IMM5406E Additional Family Members--Child Adopted by Someone Else

[Caroliner1978]

Hi yet again, all...

Firstly, I would like to profusely thank all of you who have read and/or responded to any of my myriad questions before--I'm starting to feel like I'm annoying people with so many posts I try to pay it forward and answer some myself, when I'm pretty sure I have correct info (though I have been corrected a couple of times). Anyway, every time I feel like we have everything sorted, there is just "one last" loose end that presents itself. I am hoping this is the very last "one last" loose end.

The short version of the question is: If my husband's former daughter (who has been adopted by her maternal grandparents, who he cannot get to respond to contact) is listed on Form IMM5406E Additional Family Members (which requires him to list her under Section B Children), how can we prove that she is no longer his child, and is therefore not a non-accompanying dependent child? (Background below)

Alrighty--here goes... My husband is American and we are doing inland. My husband had a daughter in 2002. He went to court, the mother was deemed unfit, and he ended up getting full custody. He and his daughter lived in New Orleans and my husband's mother helped him out (his father was already deceased). Then hurricane Katrina happened in 2005. Everything in New Orleans was trashed and there was no work, so my husband left his 3-year-old daughter with her mother's parents (who were the only ones capable of caring for her at the time), and went to Las Vegas where he could get work (he is a Stagehand).

New Orleans was pretty screwed up for a long time, and despite wanting to return to his daughter, my husband could not find work there. In 2007, my husband's mother passed away, leaving him with absolutely no support system. By this point, his daughter had been living with her maternal grandparents for 2 years. They suggested they would adopt her, if my husband voluntarily relinquished his parental rights. My husband's daughter was in a stable home environment, and was used to it. He felt he could not support his daughter financially, and no longer had help with other aspects of support from his mother. Given all of this, he decided to voluntarily relinquish his parental rights and his daughter's maternal grandparents adopted her. It was a difficult thing to do, but he felt it was the best thing for his daughter.

Now... He legally has no child anymore, and the IRPA definition clearly states a dependent child "is the biological child of the parent, if the child has not been adopted by a person other than the spouse or common-law partner of the parent." Since his daughter has been adopted by someone other than his spouse (me), we know she is not a dependent child and does not need to be included on this application in that sense. And in this case we wouldn't even have to mention her.......

BUT...

Form IMM5406E Additional Family Members requires him to list her under Section B Children. The guide specifically states that you must list "any of your children who have been adopted by others."

I think it's pretty crazy he has to list someone who is not related to him in any way (legally this is how it is now--that's the way adoption works--it's made so it's like he never even existed as her father). But regardless, we of course do not want any misrepresentation to happen, so from the way I have read this, I'm pretty sure she has to be listed on this form.

So, the question is... If she is on this form, they know she exists--how the hell do we prove she is no longer his daughter, and therefore not a non-accompanying dependent child that must be included in the application? He has no paperwork regarding the adoption. He can't get anything regarding it, either--once an adoption is finalized in Louisiana everything to do with it is sealed up in the records forever--like it never even happened. No one can access it. Ever.

We know she is not his dependent child. But once we mention her (which according to my interpretation of what the guide states, we must on this form)... yes, we can write an explanation. But I feel like they will want some kind of proof that he relinquished his parental rights and this adoption took place. They surely aren't just going to take his word for it.

I have considered that they might accept something from his daughter's maternal grandparents (an affidavit or something attesting to the fact that this all happened). BUT, my husband does not have any contact with them anymore (he sends birthday and holiday wishes to his daughter, but never gets a response, and has even tried emailing the grandmother about speaking on the phone with his daughter, but never gets a response), so I highly doubt they would even respond at all to such a request, even to say no they won't do it. That child is legally their child, not his in any way, and they have every right to simply ignore my husband (sadly). The grandparents might still have some adoption paperwork hanging around their house but... they won't respond to him at all, let alone do him any favours.

Given the above, I have considered that he could do a Statutory Declaration attesting to the fact that all this happened. This can be done for the severance of former common-law relationships without the involvement of the other party at all--and I'm pretty sure that is because there is no documentation of such a relationship ending, and it could be impossible for one to have them involved (you can't find your former common-law partner years later, or they refuse to help you out with this, or flat out ignore you). This case is also the legal severance of a relationship with the absence of any documentation, where it is impossible to have the other parties involved in a declaration.

If a notarized Statutory Declaration won't do... what the heck else would? I am thinking to just do this, and if it's not enough for them, they will ask specifically for something else (although I really can't think of a single other thing they could request that is possible to attain).

