Physical Presence

[scylla]

I applied on 1096 day but the application was filled on 1095 day.

If we could all go back in time, most of us here would very strongly recommend not to apply as soon as you qualify and to apply with a buffer of at least a few weeks. Applying as soon as you qualify often causes an application to undergo closer reviews. So what you save by applying as soon as you qualify you often more than lose in the longer processing times.

Unfortunately you can't go back in time so engaging your MP is probably your best bet. Good luck.

 

[D-Dog]

I agree with your points. As an applicant, the application process costs both money and time. So, it's reasonable to expect transparency about what's happening with our applications. Instead of receiving generic responses, we should get specific information tailored to our situation. In today's advanced society, where we can track things like food deliveries in real-time, it's frustrating to not have similar visibility into our applications. We shouldn't have to inquire about our applications unless there's an issue, as relevant updates should be automatically shared with us. It's ironic how IRCC expects us to apply and then wait for up to 14 months without much communication, only to require prompt responses when they need information from us. Reflecting on what I've written, it seems filled with negativity, which is disheartening. But I wonder, is it a lack of something?

I don't disagree. However, what kind of transparency would you like to see? The tracker provides a sense of clarity, and any fair minded person wouldn't expect to get updates from the IRCC about their interactions with external agencies. Personally, I think the key is to look at this as a long process in a queue of hundreds of thousands of folks.

 

[phewphew]

If we could all go back in time, most of us here would very strongly recommend not to apply as soon as you qualify and to apply with a buffer of at least a few weeks. Applying as soon as you qualify often causes an application to undergo closer reviews. So what you save by applying as soon as you qualify you often more than lose in the longer processing times.

Unfortunately you can't go back in time so engaging your MP is probably your best bet. Good luck.

I know scylla, I know! Since February, I've been trying to get my entry and exit records, as all my travel has been to the USA. While I can easily access my i94 record within seconds, CBSA has repeatedly rejected my ATIP request. First, there was a system malfunction due to maintenance, then after reapplying after 30 days, it was rejected again without any explanation, claiming I abandoned the request. When I tried to follow up, CBSA redirected me to ATIP, and ATIP sent me back to CBSA. It's been a loop with no clear solution. So, I've applied again through ATIP, and it's still in progress.

I'm seriously considering withdrawing my application and reapplying. I just don't want to wait 14 months only to be told that my record is off by just one day. Since the border didn't stamp my passport, my only source of information is my i94 record, which matches the dates on my bank statement. Unless anyone has suggestions on how I can obtain this information in person or through another method.

 

[scylla]

I know scylla, I know! Since February, I've been trying to get my entry and exit records, as all my travel has been to the USA. While I can easily access my i94 record within seconds, CBSA has repeatedly rejected my ATIP request. First, there was a system malfunction due to maintenance, then after reapplying after 30 days, it was rejected again without any explanation, claiming I abandoned the request. When I tried to follow up, CBSA redirected me to ATIP, and ATIP sent me back to CBSA. It's been a loop with no clear solution. So, I've applied again through ATIP, and it's still in progress.

I'm seriously considering withdrawing my application and reapplying. I just don't want to wait 14 months only to be told that my record is off by just one day. Since the border didn't stamp my passport, my only source of information is my i94 record, which matches the dates on my bank statement. Unless anyone has suggestions on how I can obtain this information in person or through another method.

If you are not 100% sure that you have the 1095 days, then withdrawing is a serious consideration. We've seen too many cases here where people are "sure" they have the minimum number of days and later find out they forgot about a trip. If you don't have the 1095 days, you can't be approved. I think it's one thing to apply right at 1095 days if you remained in Canada for three straight years after PR. Then it's pretty clear someone has the 3 years. But if you have travel, then it's on you to keep a detailed record. I would not rely on CBSA or CBP. The records my husband received from both the US and Canada were incomplete and didn't reflect all of his travel (he's originally American). When my husband applied for citizenship, he forgot about one same day trip to the US. This was not listed in any of the travel records we were able to obtain and he missed recording it on his spreadsheet. IRCC found it and that created delays since it meant his application was technically incomplete. Back then, the process was a lot faster so "delays" still meant he had approval just within a few months. Plus he applied with over a month buffer and the same day trip didn't impact the number of days.

Anyway, hard to say what to do. Good luck.

