How to provide proof of Canadian business employment, if you are the owner?

[ansh2017]

Hi all,

Little background:
My dad's PR expires April 2018. Our family is on PR since June 2008. There is no problem for me and my mom's PR as my mom has been working here since 8 years and have never left Canada other than for couple of vacations. And I have never left Canada as I was studying here, and in June graduated with a degree. I am also applying for Citizenship this month.

However, for my father, he has not been working in the past 5 years. The recession had hit our family badly, as he is an engineer was unable to find work at all. He had founded a company (in Canada) a while ago, but in 2014, he started working for the company as a way of trying to self-employ and many money for himself. He developed a technology (industrial scale) and has often gone back and forth to India for manufacturing/presenting his technology/trying to get an order for his technology/meetings with finance people, governments, etc.

In the PR renewal application, Situation 2 allows to use employed by Canadian business days towards 730 days. It asks to provide proof of employment. In our case, how can we provide proof of employment if he himself is the owner/founder and is the one who developed the technology and is working towards it?

I have read this on cic site, Situation 2: https://www.canada.ca/en/immigratio...renewal-change-sex-designation.html#appendixA

He has submitted tax (his own + business) all these years. We also have the business certificate.

My question is, what are the things we can provide for proof? Would his negotiations in India with government etc. his presentations, the technology we have developed - its photos of prototypes, the actual technology pilot project, the reports etc help?

Could we do anything under, Humanitarian and compassionate grounds? If they consider us for that, since we has strong family ties here in Canada. Any help would be great! Thank you.

 

[mats]

Hi all,

Little background:

Could we do anything under, Humanitarian and compassionate grounds? If they consider us for that, since we has strong family ties here in Canada. Any help would be great! Thank you.

Has your dad fulfilled his residency obligations? that is, has he stayed in Canada 730 days or more? From your post, I have a doubt he hasn't so I am clarifying. Secondly, working for own company and being abroad doesn't count towards RO by saying he was working for Canadian corporation abroad. For proof of stay in Canada, he can show his credit card statements, and any bills in his name.
If in case, he hasn't met his RO, then my opinion is to voluntarily give up on his PR and let your mom sponsor him for a new permanent residency application. That maybe faster that going the H & C route. After he gives up his PR, he can apply for visitor visa and stay with you all in Canada while his PR application is in process.
The H&C process is long and if you loose the appeal, then your mom has to start his PR process for after that point in time.

 

[scylla]

In the PR renewal application, Situation 2 allows to use employed by Canadian business days towards 730 days. It asks to provide proof of employment. In our case, how can we provide proof of employment if he himself is the owner/founder and is the one who developed the technology and is working towards it?

What the person above said. Your father cannot count time spent working outside of Canada towards the residency obligation since it's his own company. The clause above doesn't apply to him. He can only count days spent physically in Canada towards RO. So if he doesn't have 730 days in Canada in the last 5 years, he doesn't qualify for renewal. (If it was that easy, everyone would just set up their own companies and then live outside of Canada indefinitely.)

To apply for renewal under H&C - he has to prove he had strong H&C reasons for being unable to return to Canada. Economic and employment reasons aren't accepted.

 

[ansh2017]

Has your dad fulfilled his residency obligations? that is, has he stayed in Canada 730 days or more? From your post, I have a doubt he hasn't so I am clarifying. Secondly, working for own company and being abroad doesn't count towards RO by saying he was working for Canadian corporation abroad. For proof of stay in Canada, he can show his credit card statements, and any bills in his name.
If in case, he hasn't met his RO, then my opinion is to voluntarily give up on his PR and let your mom sponsor him for a new permanent residency application. That maybe faster that going the H & C route. After he gives up his PR, he can apply for visitor visa and stay with you all in Canada while his PR application is in process.
The H&C process is long and if you loose the appeal, then your mom has to start his PR process for after that point in time.

What the person above said. Your father cannot count time spent working outside of Canada towards the residency obligation since it's his own company. The clause above doesn't apply to him. He can only count days spent physically in Canada towards RO. So if he doesn't have 730 days in Canada in the last 5 years, he doesn't qualify for renewal. (If it was that easy, everyone would just set up their own companies and then live outside of Canada indefinitely.)

