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kiritori

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Jan 28, 2020
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A couple of quick questions regarding the process of renewing the PR card.

I have read through the forum as much as possible so I hope to avoid asking the same questions and I apologize in advance for inevitably not being able to do so for the length of this post.

I landed in Canada in October 2015. I have a Canadian spouse and our young child is also a Canadian citizen. Upon landing, we quickly began applying for jobs and while my spouse received several offers, I was not so lucky - given the real estate situation in Canada, we were worried about our ability to be able to get by on one salary. We decided to work in the lucrative international civil service and save up for house to Canada so that we have one headache less while we try to settle into the Canadian job market. From landing in Canada until August 2018, all three of us lived outside of Canada - from Oct 2015 to June 2017, my wife and I worked for the same international organization. In June 2017, I move to the United Nations and my wife quit her job and we moved together to a third country. After a year there, in inhospitable conditions and with our daughter due to start JK, we decided to finally invest our savings in a property in Canada and have been paying off a mortgage since mid-2018. My Canadian wife and child are in Canada full time, with my wife adding to her qualifications in order to improve her prospects of a good job that could eventually support all three of us when I move there full time. In the meantime, I am working in the field as an international civil servant so that we can meet our financial obligations and have an opportunity to afford the time to make sure my spouse walks into a proper job. Since August 2018, I have spent approximately 4.5 months in Canada and they have spent roughly the same time visiting me in my duty station.

I know that time spent with a Canadian spouse living abroad counts as time spent in Canada - does it matter 'who was accompanying whom'? Or is it enough that both my Canadian spouse and child were together with me? What sort of evidence do I need to provide to support our time abroad together(employment records, photos form the country in question, our child's nursery records?)? Given that this is more than 2 out of 5 years, would this by itself qualify for the PR extension?

If the above requirement has been wrongly understood by me, I have seen multiple posts on the forum that working as an international civil servant/diplomat, is not considered a valid enough reason by the courts as a reason for not meeting the residency requirement - I would just like to confirm that this applies even in situations where all your funds, tax returns, bank accounts, property and spouse and child are in Canada and you don't really have permanent residence anywhere else as your stay in a third country is regulated by international conventions and does not allow you to stay in that country outside of the mandate of your organization?

Assuming that the answer to the above is that my professional mandate/status/organization is of no concern, I have seen that there are options to apply for an extension on the basis of humanitarian/compassionate grounds - does the fact that my young child and my spouse are Canadian citizens and that revoking my PR status would keep me away from them (or keep them away from Canada in order for us to be a complete family), fall under this category? Or are compassionate grounds mostly to explain why you are outside of Canada (e.g. caring for sick relatives etc.)

Finally, if all else fails, is there a reasonable possibility to apply for a fresh PR through family sponsorship given that my wife and daughter are Canadian citizens. How would that application process differ from the initial process?

Since landing, we have not been to the country of my nationality at all, even for visits. I don't know if this can also be considered as any sort of proof that our only real home is Canada (on top of the fact that all the money we have is invested/tied down there, my salaries go to my Canadian bank, we have a Canadian mortgage, pay Canadian taxes etc.)

My PR card expires in one year. I know that we are being extra careful with all of this and are living in a situation which does not suit as we are a close knit family that is really struggling through this separation (first time in our 13 years together, 10 years married and first time since our daughter's birth). However, we are on track to pay off our mortgage very early and have given ourselves a decent cushion to enter the job market at a higher level than we would had we been in a position to seek any jobs just to make ends meet. While Canadian PR for me is a privilege, we were very wary of so many new or returnee Canadians burning through their savings without properly settling in and being forced into a vicious cycle of working out of their profession just to make get through the month. We have moved our entire life to Canada since I landed - I have also extensively applied for jobs in Canada and am slowly developing professional networks but I have no idea when this will come through and I can't simply turn my back of well paid work for hope. At the same time, I am desperate to get back to my family. I would really like to get this across in any renewal application if this is not a clear case based on the above options.

I would greatly appreciate any discussion and advice on how to proceed with this and get everything in order in place in a timely manner.

Thanks in advance.
 
