Immigration lawyers - strange advice re: marriage?

[InquiringMinds]

Immigration lawyers - strange advice re: marriage?

Hi all,

Have a question about a direction that we were given by a well-known, reputable immigration law firm - it just strikes me as extremely odd and hence wanted to see what people with more experience than I think about the situation:

My fiancée and I have known each other for slightly over 2.5 years. She's an EU citizen and have come to visit myself in Canada several times now, for 4 months, 2 weeks and now for almost 6 months (she just left). We've also extensively travelled together across the world in this 2.5 years and have no trouble showing that we REALLY spent a lot of time with each other. We recently got engaged and are getting married this spring. I know that our case is very straightforward (and the law firm has told us exactly the same thing), but we still decided that it's worth an extra expense and decided to employ the lawyers and let them handle the formalities, etc. Our plan is to do this:

1. For her to come back to Canada in the next few months and then we'll go and get married in a city hall here.

2. A few weeks later, we'll leave to go to Europe and will have a second wedding there with a whole bunch of friends attending, family, etc. This will be a NON legally-binding wedding (i.e. with a celebrant).

3. Right after we'll fly back to Canada, together. This is where things get cloudy - the immigration lawyers have advised us that when she's asked for a purpose of her visit, she is to say exactly what the purpose is. Namely, that she just got married and we're about to apply for a PR. They say that this is perfectly normal and her odds of getting in on that pretense (and them filing the PR papers immediately after) are excellent.

I can't stop wondering whether something like this would really work? Would the border agents really buy that and admit her? On one side I trust that a very reputable law firm (by all accounts) should know what they're doing, but on the other side this advice makes me cringe.

Your thoughts on the above and the validity of their statement would be greatly appreciated - thanks!

P.S. We do want to apply inland, not outland - while I know that it is a possible option, it's something I would rather not explore at this point.

 

[Ponga]

Well, who am I to second guess what your `well-known, reputable immigration law firm' is advising you to do, but...the majority of posts that I've read [here] strongly advise against proclaiming that a spouse is moving to Canada, especially before an application for sponsorship has been submitted.

Most, seem to have their spouse `visit' them in Canada as they prepare the Inland application. Once she's here, she should not plan to leave Canada until the entire PR process is complete. Failure to comply with this Inland requirement could be catastrophic is she is denied re-entry.

Again, I'm sure your lawyer knows what s/he is talking about, but having her `visit' you might be an easier sell at the border.

Good luck.

 

[InquiringMinds]

Thanks! That's exactly it - while I never dealt with anything immigration-related, stating that you're coming to apply for a PR at the border just seems like a bad idea to me.

As far as not leaving Canada goes, we know about it and while it's not ideal, it's something we can deal with.

 

[canuck_in_uk]

3. Right after we'll fly back to Canada, together. This is where things get cloudy - the immigration lawyers have advised us that when she's asked for a purpose of her visit, she is to say exactly what the purpose is. Namely, that she just got married and we're about to apply for a PR. They say that this is perfectly normal and her odds of getting in on that pretense (and them filing the PR papers immediately after) are excellent.

P.S. We do want to apply inland, not outland - while I know that it is a possible option, it's something I would rather not explore at this point.

Hi

First off, I advise you to do the application yourself and skip the lawyer. It is a fairly straightforward process, guides and checklists to follow, this forum to help. There is no reason to spend thousands of dollars on a lawyer.

Second, not sure why you say outland is not an option to explore at this point, as it's most likely a much better option than inland. EU offices are all much faster than inland. You should really research each option.

At the border, if your wife is going to say that she is visiting you while applying for sponsorship, I strongly advise you to at least have the fee receipt as proof of your intention to apply. If you don't have that, it would be better to not mention sponsorship unless specifically asked.

 

[sunshinemrc]

Hi

First off, I advise you to do the application yourself and skip the lawyer. It is a fairly straightforward process, guides and checklists to follow, this forum to help. There is no reason to spend thousands of dollars on a lawyer.

Second, not sure why you say outland is not an option to explore at this point, as it's most likely a much better option than inland. EU offices are all much faster than inland. You should really research each option.

At the border, if your wife is going to say that she is visiting you while applying for sponsorship, I strongly advise you to at least have the fee receipt as proof of your intention to apply. If you don't have that, it would be better to not mention sponsorship unless specifically asked.

Agreed that outland is almost always a better option. But check with the forum members for which VO you would go through as not all EU offices are speedy. Vienna is really slow as they process a lot of non EU apps.

 

[canuck_in_uk]

Agreed that outland is almost always a better option. But check with the forum members for which VO you would go through as not all EU offices are speedy. Vienna is really slow as they process a lot of non EU apps.

Had a look at all the European VOs before I posted, all are posting processing times that are at least 5 months faster than inland. Bucharest, Romania currently has the longest posted processing time at 14 months.

Vienna is not an office I'm too familiar with but is currently showing 13 months; are quite a lot of apps taking longer than that?

 

[Rob_TO]

Vienna is not an office I'm too familiar with but is currently showing 13 months; are quite a lot of apps taking longer than that?