To apply for renewal under H&C - he has to prove he had strong H&C reasons for being unable to return to Canada. Economic and employment reasons aren't accepted.

Thank you for detailed reply. He has so far fulfilled 550 days. We will only apply once he finishes 730 days.

Thanks for clarifying about Canadian business employment. We were doubting it as well. While the business wasn't created just to meet his RO requirement but he is actually working to get business orders.

Question: So if he gives up his PR, and applies for a new one, would they look at his old records? As in his old PR record I mean.

Little more background:
We had applied for citizenship in 2013 as a family. He got RQ in 2014. All 3 of us gave exams and cleared it. But they said it will take time for dad as he has to appear in front of judge. So, after a lot of thought and also keeping other things in mind than just this, we withdrew our applications. Now, I alone will be applying for it this month.

 

[Rob_TO]

In the PR renewal application, Situation 2 allows to use employed by Canadian business days towards 730 days. It asks to provide proof of employment. In our case, how can we provide proof of employment if he himself is the owner/founder and is the one who developed the technology and is working towards it?

As mentioned above, this rule is meant for those employed by a Canadian business and transferred on a temporary basis outside Canada. Since your dad is the owner of the company he does not have an employer (he is the employer), so this rule will not apply to him at all.

Could we do anything under, Humanitarian and compassionate grounds? If they consider us for that, since we has strong family ties here in Canada. Any help would be great! Thank you.

You can try, but as the reason for not meeting the RO is due to him working for his company outside Canada, odds of success are probably low.

If he applies for a PR card renewal or PR Travel Document, there is a very high chance it will be rejected which will start process to revoke his PR status. If this happens the best course of action would probably be to simply let his PR status be terminated or voluntarily renounce it, and your mom can then simply sponsor him for PR again from scratch with a family class app. While the app is in progress, he could apply for a TRV to visit Canada (though no guarantee it will be granted).

Choosing to appeal any revoking of PR status would probably take much longer (can take 1-2 years for appeal date), cost more in legal fees, and still a high chance to ultimately end in rejection anyways.

 

[canuck78]

The 730 days have to be within the 5 years and it sound like has has been out of the country in the past couple of years so some of those 560 days may no longer be counted in the end. At this point he shouldn't leave the country since he doesn't meet his RO if he doesn't want to renounce his PR.

 

[ansh2017]

The 730 days have to be within the 5 years and it sound like has has been out of the country in the past couple of years so some of those 560 days may no longer be counted in the end. At this point he shouldn't leave the country since he doesn't meet his RO if he doesn't want to renounce his PR.

The 550 days are within the past 5 years. I have calculated it using the online physical presence calculator. And have accordingly put the application date as April 1, 2018. So it counted it from April 1, 2013.

 

[mats]

Thank you for detailed reply. He has so far fulfilled 550 days. We will only apply once he finishes 730 days.

Question: So if he gives up his PR, and applies for a new one, would they look at his old records? As in his old PR record I mean.
.

I am not very sure but I think based on my reading they may look up at old records but since he will be applying as family class( your mom being the sponsor) they will give him the PR unless some other factors like criminal records or something similar prevents him from getting PR.

 

[ansh2017]

I am not very sure but I think based on my reading they may look up at old records but since he will be applying as family class( your mom being the sponsor) they will give him the PR unless some other factors like criminal records or something similar prevents him from getting PR.

I see. There are no criminal records or anything of that sort for him that would prevent him.

Do you know what happens to his SIN card, drivers license, medical card, etc and also mainly his business since he is the founder if he gives up his PR?

If it's complicated keeping in mind his business would it be better to meet the 730 days requirement and then apply for renewal? And provide bank and credit card statements etc for proof?

 

[canuck78]

The 550 days are within the past 5 years. I have calculated it using the online physical presence calculator. And have accordingly put the application date as April 1, 2018. So it counted it from April 1, 2013.

Since he will not meet the RO by April 1st 2018 some of the days will no longer count from April 2013 on. The 730 days need to be within 5 years. It is a rolling total. If your father would like to keep is PR he just needs to stay in Canada for 180 more days plus whatever days no longer count from spring/summer/fall 2013.

