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PR Expiry

Hmir

Newbie
Jun 4, 2016
2
0
I got PR status in 2012 but due to some domestic issues, i was not in a position to come to Canada till now, but now the remaining time is less than 24 months, which means legally i will not be able to complete the minimum requirement to carry the PR status to next 5 years. Also, during this period, there is addition of child in the family.
My question is that if i want to cover it legally, should i inform the cic and seek relaxation, if it is possible; or should i again apply for immigration to start the process from step 1.
If it is to start the process once again, should it be started now or should i wait for the expiry of current PR status next year and then to start the immigration process again.
Or in other words is it allow to reapply for immigration if requirement of first PR cards is not met. Looking forward for guidance.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,252
3,018
Hmir said:
I got PR status in 2012 but due to some domestic issues, i was not in a position to come to Canada till now, but now the remaining time is less than 24 months, which means legally i will not be able to complete the minimum requirement to carry the PR status to next 5 years. Also, during this period, there is addition of child in the family.
My question is that if i want to cover it legally, should i inform the cic and seek relaxation, if it is possible; or should i again apply for immigration to start the process from step 1.
If it is to start the process once again, should it be started now or should i wait for the expiry of current PR status next year and then to start the immigration process again.
Or in other words is it allow to reapply for immigration if requirement of first PR cards is not met. Looking forward for guidance.
Clarifications:

PR status does NOT expire.

I assume you were issued a PR card in 2012 and that is what will expire in 2017.

Additionally, two years presence in Canada does NOT "carry the PR status to next 5 years." As of the day after the fifth year anniversary of landing, going forward compliance with the PR Residency Obligation is dependent on being in Canada at least 730 within the preceding five years. In other words, as of the day after the fifth year anniversary, the PR will be in breach of the PR RO as of any day that the PR has been outside Canada for 1095 days or more within the previous five years.

Example for a PR who landed July 15, 2012, and who is able to obtain a new PR card in 2017, and who after leaving Canada --
-- is returning to Canada January 15, 2018; compliance with PR RO will be based on days in Canada between January 15, 2013 and January 14, 2018
-- is returning to Canada January 15, 2020; compliance with PR RO will be based on days in Canada between January 15, 2015 and January 14, 2020


Understanding the PR RO Prior to the fifth year anniversary of the date you landed:

A PR's Residency Obligation is met so long as the PR is not outside Canada a total of 1095 days or more before the fifth year anniversary of the date the PR landed. Expiry date on PR card is irrelevant.

It appears you have already been outside Canada more than 1095 days (three years) since the date you landed. Thus, you are already in breach of the PR RO. Thus, you are now "inadmissible." This does not mean you can or would be denied entry into Canada now. Actually you are entitled to enter Canada. But it does mean that if and when you attempt to return to Canada, at the PoE you could be (and perhaps likely would be) reported (a 44(1) Report) for being in breach of the PR RO and issued a Departure Order. You would still be entitled to enter Canada. But if you are reported and issued a Departure Order (or Removal Order), you must appeal and win the appeal in order to keep your PR status.

Whether or not you will actually be reported upon arrival at the PoE can depend on a range of factors, including what explanation you have for not coming to Canada to settle sooner, and on just how much in breach of the PR RO you are (the longer you have been abroad, the more likely you will be reported). Similarly, what chance you have of winning an appeal, if you are reported and must appeal, likewise can depend on what explanation you give for not coming to Canada sooner as well as how much short of being in compliance you are.

If you are not reported at the border, you could stay in Canada for two years before applying for a new PR card and by doing that no longer be in breach of the PR RO, no longer inadmissible. It is important to be in compliance with the PR RO if you make any application to IRCC. Since this includes making an application to sponsor a child born abroad, this probably imposes a logistical hurdle for you even if you were able to come to Canada and were allowed entry without being reported for a breach of the PR RO.


Currently you are not eligible to apply for PR status

You are still a PR. You will remain a PR unless and until there is a final adjudication that your PR status is terminated or you formally surrender PR status. You cannot apply for any other status in the meantime.