 

[phewphew]

I don't disagree. However, what kind of transparency would you like to see? The tracker provides a sense of clarity, and any fair minded person wouldn't expect to get updates from the IRCC about their interactions with external agencies. Personally, I think the key is to look at this as a long process in a queue of hundreds of thousands of folks.

For instance, in my own situation: According to the tracker, all stages are completed except for "Physical Presence: In Progress" and "Citizen Ceremony: Not started" since January 25th. However, according to GCMS, an update was made to the Note section on January 25th stating "Physical Presence Verified Yes-No Concern. Outcome of Review: In accordance with the Citizenship Act and Regulation and based on the information, Citizenship is granted. Next stage: Ceremony Ready." I waited for two months, but when I called for an update, the first agent said it was under review, the second agent claimed it was an error on GCMS and still in process, the third agent promised to call back but didn't, and the fourth agent said it was under review and to wait for 14 months. It's confusing to know who is giving the correct information. As an applicant, or simply as a person who values clear communication, why am I left with vague statements and feeling trapped in uncertainty?
Human to Human, what would you advise me D-Dog?

 

[phewphew]

If you are not 100% sure that you have the 1095 days, then withdrawing is a serious consideration. We've seen too many cases here where people are "sure" they have the minimum number of days and later find out they forgot about a trip. If you don't have the 1095 days, you can't be approved. I think it's one thing to apply right at 1095 days if you remained in Canada for three straight years after PR. Then it's pretty clear someone has the 3 years. But if you have travel, then it's on you to keep a detailed record. I would not rely on CBSA or CBP. The records my husband received from both the US and Canada were incomplete and didn't reflect all of his travel (he's originally American). When my husband applied for citizenship, he forgot about one same day trip to the US. This was not listed in any of the travel records we were able to obtain and he missed recording it on his spreadsheet. IRCC found it and that created delays since it meant his application was technically incomplete. Back then, the process was a lot faster so "delays" still meant he had approval just within a few months. Plus he applied with over a month buffer and the same day trip didn't impact the number of days.

Anyway, hard to say what to do. Good luck.

Thank you, Scylla, for your guidance. Currently, I've reapplied for the GCMS note and will check if the statement "Physical Presence Verified: Yes - No Concern" has been flagged as an error. If it has, then I'll opt to withdraw the application. I prefer to live without worry rather than in uncertainty. Once again, my sincere appreciation and gratitude to you

 

[phewphew]

I have received Entry and Exit data from CBSA, which aligns perfectly with the information I provided them. I am confident that I have fulfilled the requirement of being present for 1095 days.

However, I noticed a discrepancy after I applied for citizenship. Two weeks after applying, I took a long weekend trip to the States via land. Strangely, the CBSA records only display my entry date, not the exit date. I suspect this might be causing a delay in my application process.

My concern is how to rectify this situation. Interestingly, the entry date on my I94 form doesn't match (it shows an entry on the following day).

Suggestion and advice please!

 

[dpenabill]

I had a conversation with an agent over the phone now. She explained that the officer confirmed my physical presence without any concerns. However, another department needs to verify this before the file can proceed to the ceremony stage. They mentioned it might take up to 15 months for this process, leaving me speechless before I hung up the phone.

@phewphew -- not sure I can offer much in the way of helping you decide what to do now. For the most part, the cake is in the oven.

So, frankly, this post might be mostly to once again fully explain in this forum why the caution (1) to do one's damn best to fully record and report travel history, and (2) to wait to apply with a good buffer over the minimum.

Many think a week is enough. Probably works for most. Leaving a sizable number who should wait longer, at least weeks, or to my view at least a month . . . and in particular circumstances, many would be wise to wait significantly longer (I waited an extra year, for particular reasons related to migrating my business here from outside Canada).

@scylla has mostly covered the situation, including the observation "If you are not 100% sure that you have the 1095 days, then withdrawing is a serious consideration."

EXCEPT, to be clear, even if you are sure that on the day you made the application you had been IN Canada 1095 days (it appears there is no possibility it was any more than that), that might NOT be enough. You may need to PROVE it.

And at this stage the question might be whether IRCC will require you to prove it to a Citizenship Judge (CJ). It is one thing to get bogged down in many months of delay waiting for IRCC to go through the process of verifying physical presence in cases where it is not readily verified the presence requirement is met (which as @scylla noted is among reasons why most applicants, ALL prudent applicants, wait to apply with a good buffer, most a buffer over the minimum of WEEKS, to reduce the risk of processing delays) . . . that is one thing . . . it is quite another if IRCC decides the case needs to go to a CJ, because so far as we have seen this is still a process that adds more than just some months, but likely many months approaching an additional year, perhaps that plus some or even plus a lot.