 

[ansh2017]

Since he will not meet the RO by April 1st 2018 some of the days will no longer count from April 2013 on. The 730 days need to be within 5 years. It is a rolling total. If your father would like to keep is PR he just needs to stay in Canada for 180 more days plus whatever days no longer count from spring/summer/fall 2013.

Yes I understand that, that's why I said we would only apply once he finishes 730 days. That's what I meant. We would keep an eye on dates and rolling total ofcourse. I only gave current total for April 1, 2018.

 

[mats]

Yes I understand that, that's why I said we would only apply once he finishes 730 days. That's what I meant. We would keep an eye on dates and rolling total ofcourse. I only gave current total for April 1, 2018.

I feel there is an element of risk, particularly since his RQ incident re: the citizenship application. IRCC can always go back in past and find out that some period in past your dad didn’t fulfill his RO. So, it would be totally up to you all how you want to proceed.

 

[ansh2017]

I feel there is an element of risk, particularly since his RQ incident re: the citizenship application. IRCC can always go back in past and find out that some period in past your dad didn’t fulfill his RO. So, it would be totally up to you all how you want to proceed.

I see. I can't recall well during that time if he had fulfilled his RO. Coz I feel he had as otherwise we wouldn't apply for citizenship but still we had got RQ as he was employed in another country for couple of years that time.

Do you know what happens to his SIN card, drivers license, medical card, etc and also mainly his business since he is the founder if he gives up his PR?

If it's complicated keeping in mind his business would it be better to meet the 730 days requirement and then apply for renewal? And provide bank and credit card statements etc for proof?

Do you know anything with regards to my post #9 question? Is it better to fulfill 730 then? Coz as we speak we are on verge of getting business orders after all these years of hard work of startup. If giving up brings any issues for his SIN and business mainly, we can't afford that.

If any one else can suggest otherwise as to what they feel, please feel free post. Thank you.

 

[dpenabill]

There are many aspects and angles in this situation. Many variables. Many contingencies.

Overall, a PR who has not complied with the PR Residency Obligation is at RISK for losing PR status. But there are also a number of not just possible, but practically feasible paths to reduce the risks of losing PR status, to possibly avoid losing PR status.

If the PR can get to Canada without being reported, and then stay in Canada, and not apply for a new PR card, UNTIL the PR has cured the breach, that is until the PR has been in Canada for 730 plus days within the preceding five years, that will indeed allow the PR to keep his PR status.

Other scenarios, however, tend to be more complicated.

I will attempt to address some of the more salient directions this can go, but it needs to be emphasized that the specific details in the individual case, and a great many contingencies, can have a huge impact, and things can go in dramatically different directions depending on this or that factor, this or that happening along the way. Best someone like me can offer is some general observations about the RISKS and INFLUENCES, the relevant factors and how they MIGHT influence the direction things go, subject to a wide range of other influences pushing things in this or that other direction.


Impact of a potential prior PR RO breach:

IRCC can always go back in past and find out that some period in past your dad didn’t fulfill his RO.

I see. I can't recall well during that time if he had fulfilled his RO. Coz I feel he had as otherwise we wouldn't apply for citizenship but still we had got RQ as he was employed in another country for couple of years that time.

For the most part, a past breach of the PR Residency Obligation does NOT matter. A past breach has NO direct effect on a PR's status. Once a PR is in compliance with the PR RO, for sure a past breach is NOT relevant.

For purposes of assessing compliance with the PR RO itself, what matters is the five years previous to the date of the examination. What preceded that is simply NOT relevant. A prior breach (no matter how long) is NOT relevant.

Once the PR is in Canada for at least 730 days within the preceding five years, any previous breach of the PR RO is totally cured. (Caveat: once a PR is reported as in breach, days in Canada after that do not count as days in Canada.)

Past history might have some influence in the overall perception an IRCC processing agent or CBSA border officer has, including perceptions about the PR's credibility. Moreover, past history can significantly affect how H&C grounds are weighed, since previous establishment (or, in this context, the LACK of previous establishment) can be a significant factor in the H&C assessment.

But in the situation here, the older history does not appear to have much if any significance. (Caveat, an obvious caveat: if there is any indication of prior misrepresentations, whether in the citizenship application or in statements to CBSA upon arrival at a POE when returning to Canada, that can have a big influence on the PR's credibility, and the PR's credibility always looms as a very large factor.)