How you should approach your situation is a very personal decision which should depend on a wide range of individual factors, not the least of which is how strong a case you can make to keep your current PR status versus how strong a case you have toward succeeding in a new application. Each of these is, in turn, dependent on many circumstances specific to your individual situation, your history, your qualifications, and so on.
 

Rob_TO

VIP Member
Nov 7, 2012
11,427
1,551
Toronto
Category........
FAM
Visa Office......
Seoul, Korea
App. Filed.......
13-07-2012
AOR Received.
18-08-2012
File Transfer...
21-08-2012
Med's Done....
Sent with App
Passport Req..
N/R - Exempt
VISA ISSUED...
30-10-2012
LANDED..........
16-11-2012
Hmir said:
If it is to start the process once again, should it be started now or should i wait for the expiry of current PR status next year and then to start the immigration process again.
If you want to return to Canada as a PR and also get your child PR status, your best option is probably to voluntarily renounce your PR status immediately, and then apply again for PR from scratch for you and your family assuming you qualify for one of the current immigration streams.

You can't apply for PR again, until you formally renounce your current status.
 

tikna2013

Full Member
Jan 10, 2018
32
0
Greeting everyone,
I have a similar question along the lines of PR card validity,here’s my situation :

My PR card is set to expire in the November of 2024,I am planning to travel to Canada by September 2022 and do not plan to travel outside the country after that.In this case I will have completed the Residency Obligation mandated by the Canadian authorities (730 days in the last 5 years) while i am in Canada.Also to point out that i stayed in Canada for 10 days when i made the soft landing for initiating the PR card formalities so i am assuming they too will be counted towards the Residency Obligation required in Canada(that would make it 740 days).
My questions :
1.) Can i apply for a pr card renewal in the month of October/November in the year of 2024?
2.) When i apply for a renewal,could my application be rejected or questioned even if i have met the Residency requirements?
3.) When i travel to Canada in the September of 2022,can i be questioned by the border officers?

Any inputs to these questions would be really helpful.
Thank you!!
 

tikna2013

Full Member
Jan 10, 2018
32
0
Greeting everyone,
I have a similar question along the lines of PR card validity,here’s my situation :

My PR card is set to expire in the November of 2024,I am planning to travel to Canada by September 2022 and do not plan to travel outside the country after that.In this case I will have completed the Residency Obligation mandated by the Canadian authorities (730 days in the last 5 years) while i am in Canada.Also to point out that i stayed in Canada for 10 days when i made the soft landing for initiating the PR card formalities so i am assuming they too will be counted towards the Residency Obligation required in Canada(that would make it 740 days).
My questions :
1.) Can i apply for a pr card renewal in the month of October/November in the year of 2024?
2.) When i apply for a renewal,could my application be rejected or questioned even if i have met the Residency requirements?
3.) When i travel to Canada in the September of 2022,can i be questioned by the border officers?

Any inputs to these questions would be really helpful.
Thank you!!
Any inputs to these questions would be really helpful!!
 

armoured

VIP Member
Feb 1, 2015
15,228
7,755
Greeting everyone,
I have a similar question along the lines of PR card validity,here’s my situation :

My PR card is set to expire in the November of 2024,I am planning to travel to Canada by September 2022 and do not plan to travel outside the country after that.In this case I will have completed the Residency Obligation mandated by the Canadian authorities (730 days in the last 5 years) while i am in Canada.Also to point out that i stayed in Canada for 10 days when i made the soft landing for initiating the PR card formalities so i am assuming they too will be counted towards the Residency Obligation required in Canada(that would make it 740 days).
My questions :
1.) Can i apply for a pr card renewal in the month of October/November in the year of 2024?
2.) When i apply for a renewal,could my application be rejected or questioned even if i have met the Residency requirements?
3.) When i travel to Canada in the September of 2022,can i be questioned by the border officers?

Any inputs to these questions would be really helpful.
Thank you!!
Some of the answers you're asking can't be answered with precision because you don't have exact dates above.