There is probably still a good chance you are only in the extra weeks to a few months range. IRCC exercising some caution in verifying your physical presence. No big deal. BUT, also NO way to confirm that unless and until you are actually scheduled to take the oath.

There is some risk, in contrast, that your application is headed for investigatory processing, and months of delay, or even worse, a referral to a CJ for a hearing, which would mean a very long delay . . . and if it goes to a CJ hearing, the burden of proof is on YOU, NO guarantee that meeting the requirement, as a matter of what happened in fact, will be enough. And, to be clear, meeting the requirement in fact will NOT be enough if a CJ concludes you fell short of PROVING it.

In particular . . .

I applied on 1096 day but the application was filled on 1095 day.

That means if there is any doubt about just one day, and YOU come up short meeting the BURDEN of PROVING EVERY day, you are not qualified for a grant of citizenship.

There is no cutting it closer than that.

So even if you are more than confident, even if you are totally CERTAIN that on the date you made the application for citizenship, that was the 1096th day you were physically present in Canada, that means you applied with exactly 1095 days of presence (the day the application is made does not count). What you know is important of course. But what is far more important is that to be qualified for a grant of citizenship an applicant MUST PROVE they met the physical presence requirement as of the day the application was made.

As a Denzel Washington character in a cop movie said: "Ain't what you know, it's what you can prove." Just a line in a cop movie? No, it's how it is a lot of time. Usually you can prove what you know. And in the context of applying for citizenship, even if in this or that particular case IRCC needs to look more closely to be sure, the corroborating information is sufficient to rely on what is reported by the applicant without actually requiring the applicant to affirmatively prove each and every day.

But if IRCC has some question, and requires the applicant to meet their burden of proving physical presence by a balance of probabilities, what you know is NOT good enough if you cannot prove it.

Leading to . . . the back and forth about indications that physical presence had been verified, no concerns, but then . . .

I am no expert. And I am especially far from sure of the particular procedural steps taken on your application. But it looks quite possible that the Processing Agent who handled your application relied on your physical presence calculation, but of course then the application has to be reviewed by a Citizenship Officer who makes the formal determination, and the Citizenship Officer has, at the least, some concerns.

I have received Entry and Exit data from CBSA, which aligns perfectly with the information I provided them. I am confident that I have fulfilled the requirement of being present for 1095 days.

However, I noticed a discrepancy after I applied for citizenship. Two weeks after applying, I took a long weekend trip to the States via land. Strangely, the CBSA records only display my entry date, not the exit date. I suspect this might be causing a delay in my application process.

My concern is how to rectify this situation. Interestingly, the entry date on my I94 form doesn't match (it shows an entry on the following day).

Suggestion and advice please!

Generally an attempt to precisely parse what someone reports here is more a distraction than helpful.

But since you applied with EXACTLY 1095 days physical presence, so that doubt as to even ONE day could mean this application is denied, no percentages in dodging being absolutely precise. To be clear, if there is doubt about just ONE day, meaning if there is just one day out of 1095 that IRCC concludes you do not prove your physical presence, the case must go to a CJ, and if the CJ is not convinced YOU meet the burden of PROVING all 1095 days, the CJ will then NECESSARILY have to deny the application.


So . . . WHICH IS IT . . .
. . . data from CBSA, which aligns perfectly with the information I provided them . . . OR
. . . I noticed a discrepancy after I applied for citizenship . . .

Sorry about being so picky. But your application hangs on EVERY SINGLE DAY you claim counts, and a "discrepancy" means something does not "align perfectly."

No need to explain to me. As I said, I doubt I can offer you much in the way of suggesting how you should handle this going forward.

Not clear to me whether you are referring to a discrepancy in what you reported or a discrepancy in CBSA records occurring in regards to a trip AFTER you applied. Again, not suggesting you sort this out here.

I am drilling into this detail to help you recognize that having applied with no buffer, and it appearing that NOT everything is perfectly aligned, it is UP to YOU to figure out, FOR YOURSELF, how to proceed from here, whether to ride this out, see how it goes, or to dig into the precise details enough to decide whether it is time to cut bait . . . withdraw and re-apply.