It would be much simple if your wife working outside Canada, while you staying full time in Canada. Now, it looks like to renounce your status and have your wife sponsor you again would be one course of action.
 
Thank a lot. Does this mean that time spent abroad with spouse is now definitely subject to 'who accompanied who'? We have about 15 months of her also working for an int'l organization seconded by Canada so I guess that can work out that way.

The reason she is back in Canada is that as a citizen and a French speaker, her chances of a decent Government job are much higher than mine as a permanent resident - as a PR, work in my field is next to impossible as you need top secret clearances which are available only to citizens. That is the catch 22 we are in - I need to obtain citizenship and wait a long while before getting chances in areas I have a ton of experience but to do that I need to leave a job that pays well enough for us to completely establish ourselves in Canada.

Does the fact that our child is Canadian and going to school in Canada not qualify for H&C grounds? She has literally started her schooling here from scratch and we don't really have any connection to my country of nationality in that regard.

I am just trying to figure out what is the best way to approach this.

Best
Srdan
 
Thank a lot. Does this mean that time spent abroad with spouse is now definitely subject to 'who accompanied who'? We have about 15 months of her also working for an int'l organization seconded by Canada so I guess that can work out that way.

The reason she is back in Canada is that as a citizen and a French speaker, her chances of a decent Government job are much higher than mine as a permanent resident - as a PR, work in my field is next to impossible as you need top secret clearances which are available only to citizens. That is the catch 22 we are in - I need to obtain citizenship and wait a long while before getting chances in areas I have a ton of experience but to do that I need to leave a job that pays well enough for us to completely establish ourselves in Canada.

Does the fact that our child is Canadian and going to school in Canada not qualify for H&C grounds? She has literally started her schooling here from scratch and we don't really have any connection to my country of nationality in that regard.

I am just trying to figure out what is the best way to approach this.

Best
Srdan

A child being in a Canadian school or your desire to pay off a mortgage faster are definitely not H&C reasons. You are in a position where your wife can sponsor you again if needed.
 
Does this mean that time spent abroad with spouse is now definitely subject to 'who accompanied who'?

No. There is little indication that the who-accompanied-whom question is a factor in MOST cases where a PR is relying on credit for accompanying a Canadian citizen spouse abroad, as long as the PR and citizen spouse are living together abroad.

BUT it can be a question in some circumstances. It gets complicated. There is a topic here specifically addressing this issue. See topic titled "Who-accompanied-whom can matter for PRs living with citizen spouse abroad: UPDATE" at https://www.canadavisa.com/canada-i...ing-with-citizen-spouse-abroad-update.579860/

Time visiting you probably will NOT be given credit. Time abroad living together has very good odds of getting credit. But not guaranteed (again see the in-depth discussion linked above), especially since it appears your spouse has mostly lived abroad with you and you personally have not established yourself in Canada much. But how things will actually go in regard to these matters is very difficult to forecast

It appears that even with credit you fall short of being in compliance with the Residency Obligation. If you return to stay in Canada, that will help your odds of keeping status considerably. Otherwise you can pursue keeping status as long as possible pending future developments. For example, as long as you are not outside Canada continuously for a year, you will be able to obtain a special PR TD to come to Canada while you have an appeal pending . . . whether that arises because you are issued a Departure Order at a PoE or you are denied a PR Travel Document. And then you should be able to obtain a one-year PR card while the appeal is pending. There is NOTHING wrong or negative about following this process to its very end even if the end is losing PR status. If that happens, your spouse can sponsor you again BUT of course you should wait until you are actually ready to settle and stay in Canada.

In the meantime, after you have a decision terminating PR status for a breach of the RO (again, either being Reported and issued a Departure Order at a PoE, or having an application for a PR TD denied) and you appeal (you get to keep PR status pending the appeal) that gives some time to adapt if circumstances change. In particular, if you are able to come to Canada and STAY pending the appeal, that could significantly help your odds of keeping PR status.

In the latter regard I disagree with more than a few forum participants about what H&C reasons will help. Any explanation for why you have not returned to actually live in Canada sooner can help. Any tie or connection to a life in Canada will for sure be a positive factor, including property ownership but more especially family living in Canada (this can get complicated; whether or not pending the appeal the PR is living in Canada can have a big impact on the influence of this factor -- after all, if the PR is living abroad, while family is in Canada, that is evidence that the separation is NOT a serious hardship, which can negate the positive weight having family in Canada usually has).