Overall situation and general observations:

Do you know what happens to his SIN card, drivers license, medical card, etc and also mainly his business since he is the founder if he gives up his PR?

If it's complicated keeping in mind his business would it be better to meet the 730 days requirement and then apply for renewal? And provide bank and credit card statements etc for proof?

Do you know anything with regards to my post #9 question? Is it better to fulfill 730 then? Coz as we speak we are on verge of getting business orders after all these years of hard work of startup. If giving up brings any issues for his SIN and business mainly, we can't afford that.

If any one else can suggest otherwise as to what they feel, please feel free post.

I am no expert and I am not qualified to offer personal advice; moreover, some aspects of the situation are not clear to me; so the following observations are relatively general and in some respects address situations more broadly than those at issue here.

It warrants noting that if there is little prospect of the PR coming to Canada to personally settle and stay, sometime relatively soon, and stay at least most of the time with no more than short trips abroad, the PR will probably need to consider options related to losing PR status and then applying for PR again (such as sponsored by spouse) when the PR is actually ready to come to Canada to stay.

My understanding is that the SIN remains valid. If not used for a long while, it may be considered inactive, but that just means the individual needs to re-activate it with CRA. IRCC really is not involved in this. And, indeed, the individual could continue to file tax returns in Canada and keep the SIN active.

Things like health care coverage and drivers licenses and such, are all dependent on being resident in the respective Province, and to some extent (health care for example) can also be dependent on actual presence in the Province (I suspect this PR is already not eligible for health care coverage, based on lack of residency or presence, and thus would be committing fraud if he uses the Provincial health care coverage). A non-resident (even if a PR, even if a citizen) will lose these but then, when residency in the Province is re-established, obtain those again.



The following observations are dependent, in large part, on the PR being able to settle in Canada going forward, sooner rather than later.


Overall risks; staying in Canada:

Biggest factor is whether the PR is currently in Canada and can stay in Canada. If in Canada and can stay in Canada, the path forward is relatively easy: stay until fully in compliance with the PR Residency Obligation. That will cure the breach. Do not apply for a new PR card unless and until in full compliance with the PR RO. (I suspect this option is not available, but it warrants stating.)

If the PR is not currently in Canada:

Next better case scenario, for a PR not currently in Canada, is the PR being able to return to Canada and stay in Canada. If this is possible, again stay until fully in compliance with the PR Residency Obligation. That will cure the breach. Do not apply for a new PR card unless and until in full compliance with the PR RO.

One potential problem, however, is if the PR is currently NOT in compliance with the PR RO, there is the risk, a real risk, when the PR next returns to Canada the PR might be reported upon arrival at the POE. There is this risk even if the PR is still carrying a valid PR card, and even though the PR has previously returned to Canada without being examined as to PR RO compliance.

There are several factors which influence the amount of risk. There is the risk of being examined upon arrival, and if examined factors influencing the risk of being reported. These are to a large extent the same, but not precisely so . . . for example, for the PR who is close to being in compliance, who has family well settled in Canada, some H&C factors may reduce the risk of being reported notwithstanding the risks for being examined.

Generally the sooner the PR returns to Canada the better. The sooner the return the lower the risk of being questioned about PR RO compliance. The sooner the lower the risk of being reported even if questioned. The sooner the stronger the H&C case is if the PR is issued a 44(1) Report for inadmissibility based on a failure to comply with the PR RO.

Generally the more recent the PR was in Canada (that is, the shorter the time abroad during last absence), the lower the risk of being examined regarding the RO. Similarly, the more frequently the PR has come and gone, the lower the risk. Caveat: if, however, there is a pattern of coming and going which in effect outlines or suggests the PR lives abroad and only visits Canada, this can easily trigger a PR RO examination at the POE despite frequent trips and despite having been in Canada very recently.

Again, there is this risk even for a PR carrying a valid PR card.

Ultimately, if the PR can get to Canada, without being reported, and stay, that will work.

Even if the PR needs to travel abroad some, if the PR can get to Canada and mostly stay, and only take very brief trips abroad, that can help reduce the risks by quite a lot . . . and at the same time, add days toward meeting the PR RO.