So, back to that "discrepancy." Actually, the way you state it here, you seem to be saying there was a trip to the states that took place AFTER you applied. So that would not be a discrepancy in anything you reported in your application.

So, why would that cause some concern? Especially if the U.S. records show an entry into the U.S., reflecting an exit from Canada, AFTER you applied for citizenship, even if for the wrong day nonetheless corroborating presence in Canada until then. Which IRCC should be able to readily verify even if not explicitly in your CBSA travel history.

Again . . . I am NOT trying to sort this stuff out. There are too many maybe this, maybe that, or that or this.

So here is one thing, which might NOT be the thing, first thing that matters, and it matters more importantly than anything else: the travel history you reported is complete and accurate, based on the dates you actually left and returned to Canada. Good sign if that aligns with CBSA records. But that is NOT what really matters. Dates you actually physically left and dates you actually physically arrived, those matter the most.

Maybe it would be worth your while to review all your evidence of travel to make sure you got each and every day precisely accounted for. Forget the CBSA travel history, but rather focus on what YOUR records verify, what YOU can PROVE.

But even then, if you have continued to live in Canada since applying and your total days here would be a lot more, now, that 1095, you might still want to seriously consider whether to incur the additional cost in order to save time by withdrawing and re-applying. Up to YOU.

 

[phewphew]

@dpenabill Hi there, I wanted to express my appreciation for your response. Thank you for taking the time to reach out to me.

I now feel more assured knowing that the information I provided in my application is entirely accurate.

This is precisely what I meant by "discrepancy." For instance:

On 15th February, I entered Canada.
On 15th March, I became eligible for citizenship after 1095 days and applied.
On 20th March, there is no record of my exit from Canada to USA in the CBSA records.
On 24th March, I re-entered Canada.

Given the absence of a record for 20th March, I believe even after the GCMS note states Physical Prence Verified Yes-No Concern, it is being held for the missing exit date.

Additionally, while my Google Timeline shows travel to the United States on 20th March, my I94 indicates entry into the USA on 21st March.

I'm unsure whether it's necessary to correct the inaccurate information in the CBSA records or the I94. If it is necessary, could you advise me on the process to rectify it?

 

[dpenabill]

@phewphew --

The nature and scope of IRCC's further inquiry into your physical presence now depends on internal IRCC decision-making. For now your influence in how it goes is limited to what you have already submitted. IRRC will request more information or documents if there is anything more you need to provide.

THUS . . . NO need to submit further information at this stage. NO need to send information to CBSA (to supplement the record to include your statement, your version, as to date of return not otherwise reflected in the record). NO need to submit further information to IRCC unless they ask for more. Nothing you submit now (unless IRCC asks for more information or documents) is likely to have any impact on the scope of further inquiry.

There is not much, well essentially nothing you can do to influence what happens next . . . well, except negatively (like doing something that constitutes a prohibition).

Your choice, now, is whether to wait, or whether to withdraw and re-apply. Actually I already said as much in my previous post, unpersuasively it appears. I am likely to repeat as much again. And elaborate . . . like right here, now . . .

Decision-making options:

Your decision-making options at this stage are not complicated, and it is largely a personal choice. No one here, and certainly not me, can say what is the best approach for you. But I can say that basically there are two options: Wait or Re-apply. What to do now is up to YOU. In more detail, the options are:

-- just wait to see what happens (could be a week, or weeks, or months, or longer), and respond accordingly, or ​

​

-- wait to see what happens, respond accordingly, AND in the meantime gather and organize, and prepare to present as much proof of being present in Canada YOU HAVE; that is, prepare for a full blown Residency Case in which YOU do your best to present evidence that will suffice to PROVE your presence in Canada, or​

​

-- withdraw this application and re-apply​

I am NO expert, but I have been closely following residency/presence cases in both citizenship application processing and PR residency obligation enforcement for a decade and a half . . . so, even though it appears to be at the risk of following in the footsteps of Don Quixote, I will offer some further observations:

@dpenabill Hi there, I wanted to express my appreciation for your response. Thank you for taking the time to reach out to me. . . .
. . . I'm unsure whether it's necessary to correct the inaccurate information in the CBSA records or the I94. If it is necessary, could you advise me on the process to rectify it?

It is not clear to me that you are actually interested in my input. After all I clearly responded to this question in the post you thank me for:

Forget the CBSA travel history, but rather focus on what YOUR records verify, what YOU can PROVE.