H&C cases are almost always TRICKY and most often DIFFICULT. Odds are usually NOT good. But again there is no harm at all in pursuing an appeal and keeping PR status as long as possible. Worst case scenario is eventually you lose PR status and your spouse can sponsor you again. There is NO negative implication for following the process to the very end.
 
Worst case scenario is eventually you lose PR status and your spouse can sponsor you again. There is NO negative implication for following the process to the very end.

Are there negative implications to losing PR status and re-applying for sponsorship again?
 
Are there negative implications to losing PR status and re-applying for sponsorship again?

No. None at all have been so much as hinted at.

On the contrary, official decisions in actual cases have said that the availability of being sponsored to again become a PR mitigates or offsets the hardship of losing PR status for a PR with a spouse and family in Canada; that is, the availability of being sponsored is part of the reasoning why H&C relief should be given.

Of course the individual losing PR status should not apply for sponsored PR again UNTIL he or she is prepared and planning to actually come to live in Canada. And at least some of the decisions expressly refer to this. (Reminder: the PURPOSE of granting PR status, to enable an individual to actually establish a PERMANENT residence in Canada, clearly plays a much bigger role in IRCC decision-making than many recognize; sure, the technicalities are important, but so is the purpose.)

It warrants some emphasis that the weight typically given to the PR staying in Canada pending an appeal, in the H&C analysis, is significantly more positive for a PR with family already well settled in Canada and especially so a PR whose Canadian spouse can readily sponsor his or her PR again. For other PRs with appeals pending, staying in Canada pending the appeal is mostly about avoiding the negative influence of being abroad that additional time. But for a PR who has settled in Canada pending the appeal, having a well-settled family in Canada including a spouse who can sponsor the PR again, in the event the appeal is denied, usually has a strong positive influence. And allowing the appeal avoids the expenditure of resources to process the new sponsored PR application.

While a bit dated now, the best statistics we have indicate that FEWER than one-in-ten appeals of PoE 44(1) Reports are successful (in 2014 fewer than 80 of 1008 appeals resulted in keeping PR status; additionally, I expect there is an even lower success rate for PR TD denial appeals). It is likely that the success rate for PRs with a spouse fully settled in Canada varies considerably depending on whether the PR comes and settles and stays IN Canada pending the appeal; that is, those who come and stay have much better odds of success, and not so those who remain abroad pending the appeal.
 
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Thanks so much for the responses and sorry for the delayed reply.

As far as the H&C is concerned, I nowhere mentioned working to pay a mortgage off faster in that context. I was mostly looking at it from the angle of my spouse and child, given that they are Canadian citizens and that denying me the PR would basically face Canadian citizens with a choice of staying in their country sans the father or leaving Canada, and their established life, in order to be reunited as a family. I guess it is understandable given the sheer volume of PR applications/appeals that everything is looked in as narrow and linear way as possible but it is a little frustrating because our situation is all about having a successful integration/reintegration to Canada and not a case of weighing options - as I mentioned above, it is a catch-22 - without a well paid international job I would not have the chance to buy property in Canada or afford post-graduate education at a top Canadian univerisity for my wife (to strengthen her career prospects as she also worked mostly in international organizations as a Canadian secondee) - this is actually quite a firm commitment to establishing roots but seems to be deemed less so than if we had just quit everything and ended up working random jobs to make ends meet and not have an opportunity to qualify let alone buy property. PR gives you a great entry point into Canada but it just makes it possible the whole myriad of factors required to integrate and settle and these are not necessarily best met by just simply being there without doing the groundwork and setting a proper, responsible base (especially when you make the move closer to 40 than 20). The fact that all our plans, money, property etc. is tied to Canada, that I have literally not been to my country of nationality since landing combined with concrete moves to establish networks, improve qualifications etc. always had me believing that it would count for something but I guess I was naive about that.

In any case, that is as it is.