I haven't seen any other posts on here with a similar situation... and I think this is likely a pretty rare circumstance... But if anyone out there has any ideas about this, I would be eternally grateful for your insight.

Thank you all for reading <3

 

[Caroliner1978]

Oh gawwwd... no ideas? :'(

 

[danawhitaker]

Hi yet again, all...

Firstly, I would like to profusely thank all of you who have read and/or responded to any of my myriad questions before--I'm starting to feel like I'm annoying people with so many posts I try to pay it forward and answer some myself, when I'm pretty sure I have correct info (though I have been corrected a couple of times). Anyway, every time I feel like we have everything sorted, there is just "one last" loose end that presents itself. I am hoping this is the very last "one last" loose end.

The short version of the question is: If my husband's former daughter (who has been adopted by her maternal grandparents, who he cannot get to respond to contact) is listed on Form IMM5406E Additional Family Members (which requires him to list her under Section B Children), how can we prove that she is no longer his child, and is therefore not a non-accompanying dependent child? (Background below)

Alrighty--here goes... My husband is American and we are doing inland. My husband had a daughter in 2002. He went to court, the mother was deemed unfit, and he ended up getting full custody. He and his daughter lived in New Orleans and my husband's mother helped him out (his father was already deceased). Then hurricane Katrina happened in 2005. Everything in New Orleans was trashed and there was no work, so my husband left his 3-year-old daughter with her mother's parents (who were the only ones capable of caring for her at the time), and went to Las Vegas where he could get work (he is a Stagehand).

New Orleans was pretty screwed up for a long time, and despite wanting to return to his daughter, my husband could not find work there. In 2007, my husband's mother passed away, leaving him with absolutely no support system. By this point, his daughter had been living with her maternal grandparents for 2 years. They suggested they would adopt her, if my husband voluntarily relinquished his parental rights. My husband's daughter was in a stable home environment, and was used to it. He felt he could not support his daughter financially, and no longer had help with other aspects of support from his mother. Given all of this, he decided to voluntarily relinquish his parental rights and his daughter's maternal grandparents adopted her. It was a difficult thing to do, but he felt it was the best thing for his daughter.

Now... He legally has no child anymore, and the IRPA definition clearly states a dependent child "is the biological child of the parent, if the child has not been adopted by a person other than the spouse or common-law partner of the parent." Since his daughter has been adopted by someone other than his spouse (me), we know she is not a dependent child and does not need to be included on this application in that sense. And in this case we wouldn't even have to mention her.......

BUT...

Form IMM5406E Additional Family Members requires him to list her under Section B Children. The guide specifically states that you must list "any of your children who have been adopted by others."

I think it's pretty crazy he has to list someone who is not related to him in any way (legally this is how it is now--that's the way adoption works--it's made so it's like he never even existed as her father). But regardless, we of course do not want any misrepresentation to happen, so from the way I have read this, I'm pretty sure she has to be listed on this form.

So, the question is... If she is on this form, they know she exists--how the hell do we prove she is no longer his daughter, and therefore not a non-accompanying dependent child that must be included in the application? He has no paperwork regarding the adoption. He can't get anything regarding it, either--once an adoption is finalized in Louisiana everything to do with it is sealed up in the records forever--like it never even happened. No one can access it. Ever.

We know she is not his dependent child. But once we mention her (which according to my interpretation of what the guide states, we must on this form)... yes, we can write an explanation. But I feel like they will want some kind of proof that he relinquished his parental rights and this adoption took place. They surely aren't just going to take his word for it.

I have considered that they might accept something from his daughter's maternal grandparents (an affidavit or something attesting to the fact that this all happened). BUT, my husband does not have any contact with them anymore (he sends birthday and holiday wishes to his daughter, but never gets a response, and has even tried emailing the grandmother about speaking on the phone with his daughter, but never gets a response), so I highly doubt they would even respond at all to such a request, even to say no they won't do it. That child is legally their child, not his in any way, and they have every right to simply ignore my husband (sadly). The grandparents might still have some adoption paperwork hanging around their house but... they won't respond to him at all, let alone do him any favours.

Given the above, I have considered that he could do a Statutory Declaration attesting to the fact that all this happened. This can be done for the severance of former common-law relationships without the involvement of the other party at all--and I'm pretty sure that is because there is no documentation of such a relationship ending, and it could be impossible for one to have them involved (you can't find your former common-law partner years later, or they refuse to help you out with this, or flat out ignore you). This case is also the legal severance of a relationship with the absence of any documentation, where it is impossible to have the other parties involved in a declaration.

