR Status differs from Citizenship. PR Status is a privilege that was bestowed on you because you met certain conditions that warranted the issuance of that status so that you may contribute to Canadian Society. In return, Canada expects you to be physically present in Canada for 40% or 730 days of every 5 years.

Here's the law:


source

The IRPA says that the RO has to be complied with in every 5 year period (see 28(1) above). The act then specifies what 5-year period is meant in 28(2)(b) which states that for new PR's they have 5 years from the date of landing to demonstrate that they will be able to be in Canada for 730 days, and PR's who have been PRs for more than 5 years will have to show that they have been in Canada for 730 days in the past 5 years for the 5-year period before the examination.

Remember, loss of status is never automatic, so there has to be a point of contact between you and IRCC and/or CBSA for them to examine your compliance with the RO. This means crossing the border, or making an application for a document, or sponsorship with IRCC.

Think about it... If a border guard were to examine a new PR a year after they landed, there is no way that the PR could have been in Canada (as a PR) for 730 days. Therefore, an allowance is given for time left in the first 5-year period.

A PR such as yourself, however, has had the opportunity to be in Canada as a PR for more than 5 years but you haven't. So why should a border guard take you on your word that you will stay in Canada in the future. You've already had a chance to establish yourself but you haven't taken it, so really all evidence points towards you not being willing to meet the (rather generous) requirement that Canada has set for you to be given Status so that you can contribute to Canadian society. You had every opportunity to demonstrate to Canada since you became a PR that you fully intend on settling; yet you chose not to. You have been a PR since 2012, and you still are (even when your card expires). However, you now risk losing that status because you didn't do what Canada has asked you to do in return for granting you that status.

There's also a helpful guide on a government website that explains what your rights and obligations as a PR are:

https://www.canada.ca/en/immigratio...-immigrants/pr-card/understand-pr-status.html

Thanks for the reply, really appreciate it. Yes I acknowledge that I have already missed the RO by couple of weeks but I am really close to 730 days. I mean If I move within June I will be short of 2 months. I wonder what are the chances of me getting reported? I just don't want to get reported. It scares me to death whenever I think about that worst case scenario. I have also read couple of cases in this forum that people's getting lecture from border officials but not reported them. Also I just renewed my pr card which shows that I met the past ro and really interested in maintaining the ro and settle in Canada. I also hold significant bank account in Canada. Also filed taxes regularly from the past 5 years. Do you think I deserve lectures or reporting? Last question, please bear with me... so in the arrival card they ask "your last time in Canada" and I am gonna put October 2017(last time i was in Canada) which is not that far timeline. How can they know I have breached my RO? Is there any thing automatic like the entry machine that knows this thing about me that I violated the RO? Bcoz in the past, whenever I entered Canada at the POE nobody knew when I exited and nobody asked me the question about residency obligation and stuff like that? What questions are they gonna ask me this time and how should I prepare? Your honest reply is deeply appreciated from the bottom of my heart! Thanks

 

[evdm]

Canada has to draw the line somewhere, and under the current regulations that line is 730 days in the last 5 years. That comes down to 40% of the time over the last 5 years. Less than half.

So really, you may consider that two months is not a long time (and in the grand scheme of things it isn't), but 730 days really is a bare minimum. Look at it from a different perspective. The RO allows you to spend 1095 days outside of Canada in any rolling 5-year period. You've already spent 1,176 days outside of Canada in the last 5 years and each day that goes by gets added on to that.

The question of whether or not you will get reported nobody can really answer. If your PR card is renewed then it's probably likely that you won't face additional questioning at the border. As you say, if you last left Canada in October 2017, then it might not raise suspicion; however, a keen border guard may want to verify your status; or perhaps the machine will randomly select you for secondary inspection.

Until you arrive at the border and go through the process of entering Canada nobody can tell you what's going to happen.

The fact of the matter is that you are currently not in compliance. Whether or not that gets detected is anybody's guess.

 

[zardoz]

One last thing - the expiry date on the PR card is of NO relevance when dealing with Residency Obligation calculations. Ignore it.
Five years period calculation is based on the two following dates only.

1) Landing date, when looking forward (new PR only, implied credit given for the first 1825 days)
2) RO examination date (looking backwards, after having landed more than 1825 days ago)