Dpenabill - thanks a lot for your post. I actually did read the post you quote prior to posting and hence my apology for maybe asking the same questions as the original post runs until Feb 2019 (thought maybe something more concrete happened prior to this). While my wife worked at the same organization as I did in the field, the time together could count towards time spent in Canada (about a year and a half). If they recognize the subsequent year we spent together with only me working in a different location, that puts us comfortably above the 730 threshold. If they don't, and my PR card is valid still for a year, I still have a decent chance of making the 730 (the year and a half plus my 4-4.5 months in Canada since we started separately in August 2018) - in general my leave allows me to spend about 3 moths this year. Would it be advisable to do these exact calculations now already?

In case I am told that I need to leave and there is an appeal, would maybe taking special leave without pay work to allow me to be in Canada for an extended period of time during this process? The downside to this is that I would be dishonest and would also lose the main reason for the mess - the money to create that buffer/safety net that would allow me to comfortably seek employment in Canada. The upside of course is that if my wife is successful in her job hunt before that, the whole issue would become academic as I could then move in way before my PR card expires.

It is great to hear that applying for a new PR is not a big issue if rejected is not a big issue - that basically means that I would be able to come and visit on a tourist visa until the time to move is actually set?

Finally, would you recommend getting a lawyer for this or should I handle the process by myself (the initial application to renew the PR).

Thank you so much for your assistance and comments everyone, I really appreciate them as well as your patience in reading through my posts. I understand every case is unique but it is good to get a perspective of how these things are seen in the eyes of the Govt and all these panels.
 
While my wife worked at the same organization as I did in the field, the time together could count towards time spent in Canada (about a year and a half). If they recognize the subsequent year we spent together with only me working in a different location, that puts us comfortably above the 730 threshold. If they don't, and my PR card is valid still for a year, I still have a decent chance of making the 730 (the year and a half plus my 4-4.5 months in Canada since we started separately in August 2018) - in general my leave allows me to spend about 3 moths this year. Would it be advisable to do these exact calculations now already?

To be clear: I am NOT an expert. I am NOT qualified to give personal advice. I cannot say what is "advisable" (except in very general terms, like obviously it is advisable to comply with the Residency Obligation).

I can offer some observations and information which I hope helps individuals make decisions for themselves.

Actually staying in compliance with the PR Residency Obligation is almost always the far, far better, safer approach, than relying on even the strongest H&C case. Doing the calculations is one thing. What matters, though, is the amount of time actually spent in Canada.

And, by the way, the amount of time actually spent in Canada is the one biggest factor in any H&C assessment. Falling short of the RO by a week or three is one thing. Falling short by many months, let alone a year or more, makes things a lot more difficult . . . and this is true for PoE examinations as well, the PR who is regularly coming and going from Canada and staying for substantial periods of time in Canada, has much better odds of being waived into Canada without being reported even if he or she falls short of RO compliance by a few weeks. Even if subjected to an in-depth RO examination, this PR has far better odds of leniency.

A reminder: the validity date of the PR card is NOT relevant to much. A valid PR card allows the PR to board a flight headed to Canada. That's it. It MAY facilitate an easier time at the PoE, if there is nothing triggering the PIL (Primary Inspection Line) officer's concerns about any potential RO compliance issues, recognizing not having a valid PR card tends to elevate the level of scrutiny. BUT for the calculation of RO compliance itself, the PR card's validity date is NOT relevant.

This continues to be true for a PR issued a new PR card. The PR must still be in compliance with the RO. For example, if you took leave later this year, applied for and obtained a new PR card before going abroad again, and then say you go abroad to continue your employment abroad, later returning to Canada early in the year 2022. Even with a fairly new PR card, barely more than a year old, you are required to be in compliance with the RO when you arrive at the PoE into Canada. So, if you arrive February 3, 2022, the RO calculation will be based on your presence in Canada (plus any other credit, if you qualify for it) between February 3, 2017 and February 3, 2022.

This also applies now. Which makes the calculation of days relevant now. If you arrive at a PoE into Canada this coming May, for example, say the same date in May, 2020 that you landed in October, 2015, you risk being Reported and issued a Departure Order THAT DAY UNLESS you are in compliance with the RO on that day. That is, if the total number of days credit toward compliance you have add up to less than 730, you will be in breach and at risk for losing PR status, as of that day.