If a notarized Statutory Declaration won't do... what the heck else would? I am thinking to just do this, and if it's not enough for them, they will ask specifically for something else (although I really can't think of a single other thing they could request that is possible to attain).

I haven't seen any other posts on here with a similar situation... and I think this is likely a pretty rare circumstance... But if anyone out there has any ideas about this, I would be eternally grateful for your insight.

Thank you all for reading <3

My suggestion would be to consult a reputable immigration lawyer. My husband and I have been kicking this scenario over on voice chat for the last 20 minutes and we can't come up with any better suggestion than that. That's definitely an interesting dilemma.

 

[Caroliner1978]

*sigh*

It can't be that strange though... I mean... They actually say you have to list children who have been adopted by others. So this must be a thing that comes up.

I feel like the devil might be in the details here--list YOUR child who has been adopted by others. She legally isn't HIS child. Maybe she doesn't have to be on this form at all... But then in what scenario would you be able to list a child that is YOURS who has been adopted by others (which makes that child NOT yours). Maybe it means something else??

 

[CDNPR2014]

are there no public records of him relenquishing his rights? if he signed paperwork, wouldn't he have been given a copy? I would imagine there is some court record of this, so it may be worth contacting the courthouse. or is EVERYTHING sealed?

if nothing is available, i thing the best course of action to take would be to list the child on the form, writing "unknown" for current address and provide a letter of explation that shows the records are sealed and it is impossible to get anything about it. i'd recommend also getting a letter from the courthouse confirming this fact.

 

[danawhitaker]

*sigh*

It can't be that strange though... I mean... They actually say you have to list children who have been adopted by others. So this must be a thing that comes up.

I feel like the devil might be in the details here--list YOUR child who has been adopted by others. She legally isn't HIS child. Maybe she doesn't have to be on this form at all... But then in what scenario would you be able to list a child that is YOURS who has been adopted by others (which makes that child NOT yours). Maybe it means something else??

I think it means what you think it means. They want to know of any and all biological children of the principal applicant, regardless of where they are. I re-read the part of the guide referring to that last night and it seems pretty clear. The people I know who've personally given a child up for adoption are either in an open adoption situation where they still have contact with the child on a regular basis or had absolutely no contact with the child or the adoptive family whatsoever after birth and don't have any idea where the child is or what its name is.

Or perhaps the people who adopted her would be willing to give documentation that would corroborate the story if they knew why he was asking for it. If they don't want her having contact with him, they may view it as an opportunity to have him out of her life more permanently. It might be worth pursuing.

If going to a lawyer wouldn't be a feasible option financially, I would put the information in the form and explain, in detail, on an additional sheet. A person cannot provide what one doesn't know. My dad had all kinds of kids with women other than my mom before and after I was born, and I don't know the details of any of them, but I still had to list something under the siblings section even though I've never had any contact with any of his family or him since I was 14 years old. I also had to put my mother on that form, even though she's deceased. They don't ask me to provide documentation (such as a death certificate) to back that claim up. My assumption would be that they maybe have ways of digging for some of that information if necessary in order to verify whether something was true.

 

[Caroliner1978]

Of course he signed paperwork relinquishing his parental rights. But of course he doesn't have a copy anymore : I'm not sure if that's public record, or part of the adoption.

The tricky thing about this is that we can't really put "unknown" without lying. He can get their address and phone number.

But as you said, dana, they don't ask for documentation to prove deceased parents up front (if they require that at all). And I also have found no instructions pertaining to proving your child was adopted by someone else--they just ask you to list them. So perhaps it's just best to wait and see if they ask for documentation about this. Our application isn't incomplete--they haven't asked anywhere in the instructions to include documentation about your child who has been adopted by others up front (unless they are dum-dums and think we omitted all the stuff for her as a dependent child--which she isn't one).

So if they want something, they will ask for it?? At least then we will know what they want (instead of just guessing right now). We will include an explanation, and try to track down what we can in the meantime, in case they ask.

The only question I have though, is will this weirdness affect my husband's OWP? We need to get this app in ASAP so he can get the OWP ASAP. If they somehow think the sponsorship app is incomplete or something, will that screw up the OWP app? If he can't get working soon, I'm gonna have to give birth and go back to my crappy Timmy's job the very next day I really don't want to have to do that :'(

I am hoping they just send the OWP app on through, as soon as I'm approved as a sponsor, and don't get into the nitty-gritty details like all of this until later.