There is nothing to be gained by submitting a request to CBSA to add to the record your information about a return to Canada on a date after you applied for citizenship.

Sure, nothing to lose by doing that either.

The thing to understand is that even if that is what triggered more inquiry, in regards to whatever further processing of your citizenship application there is, that detail now has very little if any significance at all.

It is worth noting that it is NOT likely that detail, that omission/discrepancy in the CBSA record, is what triggered more inquiry, at least not in itself (the fact you applied claiming exactly 1095 days of physical presence credit almost certainly was a bigger factor), but again even if an omission as to the date of return to Canada in CBSA records was what caused a Citizenship Officer to have sufficient concerns for IRCC to make further inquiry into verifying your physical presence, that inquiry is NOW about verifying at least 1095 days of physical presence in Canada during your five year eligibility period.

Another reason why it is not clear you are actually looking for real information, honest input from me is this:

I now feel more assured knowing that the information I provided in my application is entirely accurate.

and then you went on to further address what you meant by "discrepancy."

But what I had posted, in regard to the discrepancy (which I understood despite it being a reference to an omission not an inconsistency), is:

No need to explain to me.

In further reference to the omission/discrepancy, I also stated: "I am NOT trying to sort this stuff out." Rather, that post makes it quite clear that what matters is whether the totality of your information and what IRCC can verify establishes at least 1095 days of physical presence.

Moreover, in regards to how confident or certain, no matter how much "more assured" YOU are about your physical presence, my previous post emphatically stated it is NOT what YOU know, if IRCC has questions and requires you to prove your physical presence, it is what you can prove.

I do not mean to cavalierly underestimate, let alone callously disregard your confidence in the calculation of days you were physically present. The good news is that this means that after further inquiry there is a decent chance IRCC will conclude you met the requirements, approve your application, and schedule you to take the oath. How long that process will take is uncertain. That could happen quickly. Or not so quickly.

And your certainty as to the numbers also means you should be able to marshal the evidence that will prove your physical presence. That could be a big deal, what makes the difference, if you stay with this application the whole way.

Unfortunately, however, if your application is referred into processing as a "residency case," or "presence case," just the process of conducting further inquiry could mean it will take numerous months more. And there is a risk the case goes to a Citizenship Judge which would for sure mean no resolution for many months, perhaps a year or more. And if it goes to a Citizenship Judge, in order for the application to get approved you will need to go to a hearing and YOU will need to present sufficient evidence that proves, beyond a balance of probabilities, 1095 days of actual physical presence.

If a case goes to a CJ hearing, be aware that even though inferences of presence between known dates of entry and next date of exit can carry significant weight, the applicant will need to provide substantial evidence proving actual presence between those dates.


The Overall Situation:

The overall situation is not complicated. In making further inquiry into information relevant to assessing your physical presence IRCC may be satisfied and soon schedule you to take the oath. Or IRCC may refer the case for a more formal investigation, in which event there will likely be a lengthy delay before you find out what's next.

If there is a referral for a "residency case" investigation, the possibilities are:

-- after the investigation is completed, IRCC approves the application and schedules you for the oath, OR​

-- IRCC refers your case to a Citizenship Judge, who after a hearing will determine if you have met the burden of proving the physical presence requirement was met​

There is probably (hard to say though) still a good or at least decent chance this will be resolved relatively soon, that after reviewing all the relevant information IRCC concludes you met the requirements and schedules the oath. Could happen soon, or in weeks, or a few months.

If, however, your application is referred for a more formal investigation, best outcome is it will be delayed by at least several if not many months, and if it goes to a CJ hearing that could easily mean it takes another year. Despite how certain you are about the presence numbers, no guarantee that means the application will be approved after a CJ hearing. Just plain too close to call if it gets to that stage.

No one here, and certainly not me, can say what you should do. It is up to you. But as I have said, repeatedly, the choices are not complicated It's all about WAITING or RE-APPLYING.

No one here can reliably say where this is headed, what will happen next. You have about as much information as you can get that will help YOU decide whether to WAIT or RE-APPLY. Again, YOUR choice. Wait or withdraw and re-apply.

I may revisit this and offer even more, longer observations, mostly to explain some of what is under-the-hood, so to say. For now, again, I am mostly explaining why what @scylla said about seriously considering withdrawing and re-applying makes sense and itself should be taken seriously.