The relevant date is NOT expiry of your PR card, but the five year anniversary of your initial landing date. As long as you have been out of Canada less than 1095 days (i.e. five years minus 730 days) in any five-year period (including the five year period from date of first landing), you are in compliance.

So:
1: Sure, if you're in compliance.
2: It can be rejected for other reasons, of course. If there are doubts about whether you're in compliance with the RO or other issues, it might be 'questioned' i.e. take a bit longer to process.
3: Almost everyone who enters Canada is 'questioned.' That doesn't mean it's an interrogation. If you're in compliance as of that date of entry (i.e. at that date you will have been out of Canada for a total of less than 1095 days since your landing date), you have nothing to worry about, and answer truthfully regardless.
 

tikna2013

Full Member
Jan 10, 2018
32
0
Some of the answers you're asking can't be answered with precision because you don't have exact dates above.

The relevant date is NOT expiry of your PR card, but the five year anniversary of your initial landing date. As long as you have been out of Canada less than 1095 days (i.e. five years minus 730 days) in any five-year period (including the five year period from date of first landing), you are in compliance.

So:
1: Sure, if you're in compliance.
2: It can be rejected for other reasons, of course. If there are doubts about whether you're in compliance with the RO or other issues, it might be 'questioned' i.e. take a bit longer to process.
3: Almost everyone who enters Canada is 'questioned.' That doesn't mean it's an interrogation. If you're in compliance as of that date of entry (i.e. at that date you will have been out of Canada for a total of less than 1095 days since your landing date), you have nothing to worry about, and answer truthfully regardless.
Thank you for the informative response @armored
 

tikna2013

Full Member
Jan 10, 2018
32
0
thank you for the informative response @armoured,this surely helps!!
Just to get my dates accurate so that I can have a more precise information pertaining to my question : I made my soft landing to Canada on October 8,2019 and stayed in Canada until October 20,2019 post which i flew back to my home country.
Coming to my question again,i understand that if i travel to Canada permanently again in the month of September,2021 I would still be able to complete the Residency Obligation and once i submit my pr for approval,i am hoping there would not be too much trouble?
Another query that i have along a different tangent : Can i apply for pr renewal after it has expired while i am in Canada?
Can i apply for renewal just a month before the card expiry?

Hoping to hear from you soon,thanks again
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,252
3,018
Greeting everyone,
I have a similar question along the lines of PR card validity,here’s my situation :

My PR card is set to expire in the November of 2024,I am planning to travel to Canada by September 2022 and do not plan to travel outside the country after that.In this case I will have completed the Residency Obligation mandated by the Canadian authorities (730 days in the last 5 years) while i am in Canada.Also to point out that i stayed in Canada for 10 days when i made the soft landing for initiating the PR card formalities so i am assuming they too will be counted towards the Residency Obligation required in Canada(that would make it 740 days).
My questions :
1.) Can i apply for a pr card renewal in the month of October/November in the year of 2024?
2.) When i apply for a renewal,could my application be rejected or questioned even if i have met the Residency requirements?
3.) When i travel to Canada in the September of 2022,can i be questioned by the border officers?

Any inputs to these questions would be really helpful.
Thank you!!
I fully agree with the comments posted by @armoured.


Additionally . . . Other than this is not an appropriate venue to get personal advice, and more specifically, I am not qualified to offer personal advice, it is probably way too early even for an expert to answer these questions. A lot can happen in a year (between now and September 2022), and a lot more can happen in three years (between now and fall 2024). Including changes in policies and practices, even changes in the law itself. But especially in regards to both what your plans are and in regards to what you actually do, and when.

I realize you are likely looking for guidance based on the circumstances and assumptions you describe, to get some idea how things will work when you make a move to Canada, and not necessarily formal advice. Nonetheless, it needs to be noted, with some emphasis, no one can reliably predict, let alone definitively state how things will go for you a year and three years from now. The variables and contingencies are many.