Those are 80% stats. So basically 20% of apps from Vienna are taking over 13 months. 80% of apps are done in less than 13 months.

The 50% time for Vienna which is more an "average", is 8 months.

 

[sunshinemrc]

Those are 80% stats. So basically 20% of apps from Vienna are taking over 13 months. 80% of apps are done in less than 13 months.

The 50% time for Vienna which is more an "average", is 8 months.

This is what I know based on the Vienna Office thread. Here is the link to their spreadsheet. Based on opinions on their thread it seems that Vienna has slowed down considerably. I understand that the below may not be accurate, however based on checking different VO's a precedent for Vienna has been set now as being one of the slower VOs in EU.

For example Paris shows 9 months, but a great majority of straightforward apps are dealt with within 4-5 months. I can tell you personally, my husband got a call from Paris 3 weeks after they received his app (late December) , to ask 3 or 4 questions about how we met, date of our marriage. About 15 minutes later they called him to say they will not need an interview and to wait for further instructions from their office.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AjvSDmSjyQZ0dE5DZk9Ua2ViTDRGZXhrM0w3V2xtdVE#gid=0

 

[canuck_in_uk]

Those are 80% stats. So basically 20% of apps from Vienna are taking over 13 months. 80% of apps are done in less than 13 months.

The 50% time for Vienna which is more an "average", is 8 months.

I'm very familiar with that Rob, I've explained it myself to a few newbies .

sunshinemrc's post seemed to imply that many apps through Vienna were taking longer than expected, i.e. longer than the average, closer to the posted time. That is what I was asking.

 

[Avadava]

This is what I think. Your lawyer might be right given you situation. You say you are planning for her to come to Canada as a visitor, get married, then leave to Europe for a short trip, then come back to Canada again. I don't think any border/immigration agent will ever believe she is a visitor the second time she arrives after the trip to Europe.
You could get into more trouble by not saying the truth. No genuine tourist/visitor comes back after a short time. Don't underestimate their intelligence by claiming she is "just visiting" again.
I know of this case of a Korean woman who flew into Canada with her Canadian fiance with the intention to get married and apply for PR. During a regular luggage check, they discovered farewell cards from her family and friends. She insisted she is just a visitor because that's what her fiance told her to say. They didn't believe and grilled for almost 2 hours. In the end, she caved in and told them the truth, they let her enter Canada and gave her a 1 year visa, adding that she should have told the truth from the beginning.
In my opinion, you should tell them the truth, just like your lawyer advised you. About the inland vs. outland application, it depends which one is more convenient for you. The outland route is faster but she cannot work during the process and she will have to maintain her visitor status. With the inland route she can apply for a working permit together with the application, so when the stage 1 gets approved, she will be able to work.

I know people are saying that you shouldn't tell them she is moving to Canada, which I agree. But that doesn't mean your only other option is to pretend to be just a visitor. There is something in between, which is much closer to the truth. Tell them she will be staying with you while awaiting the PR process. Bring your marriage certificate and show them that. If you can pay the fees for the application in advance, this will also be a plus, you can show them the receipt.

 

[Rob_TO]

I'm very familiar with that Rob, I've explained it myself to a few newbies .

sunshinemrc's post seemed to imply that many apps through Vienna were taking longer than expected, i.e. longer than the average, closer to the posted time. That is what I was asking.

Ya the problem with those posted times, is they are always out of date. If recent changes were made in the Vienna office that resulted in slower processing, then we wouldn't see the stats updated for several months later. If more and more apps are going towards the 80% times, then the 80% posted time may stay the same but we would see the 50% times increasing.

To the OP here, their application seems very simple and straightforward so I would basically recommend the opposite of what they are doing.
1. Don't use a lawyer, unless you are incapable of filling out forms or have an extra $3,000+ lying around that you just really don't want
2. Apply outland, and stay in Canada as a visitor. Then the applicant won't feel like a prisoner in Canada for 2 years, or get stressed if they do travel about getting denied re-entry and having the app cancelled

 

[keesio]

Avadava's advice seems to be the best one. From what I have heard, CIC will usually not deny people from visa-exempt countries even if they say they would like to spend time with their spouse in Canada while the application is in process or apply inland. They will give you a 1yr visitor visa.

The only thing is the inland vs outland thing for visa-exempt nationals. The consensus seems to be outland.

 

[InquiringMinds]

Thanks for the excellent advice - much appreciated... I'll investigate the outland option then - unfortunately the Vienna office is the one that she'd need to use, but still definitely something worth looking into!

Once again, a big thank you!!

 

[zardoz]

Just to add my experiences, albeit in reverse...

My wife and I married in the UK in a "Register Office" (City Hall to you).
We then applied for her to come as a sponsored spouse to the UK.
Before she "landed" in the UK, we had a full blown "Blessing" in Toronto with all the church stuff, white dress, guests etc.

Nobody batted an eyelid at this, so it seems to be not that uncommon.

 

[canadianwoman]

To reiterate: the law firm is not suggesting she tell the border agent she is moving to Canada.
When she comes back in, she is visiting. People from a visa-exempt country rarely have problems. Having some proof you have or will soon apply for her PR will help: you can at least pay the fees up front and get the receipt.