Reminder, say you landed October 11, 2015, and you arrive at a PoE into Canada May 11, 2020, your credit toward compliance will be the total of --
-- number of days actually IN Canada between October 11, 2015 and May 11, 2020
-- number of days you are allowed credit for time accompanying a Canadian citizen spouse abroad during that same period of time
-- number of days left between May 11, 2020 (date of PoE examination) and October 11, 2020 (fifth year anniversary of date of landing)​

If that total is at least 730, you will be in compliance with the RO that day. If that total is less than 730, you will be in breach, and at risk of being Reported and issued a Departure Order. (After the fifth year anniversary of the date of landing, the calculation is based on the previous five years.)

That noted, what actually happens can vary considerably. For example, the more recently you were in Canada and longer the duration of that stay, the better odds you have of just being waived through without questions about RO compliance.


"In case I am told that I need to leave and there is an appeal . . . "

There are way, way too many possibilities, too many contingent factors, to try mapping all the possible angles.

In general terms, spending days in Canada pending an appeal is a lot better than being abroad. But actually settling and establishing one's life in Canada is an important element. And real life, and real life PRIORITIES, the PRACTICAL decisions an individual needs to make, loom large. Not sure how to say it; maybe call it "pretzel twisting," in an effort to potentially make a better impression, tends to be a wasted exercise. And that seems particularly applicable in your situation, where you have the safety net of being sponsored again.

Leading to . . .
" . . . applying for a new PR is not a big issue if rejected is not a big issue - that basically means that I would be able to come and visit on a tourist visa until the time to move is actually set?"​

This is a more complicated issue. And that is a big part of why the conventional wisdom suggests pursuing the appeal and thereby keeping PR status as long as possible. (Caveat: this is not without its own types of risks. After all, we are all mortal and human. A fatal car accident, for example, could mean no spouse to sponsor your PR again. And even strong marriages sometimes fail. Real life tends to go its own way, and sometimes that depends on the wind, so to say.)

In any event, if you lose PR status (whether you appeal or not, but when the appeal is denied if you do appeal), you will then again be a FN (Foreign National) with the same status as if you never were a Canadian PR. That is about status. But, for example, if your passport is not visa-exempt, you will need to qualify for a visitor's visa just like any other person who carries that country's passport. Again, that is about status.

Just like any other FN without a visa-exempt passport, YOUR INDIVIDUAL circumstances will have a big influence in whether the Canadian government will issue a visitor's visa. The same criteria apply, with assurances that you will timely leave Canada looming large. You will have a lengthy history of coming and going, even when you could legally stay, so that is a strong indicator you are more likely to leave than overstay. BUT your family is IN Canada, which is an indicator you might be tempted to overstay. My impression is that unless there are particular circumstances suggesting otherwise, your history will help give you very good odds of getting a visitor visa. But how it goes is NOT guaranteed and it can and indeed will vary depending on the individual's personal circumstances.

" . . . would you recommend getting a lawyer for this or should I handle the process by myself (the initial application to renew the PR)."​

Again, I do not offer personal recommendations. That said, it is difficult to see how a lawyer could help much in making an application to renew a PR card (reminder: you do not renew PR status; it never expires). The application process is straight-forward. HOWEVER, I will rarely discourage anyone from at least consulting with a lawyer (paid-for consultation; it is difficult enough to get what one pays for when dealing with lawyers, so a free consultation tends to be, well, worth little or no more than what was paid for it).
 
Just realized that I left out an important "not" in a post above:

"On the contrary, official decisions in actual cases have said that the availability of being sponsored to again become a PR mitigates or offsets the hardship of losing PR status for a PR with a spouse and family in Canada; that is, the availability of being sponsored is part of the reasoning why H&C relief should [NOT] be given." The latter "NOT" added. That is, losing PR status is not as much hardship for a PR who has a spouse who can sponsor him or her again, so there is less reason to grant H&C relief.

Which emphasizes the recognition that yes, those who lose PR status can be sponsored again . . . of course the sponsor must meet the eligibility requirements to sponsor, but to sponsor a spouse those requirements are not onerous.