Some Further Observations:

Obviously your plan is cutting-it-close (as some of us describe it). That involves a range of risks. There are, for example, many forum participants here who had comparable cutting-it-close plans oriented to arriving in Canada by the summer of 2020, more than a few of whom are still abroad and now making inquiries about whether Canada will give them a break on enforcing the Residency Obligation because the Covid-19 global pandemic interfered with their plans. Spoiler alert: there is no change to the RO because of the pandemic; moreover, there is no formal policy to give relief for failing to meet the RO because of the pandemic.

While the impact of the pandemic is unusual and hopefully there will not be any repeat performances of such broadly disruptive events any time soon, it illustrates the fact that stuff-happens, and for the PR remaining abroad to the point of cutting-it-close, if there is something that delays making the move that will put the PR in breach of the RO and at risk of losing PR status. This forum sees more than a few such cases, ranging from delays due to particular financial or employment situations, to a need to remain abroad because a parent is suddenly seriously ill, or there is a car crash or other cause of injuries, or personal medical conditions, interfering with the PR's plan to move. Stuff-happens.

There is a lot of discussion about H&C relief for when a PR has what some might describe as "good reasons" for failing to return to Canada in time to meet the RO. This does not constitute anywhere near the open door many seem to think. The RO, as is, is specifically intended to give PRs sufficient flexibility to accommodate almost any reason, thus including any "good reason," for being outside Canada for an extended period of time. So a "good reason" generally is NOT good enough to overcome being in breach of the RO.

Caution: You say you "do not plan to travel outside the country" after coming here. If you are real close to spending 1095 days outside Canada by the time you come, that means you will NOT be able to travel outside Canada without breaching the RO for the next two years. This too is the kind of plan many have which tends to run into real life stuff.


thank you for the informative response @armoured,this surely helps!!
Just to get my dates accurate so that I can have a more precise information pertaining to my question : I made my soft landing to Canada on October 8,2019 and stayed in Canada until October 20,2019 post which i flew back to my home country.
Coming to my question again,i understand that if i travel to Canada permanently again in the month of September,2021 I would still be able to complete the Residency Obligation and once i submit my pr for approval,i am hoping there would not be too much trouble?
Another query that i have along a different tangent : Can i apply for pr renewal after it has expired while i am in Canada?
Can i apply for renewal just a month before the card expiry?

Hoping to hear from you soon,thanks again
If you arrive in Canada before you have been outside the country more than 1095 days since October 8, 2019, you are still in compliance with the RO.

A PR does not need to be in Canada for 730 days during the first five years to be in compliance, so long as the PR has not been outside Canada for more than 1095 days (stated differently: as long as the PR has not been outside Canada for more than 1095 days during the first five years, there are still enough days left on the calendar for the PR to spend 730 days in Canada by the fifth year anniversary of landing).

Currently a PR can apply for a new PR card nine months prior to the expiration date for the PRC. That has more often been six months but it appears it is currently longer because of the slow processing over the last year and a half.

As noted above, the more you are cutting-it-close, the more there are risks. Among the risks is that a PRC application could encounter non-routine processing and thus take longer than most PRC applications. For example, some PRs have seen their PRC application bogged down in Secondary Review for up to a year.

Reminder: getting a new PR card does not restart the RO clock. As of October 8, 2024, your RO compliance will always be based on counting the number of days IN Canada during the five years prior to the day officials are making that calculation. Each day is a different calculation.
 
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armoured

VIP Member
Feb 1, 2015
15,228
7,755
Just to get my dates accurate so that I can have a more precise information pertaining to my question : I made my soft landing to Canada on October 8,2019 and stayed in Canada until October 20,2019 post which i flew back to my home country.
Coming to my question again,i understand that if i travel to Canada permanently again in the month of September,2021 I would still be able to complete the Residency Obligation and once i submit my pr for approval,i am hoping there would not be too much trouble?
Another query that i have along a different tangent : Can i apply for pr renewal after it has expired while i am in Canada?
Can i apply for renewal just a month before the card expiry?
One reason why there is a tendency to avoid what can be construed as 'advice' - the details of questions often seem to be fluid. Above you asked about returning in September 2022, here you are asking about September 2021 - for someone who landed in October 2019, these are quite different cases: one is cutting-it-close (see @dpenabill's comments), the other has a pretty good buffer. At any rate, technically, in either case, it still comes down to being in compliance or not.