This can still apply if the PR card expires IF, if the PR can travel via the U.S. and avoid having to apply for a PR Travel Document. Obviously, for the PR who does not have a currently valid PR card there is a greater risk of being examined and reported, upon arrival at the POE when returning to Canada, but if the PR has been spending most of his time in Canada prior to the last trip abroad, and has been abroad relatively briefly, there may be a fair chance of entering Canada without being reported. Of course many other factors can influence how this goes. (Overall amount of time in Canada within the previous five years being a big factor.)

to be continued . . .

 

[dpenabill]

continued from previous post . . .

. . . and has often gone back and forth to India . . .

As suggested, how often and how recently a PR has traveled to Canada is a significant risk factor when a PR arrives at a POE upon returning to Canada. Obviously, the biggest risk factors are (1) number of days actually present in Canada during the preceding five years, and (2) whether the PR is carrying a valid PR card or not. But as noted, how recent, and overall how frequently the PR has been in Canada can be a significant factor . . . these mostly go to indicating ongoing ties to a life in Canada. So these can influence to what extent a border officer might suspect a breach of the PR RO, and these can influence any assessment of compliance, and an assessment of H&C factors, since indications of ongoing ties to a life in Canada tends to show time in Canada or, alternatively, indicate an ongoing intent and effort to establish a life in Canada.

Caveat: many forum participants reporting about this tend to overstate how "often" the PR comes to Canada, and to overestimate the duration of such periods of time in Canada. Once, even twice a year, is NOT often. That is more in the vein of periodically returning to Canada, a pattern suggesting visiting Canada more than pursuing settlement in Canada.


PR Travel Document options:

Mostly, NOT good.

More in depth observation: The PR in breach of the PR Residency Obligation is at high risk to be denied a PR Travel Document. If the PR has been in Canada within the previous year, the PR can appeal the denial of the PR TD and obtain a special PR TD to come to Canada pending the appeal. If this PR is planning to return to Canada to actually stay (at least stay but for brief trips abroad) this approach may make sense even if the H&C case is not that strong. The PR gets to remain in Canada as a PR while the appeal is pending, and for a PR with family well settled in Canada and who himself pursues a business or employment in Canada in the meantime, this can significantly improve his odds in the appeal. (More re appeal below.)

If possible, travel via the U.S. is typically a better approach. This way there is no delay in the PR arriving in Canada, so that assuming the PR is Reported upon arrival, at least the PR is in Canada and can pursue the appeal from within Canada, and can begin immediately establishing himself as staying in Canada . . . these days (pending an appeal) will NOT count in determining whether there was a breach of the PR RO, but they can be a big factor in the H&C assessment.

Leading to . . . .


Re H&C grounds and Appeal:

Unless the PR can come to Canada and stay in Canada (but for brief trips abroad) pending the appeal, the H&C based appeal in this situation will not likely succeed. It would be just be delaying the obvious. If the PR cannot come and stay, the plan will probably need to focus on a sponsored PR application in the future, when the PR is actually ready to come and stay.

In particular, pursuing an appeal (whether appealing the denial of a PR TD or appealing a 44(1) Report and Departure Order) probably only makes sense if the PR can come to Canada and settle in Canada pending the appeal.

Being able to come and stay will not guarantee the appeal is successful. Far from it. But it can make a huge difference. In this particular situation, especially, it could make the difference.

If it appears the PR is not likely to stay permanently settled in Canada, IRCC tends to see the fact of having a spouse settled in Canada as almost a negative factor, since the spouse can sponsor the PR for status IF and WHEN the PR is actually ready to settle and stay in Canada.

In contrast, if it appears the PR is settled and staying permanently in Canada, and there are other positive H&C factors, it appears IRCC will recognize that there is no reason to terminate PR status to compel an immediate sponsored PR application . . . there is no reason to make the PR and his settled-in-Canada-spouse jump through the hoops to get PR status again.

There are no guidelines so much as hinting what the tipping point might be for this. But generally it appears that for the PR who has family fully settled in Canada IF the PR can and does STAY pending the appeal, the PR has fairly good odds of keeping PR status in the appeal. In contrast, the PR in this situation who has a sketchy pattern of presence pending the appeal, let alone minimal presence, appears to have very poor odds of winning the appeal (even with some other fairly strong H&C factors). But again, there are many, many variables.