For PR card renewal: cases that seem to be borderline seem to often take longer to process (while IRCC does more careful review). Hence many here suggest not applying for PR card renewal until one has the 730 days to be in compliance plus some extra (eg 30 to 90 days); that may vary somewhat depending on complexity. ("Complexity" here not well defined but eg a PR who travels to the USA and other countries extremely frequently perhaps)

Note though: a PR can live and work and reside in Canada legally with close to no issues without a current PR card (ie. expired). Within Canada the PR card is not used for all that much except eg to apply for 'new things' and in many cases doesn't even require the PR card to be current. Still useful to have a valid PR card - need to travel might come up; but if the choice is between living some period with an expired PR card (in order to get in compliance first) or applying for a new one while out of compliance (which risks being reported for not being in compliance or very long processing), most of the time will be better to wait.
 

tikna2013

Full Member
Jan 10, 2018
32
0
One reason why there is a tendency to avoid what can be construed as 'advice' - the details of questions often seem to be fluid. Above you asked about returning in September 2022, here you are asking about September 2021 - for someone who landed in October 2019, these are quite different cases: one is cutting-it-close (see @dpenabill's comments), the other has a pretty good buffer. At any rate, technically, in either case, it still comes down to being in compliance or not.

For PR card renewal: cases that seem to be borderline seem to often take longer to process (while IRCC does more careful review). Hence many here suggest not applying for PR card renewal until one has the 730 days to be in compliance plus some extra (eg 30 to 90 days); that may vary somewhat depending on complexity. ("Complexity" here not well defined but eg a PR who travels to the USA and other countries extremely frequently perhaps)

Note though: a PR can live and work and reside in Canada legally with close to no issues without a current PR card (ie. expired). Within Canada the PR card is not used for all that much except eg to apply for 'new things' and in many cases doesn't even require the PR card to be current. Still useful to have a valid PR card - need to travel might come up; but if the choice is between living some period with an expired PR card (in order to get in compliance first) or applying for a new one while out of compliance (which risks being reported for not being in compliance or very long processing), most of the time will be better to wait.
This was extremely helpful and i cannot thank you enough for taking out the time and giving me such informational insights that are sure to come in handy for me once i return to Canada and apply for renewal.
From the discussion above,i gather i would be able to complete the Residency Obligation if i make a permanent landing in the September of 2022 and apply for a renewal in the month of November 2024,however I understand it would a good decision to wait additional 30 or 90 days(even if my current pr card expires within this period) to get some cushion before i apply for a renewal to avoid longer processing times or a secondary review by the IRCC.
Thank you again for extending a helping and explaining this to me in such detail
 

armoured

VIP Member
Feb 1, 2015
15,228
7,755
From the discussion above,i gather i would be able to complete the Residency Obligation if i make a permanent landing in the September of 2022 and apply for a renewal in the month of November 2024,however I understand it would a good decision to wait additional 30 or 90 days(even if my current pr card expires within this period) to get some cushion before i apply for a renewal to avoid longer processing times or a secondary review by the IRCC.
No-one but you can be responsible for the tracking and calculation of your days-in-Canada to ensure you are in compliance. You could apply before the old card expires when you are in compliance (again, a small buffer may help).

I repeat and underline the caution above: if at all possible, planning to return to Canada to stay so that you have extra 'room' to get and remain in compliance is really worth considering.

A quite considerable percentage of questions and problems with the residency obligation are made up of PRs who for 'reasons' thought they could cut-it-close and then life happened; even when/if resolved later - and not all are - at minimum it is additional stress and sometimes severe restrictions in some areas like ability to travel.